I don't think that a pursuit of transparency to the source and a pursuit of one's perception of "natural sound" end up taking the same paths nor arrive at the same destination.
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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I get your point Brian, but I think this depends in large part on the recording and the intentions of the recording engineer. There are recordings that attempt to sound natural, convincing, and like the real thing rather than effects that excite. Seek out those special recordings and an effort to both reproduce what’s on the recording and sound natural can coincide.
Transparency stands on its own, irrespective of the particular recording at hand. I'd never build a system around a small subset of music on the basis of its recording engineer's attempt to accomplish a particular sound.
I agree the transparency stands on its own. The problem is how to judge it? Sometimes what you judge as transparency is just enhancement or coloration. That is the challenge. I use a particular reference against which I gauge progress. All I’m saying is that transparency and the right recording can together present a very lifelike result and then I know I am making progress.
When I started out, I sought transparency and found that I was moving my system in a direction of detail retrieval and being impressed with new sounds. I later determined that some of that led to enhancement and colorations because the guide was audiophile recordings. Ultimately, that path was not satisfying for me. It took me a long time to understand that.
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I did not intend to establish "the" definition of "natural sound", sorry baszelio. IMHO, natural sound means natural (or true) to the recording (whatever that recording is of), and not altered by missing material or added artefact caused by my LP playback system.
For instance; I will add YouTube videos of my system playing two different songs from non-audiophile recordings (Es Paranoia Records P-5196, The Honeydrippers-volume one; and Brunswick BWLP-817, Buddy Holly - The Greatest and Latest). To me, there is some harshness in the first, boomy bass in the second. These characteristics I attribute to my crossovers (and plan to replace them with Hiraga type by the end of June). The artefacts are even worse after recording on iPhone and transfer to YouTube. Compare the sound of mine with the lovely Hayden: Les Concertos Pour Violin that Peter dropped on us back in April (13th). His sounds much more "natural" (free from artefact in my use of the word). Oh, and Peter, if you have any suggestions I am all ears.
First video:
I don’t hear any artifacts. An artifact is something that isn’t the music… Does it sound like it’s not perfectly natural? Yes. It sounds like there is some aberration.
I was tempted to respond earlier to some comments in this thread about Natural Sound but held off. Today, after reading the above comment about chamber music, I decided to throw caution to the winds and post my feelings. For what it's worth, and you can take my opinions with a grain of salt, I happen to think it IS possible to get awfully close to a true-to-life accurate reproduction of a live musical event in one's home hifi. Of course, we have to be realistic. I don't mean that you can reproduce the illusion of a full orchestra going full tilt in your listening room, or a live pipe organ, or a live rock band at 120 db or whatever. I am talking about chamber music or choral music in reasonable size venues without any PA assistance.
Let me give you two examples. [Full Disclaimer---this is a copy of a post I made on another forum several years ago.]
The first relates to a performance of Britten's "Ceremony of Carols" this past December [2017] which was performed in a somewhat small church sanctuary with about 75 people present. I sent the following email to a friend the next day:
"My wife and I went to a concert Sunday that featured one of my favorite Christmas pieces---Benjamin Britten's Ceremony of Carols. It's choral music with a single harp as the only instrumentation. To make sure I got the most out of the concert, I played my LP the day before which was the first time I've heard it on my YL speakers [YL Acoustic horn and compression driver, Jensen 15" open baffle, EV T35B tweeter] I thought the recording sounded great, which is the same reaction I had playing several other choral records Saturday.
The first surprise Sunday was that the music sounded remarkably similar to the record. Usually there are enough differences between one conductor's treatment and another's that a concert can sometimes sound rather disconcerting so to speak. But on Sunday the performance was so close to the record that I suspect they used the same recording when the chorus was learning the music.
But the second surprise was the sound. I realize I am biased but I swear my ears were hearing nearly the same sound quality as when I heard the LP the day before. Closing my eyes the sound was virtually the same---same soundstage (we were close to the middle of the church), the same harp sound, the same tonal balance, close to the same detail in the voices and almost the same dynamics. OK, it wasn't exactly the same. The hi-fi had slightly smeared sibilants, wasn't quite as detailed, and the really loud passages had some glare and didn't get quite as loud. Plus the LP has some surface noise (and traffic noise outside the church where the recording was made). But the important thing is that the record played on my system was remarkably similar to the live performance."
The second example was from a few months before that when I attended a concert at our local university. I sent another friend this email:
"I had an interesting experience last night. I went to a concert at the university where we heard a trio consisting of a violin, piano and cello (and a soprano on one piece). The room was a smaller performing venue approximately 35 feet wide by 60 feet deep, and there was no electronic amplification.
Afterwards, I played one of my favorite records which has two Beethoven cello sonatas performed by Pablo Casals. Putting aside the obvious differences between a trio and a duet, Beethoven and Schumann, and Pablo Casals and the local cellist, I have to say that my hifi system sounds surprisingly realistic. The overall tonal balance, resolution of tonal colors, dynamics, detail and spatial performance were all very, very similar. The live sound was richer, more dynamic and faster on leading edges. But not by much (so sayeth the owner of the hifi). In particular, I was surprised by how coherent the piano sounds over my system."
My speakers at the time of the second example above were some earlier speakers (same Jensen 15" but in a vented cabinet, and Altec 32 horn with 802 driver) not the YL Acoustic open baffle speakers described in the first example. The rest of the equipment was nearly the same. I will admit that the illusion of a live musical event occurs much more often with the YL Acoustic horn speakers, but the fact that the Jensen/Altecs can sometimes perform the same trick shows that it isn't necessary to spend a lot of money to get the illusion.
My point in posting this is to say that with the right type of music and a carefully chosen hifi system, it is possible to get a close simulation to the live event in one's home. At least, that is this person's opinion.
I have heard pretty darn close to like a live performance twice. Both times were on systems with speakers of significant scale. Physically very large. I have heard really nice on smaller systems. Very natural tone. Very lifelike in you really hear the instruments for what they are. But smaller systems that I have heard just don't create an allusion I am there.
I feel, sounding like the real thing, as in sounding natural, is a different concept from scaling up to create the sense of being at a live show.
I also find when I leave someones home who is trying to create the sense of being at a live show, my ears are fatigued afterwards and sensitive to noise of any type for a few days.
For small chamber, often, not always, I prefer listening to great performances on a good system rather than live performances. The simpler the music gets, the lesser the divergence between a good system and live, so a great performance recorded can more easily be preferred to a mediocare one live. And even simple well set up systems, not necessarily expensive ones, will be able to achieve this.
Having just heard Isabel Faust and Melnikov perform various Beethoven sonatas in good acoustics at Wigmore hall over two days, I would prefer to listen to Heiftez (kreutzer) Oistrakh/Oborin, and Szeryng/Rubinstein. Some of these sound great even if you play off good channels on youtube like Cgoroo to a soundbar. You also get a choice to hear some rare ones from Max Rostal, Ede Zathureczky, Di Vito, and George Enseco (his Beethiven Sonata LPs can cost well over a 1000 have even sold for 4k+) if you have a collection like the General's, but the point is you can pick and choose excellent performances that sound great acoustically and stun you emotionally.
I would suggest on a lower cost trial, get crossover from Werner Jargusch in Germany. with one iteration they should work well and will barely cost you a 1000. Else pay Misho to visit you and fix it. the Hiraga solution is not going to work.
Having just heard Isabel Faust and Melnikov perform various Beethoven sonatas in good acoustics at Wigmore hall over two days, I would prefer to listen to Heiftez (kreutzer) Oistrakh/Oborin, and Szeryng/Rubinstein. Some of these sound great even if you play off good channels on youtube like Cgoroo to a soundbar. You also get a choice to hear some rare ones from Max Rostal, Ede Zathureczky, Di Vito, and George Enseco (his Beethiven Sonata LPs can cost well over a 1000 have even sold for 4k+) if you have a collection like the General's, but the point is you can pick and choose excellent performances that sound great acoustically and stun you emotionally.
I would suggest on a lower cost trial, get crossover from Werner Jargusch in Germany. with one iteration they should work well and will barely cost you a 1000. Else pay Misho to visit you and fix it. the Hiraga solution is not going to work.
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I learned this lesson when I switched from my Magico mini monitors to the floorstanding Q3 model and then to my corner horns. In many cases the size of the speaker matters for scale of the presentation. A lot of it has to do with the sense of ease and projection of energy into the room. A larger room helps also. I would love to hear my corner horns in a really large space.
An important characteristic of natural sound is the ability of the system to scale up and down. This has nothing to do with image size getting bigger or smaller, but a portrayal of the size of the venue, number of instruments, and relative energy from different instruments. Relative scale of the instruments should stay consistent as the volume increases or decreases and the scale of the performance changes. Image size shouldn’t change but the projection of the energy should reflect the scale of the performance. I think image size has more to do with the mic placement and arrangement.
Scale is an important aspect of natural sound and would make for an interesting discussion and thread topic. I am still learning to understand this issue and formulating my thoughts.
I appreciate your opinion that "simple well set up systems", "not necessarily expensive ones", playing "excellent performances" will "sound great acoustically" and "stun (me) emotionally". I also would like to thank you for the references to classical music you feel are "excellent performances", I will certainly look out for those recordings.
I also recognise that you did not say that "simple well set up systems", "playing excellent performances", would sound indistinguishable from live so there we are in agreement.
As to obtaining "Natural Sound" (or better sound) you suggest I contact Werner Jargusch in Germany for a different crossover than the Hiraga style crossover that Pete Riggle is building for my Altec A7s.
Let me show my reasons for choosing Hiraga style crossovers from Pete Riggle: from a write up in Positive Feedback (Jeffs Place):
"I was absolutely blown away by Pete Riggle's A7 VOTTs last week. Pete built a variation of the Hiraga crossover that he adapted to the A7's, and he used iron core inductors, so you may be on to something there. Pete's A7 system is on of the best hi-fi systems I've ever heard. It was love at first listen for me." "Pete also has some capacitors that he's discovered that are really something special, and that is part of his secret for good sound too, I think. It doesn't hurt that Pete has six decades of experience modifying and designing loudspeakers, and once owned a loudspeaker company." "His A7's are rich, warm, musical, and utterly captivating to listen to music with. If I can get my A5's sounding that good I'll be in heaven!"
Then there is a glowing review of the system owned by the designer of the Hiraga crossover (Mr. Jean Hiraga) in Do It Yourself Audio, by the Moderator, "Pano".
"These are my favourite speakers of all time. Never heard any other speaker of any size, shape, technology or vintage that sounds more like real live music than these."
Gary Fisher wrote about his restoration of a pair of A5's (for which he originally used Werner Jagusch's auto former based crossovers, saying he:
"found them (using Werner Jagusch crossovers) to sound pretty nice with the high-frequency volume set on the sixth terminal screw from the left, with the roll-off starting frequency dial set at the 9 o'clock position. Those settings gave a rich, dark, sweet presentation to the A5 VOTTs which was nicely musical."
However, Gary only experimented with the Jagush crossovers until his Hiraga crossovers arrived. He did not stick with the Werner Jagusch's auto former based crossovers but instead used instead the "'Real Sound' version of the Hiraga-style A5 crossover circuit from Yazakisan." , changing slightly the design by replacing the 20 Ohm variable resister at the R3 position with a 30 Ohm wire wound variable resistor in order to obtain a more seamless high frequency integration (as learned through experimenting with the Jagusch crossover).
By the way, I tried to contact Werner Jagusch a couple of times after you suggested buying his wooden tractrix horns for the treble, but he never responded to those enquiries.
Yours is not the only suggestion for obtaining "Natural Sound" from my system. Two others on this site have advised that in order to get "Natural Sound" that I need to change back from the dedicated circuit, Furutech power sockets and plugs and ZenWave power cords I bought, to the stock power cords and sockets.
I think I need to point out that in hi-fi, as in all things I suspect, there is an agonising paradox of ambiguity. Everyone has preferences, and reasons for those preferences, but like the story on another thread I read about a reviewer comparing two amplifiers who thought it perfectly legitimate to move his review speakers between each audition in order to present each amplifier in its' best light, what convinces some of fact will not convince others, and I now know I can not trust anything suggested to me by experts any more.
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I have read all Altec posts on various forums from Lansing heritage, Altec host board, audio karma, DIY audio, the French melaudia, and many others. I have also heard some hiraga based systems. I am done with googling and seeing positive feedback to think it's good. At best I use it as leads to go and listen. Anyway. If your hiraga sounds magic we will know from audio.
It doesn't help that hiraga crossovers are implemented by various people who might be doing their own screw ups. It is not like Hiraga himself comes and does it.
Also this should be directed to your thread as this is off topic for Peter's now, I only replied to your posts.
Btw I never suggested buying Werner's horns, he makes crossovers. The wooden horns were made by Markus klug
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Yep. If youve got the space for it, corner horns is the way go. Loads the room with sound like nothing else.
A quick continuation of the power delivery discussion. After having redone wiring and outlets, I had noticed the changes previously mentioned. This past weekend, I did a simple breaker swap on these circuits. Arc fault is code in California and I've wanted to see if and how they would affect sound from my systems. I swapped them out with standard high quality Siemens breakers and hear a very noticeable change. I'll leave it at that for now and just add that I won't be reinstalling the arc fault breakers on these circuits.
Oh and by the way, I picked up a few "famed" NOS MM carts to play with. These are in the 35-40 years old range. Should be fun. The stylii are user serviceable and easily replaced with Jico and in one case s Soundsmith stylus if I want to go that route. But the OG stylii are in great shape.
Oh and by the way, I picked up a few "famed" NOS MM carts to play with. These are in the 35-40 years old range. Should be fun. The stylii are user serviceable and easily replaced with Jico and in one case s Soundsmith stylus if I want to go that route. But the OG stylii are in great shape.
Here are a couple of new videos. The first is the vintage Technics MM that ddk gave me. The second is my latest vdH Colibri GC "Elite", the second of two. They are on the same back arm, both going directly into my Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe phono stage. I love the music, but unfortunately it is the clear vinyl heavy reissue at 45 RPM.
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Excellent comparison videos Peter, whilst the Technics is pretty good my vote has to go to the Colibri.
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