Natural Sound

[microstrip]

Well that sums up why we are likely to never agree on this hobby, micro...you look at it from a resale or bang for buck perspective rather than one technology gives superior sound over anoth

No technology gives superior sound, so we pick according to our preference and wallet.

Based on psychoacoustic studies it is becoming clear that single ended topology (I won't necessarily exclude transistors) is more psychoacoustically preferred from it's distortion properties. I am like Bill, once I went SET I (almost) never looked back. Made sure my speakers fit the purpose of supporting the amps.

Your famous psychoacoustic studies that are ignored becasue of a world conspiracy against SET ... SET sound is a preference of a few, simply. We should respect it and I like when people tell us why they like it.

Do you not hear the clear difference in character that even the best transistors have vs. the best tubes (SET or PP triode)? Even amps like CH Precision, which are widely regarded as among the best SS, are not close in tonality and dimensionality of even a decent SET. Even a dense tonality SS amp like BAT or Vitus do not sound remotely similar to a SET or even a good PP triode amp (in Class A of course).

Yes, they all sound different. Even the 8 different settings (triode/pentode, four different levels of feedback) of the VTL Siegfried sound different. I know what I prefer in my system and have explained it elsewhere.

Even extreme class amps like the big darTZeel sound fundamentally different to, for example the Lamm ML3. I am reminded by Michael Fremer's review that painted the stark contrast. IMO, one of those is intrinsically better and it is the one with the better psychoacoustic distortion profile.

Yes, I know which you prefer, thanks.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I really liked the LTA MZ3 set with the Duo Mezzos.(1 watt!). But it and the other SET's always sounded distorted (even if pleasant 2nd harmonics) compared to the appropriate SS. I think the tendency is to try to balance the perceived "hardness" of horns with bloomy distortion. I found I preferred the pure, clean sound of the Bakoon which doesn't sound like it is balancing or covering anything. Just my relatively limited experience.

I’d just suggest horns are such variably nuanced creatures Wil… as are SET. I have relatively light experience with both composite and metal horns and by far the most time I’ve spent is with timber horns and even they all seem to be rather variable beasts with intrinsically different natures and characteristics. SET is also that for me.

To explore all the way across such a diverse spectrum could be the work of a very full lifetime. I figure that once you hit on the mix of component elements within the topologies that marry to work in harmony and with an essential rightness you can then play within that set. David seems to explore this way and even in Peter’s videos of his Utah trip while the horn setups in each are identifiably characteristically different but the shared DNA and an identifiable essential familiar quality seems to carry through.

So for me it is about exploring snd experiencing broadly to find a personal rightness and I can only suggest that you moved on from your Duo Mezzos with Bakoon so possibly hadn't found that right connection with them. While I’ve also appreciated SS with the ribbon panels my material palette seems to have settled now on SET with wood horns and OB. Field coils may be the next element to try in with these

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yep

I’d just suggest horns are such variably nuanced creatures Wil… as are SET. I have relatively light experience with both composite and metal horns and by far the most time I’ve spent is with timber horns and even they all seem to be rather variable beasts with intrinsically different natures and characteristics. SET is also that for me.

To explore all the way across such a diverse spectrum could be the work of a very full lifetime. I figure that once you hit on the mix of component elements within the topologies that marry to work in harmony and with an essential rightness you can then play within that set. David seems to explore this way and even in Peter’s videos of his Utah trip while the horn setups in each are identifiably characteristically different but the shared DNA and an identifiable essential familiar quality seems to carry through.

So for me it is about exploring snd experiencing broadly to find a personal rightness and I can only suggest that you moved on from your Duo Mezzos with Bakoon so possibly hadn't found that right connection with them. While I’ve also appreciated SS with the ribbon panels my material palette seems to have settled now on SET with wood horns and OB. Field coils may be the next element to try in with these

Graham - which field coils you looking at? Voxativ or Rullit or GML or something else?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Just in early research mode but yes had been travelling along those lines Bill plus WVL and Supravox… would love to get the thoughts of others and will venture into a new thread before getting too much further into it. DIY horns, so many choices so much opportunity lol

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Just in early research mode but yes had been travelling along those lines Bill plus WVL and Supravox… would love to get the thoughts of others and will venture into a new thread before getting too much further into it. DIY horns, so many choices so much opportunity lol

Please start a new thread on this if you can. Keen to chat.

 

[morricab]

Good question. I felt what I was hearing was a slightly exaggerated texture from the LTA. The LTA also seemed to play a little slower than the Bakoon. My analogy was the Bakoon sounded like the band got a good nights sleep and just had a nice espresso. The tube base LTA sounded more like the band had been on the road for two months and just had another round at the bar. Both sound good.

Exaggerated texture compared to what? The Bakoon or real live instruments? Most gear gets texture and tone wrong by having much too little compared to live instruments, which have much richer tone than most Hifi.

 

[morricab]

Just in early research mode but yes had been travelling along those lines Bill plus WVL and Supravox… would love to get the thoughts of others and will venture into a new thread before getting too much further into it. DIY horns, so many choices so much opportunity lol

I really like my Supravox DIY horn setup. The 215-2000 works so incredibly well in a TQWT bass loading and it is a super smooth widebander and blends easily with the horn.

 

[morricab]

No technology gives superior sound, so we pick according to our preference and wallet.



Your famous psychoacoustic studies that are ignored becasue of a world conspiracy against SET ... SET sound is a preference of a few, simply. We should respect it and I like when people tell us why they like it.



Yes, they all sound different. Even the 8 different settings (triode/pentode, four different levels of feedback) of the VTL Siegfried sound different. I know what I prefer in my system and have explained it elsewhere.



Yes, I know which you prefer, thanks.

We will have to agree to disagree...I think there is superior technology that works best for human hearing...I just think you have no compass to steer your decisions.

Actually LAMM uses psychoacoustic models and I just read that a man Italian company , Riviera, who makes tube pre and hybrid amps , claim to use psychoacoustic studies to base their designs from.

SET is now no longer fringe at least in the serious audio circles...but I assume you knew that. In fact the number of available choices has grown dramatically, which indicates a lot of users of this technology.

 

[Lampie519]

I think there is superior technology that works best for human hearing

I think so too but it needs to be experienced and cannot be discussed over....
My designs follow an idea that i have "invented" as i have not seen it anywhere else implemented. I see an amp as a "unity" and every "restrain" beeing feedback etc. will be heard as compression of some kind but it is sometimes requied to keep stability. Then this needs to be compensated in an other way to keep the amp dynamic.
I try to imagine how signals will flow through the entire amp (especially after a night out in Amsterdam) so i can tackle phase and timing issues within the amp or any audio device i try to create...

So most simple amps can be very good in this respect but could be even better if signal losses in transformers etc. are dealt with properly.

One of the pioneers was McIntosh and later Tim de Paravicini (maybe others i do not know of).

 

[Kingrex]

Sounds like bad QC at Audion...

Not the case. Phil owned these for 20 years. He and Bob Hovland had a lot of hands in them. They really screwed them up. I just found out yesterday that someone removed a cap on one amp that went to the driver, and never replaced it. The cut wire soldered to the ground is still there. What pisses me off is these amps were with the manufacturer certified repair tech in the USA and he did not catch the 2 amps inputs are different. Or he did, and did not care enough to determine what is correct.

Graeme with Audion has been very helpful. Audion custome service out of France has been excellent. I suffer from no local tech in WA state. But Yaeger Audio is taking equipment for repair again. He has built all sorts of big bottle amps from the ground up. He knows what he is doing. Unlike the guitat repair guy who had been helping me, who told Audion they did not know what they were talking about, then put 10 watt resistors in a 25 watt circuit and a crap cap where Audion said it was critical a quality cap was utilized.

So no, its not the amp or Audion QC. Its the previous owner and poor technicians getting their hands in them . I actually have hope now these will come back to their glory days. And better. They better as I now have around $12k into them.

But as I noted earlier, and other threads, they really sing. Even with their nagging issues, they are the most natural and pure amps I have ever owned. They easly best CJ, McIntosh, Rogue Altec and Ampsandsound for purity and natural tone. The CJ had far greater balls. Just beasts. Sit back and hang tight. That can be exciting. But the Audion has much better finess and accuracy to not only the source, but what an instrument sounds like live. They are much more a natural sound amp than any others I have owned.
I would actually highly recommend the Black Shadow II. But, unlike others here, I have only owned one, 845 SET amp. So my opinion is not based upon experience with similar type amps. Only with how a 845 SET compares to PP tube amps.

 

[KeithR]

SET is now no longer fringe at least in the serious audio circles...but I assume you knew that. In fact the number of available choices has grown dramatically, which indicates a lot of users of this technology.

There was 1 SET at the hifi show last weekend. There isn't an audio dealer in Southern California that stocks a SET amplifier. It's a very niche group still and practically no mainstream speakers are efficient enough to use one.

ps. the new Zingali horns on Cary 805 SET wasn't good

 

[microstrip]

I think the reason micro laughed at my post was at this statement, he saw himself there, 4 amps and none of them drive his speaker properly. He will try devialet next

No, I laughed because I laugh of funny things. Some people seem to have nothing better to do than misleadingly divagating about others. I have four amps that can drive the XLF's with excellence, one that can't in my current room. My game was which I should select and keep. And I have already tried the Devialet, several versions.

 

[Lampie519]

Graeme with Audion has been very helpful. Audion custome service out of France has been excellent.

I hope it will all get sorted out soon .....

Main issue i feel with any repair or service is the transparency in what has been done on a specific item so at least you know why there are wires cut and left in the amp and not been removed (best is to discuss when working on the amp and not afterwards...) .

If a technician is not up to the job he/she also should be fair and say so....

That is my point of view .....

 

[microstrip]

We will have to agree to disagree...I think there is superior technology that works best for human hearing...I just think you have no compass to steer your decisions.

As long as you say it is just your thoughts, no problem.

Actually LAMM uses psychoacoustic models and I just read that a man Italian company , Riviera, who makes tube pre and hybrid amps , claim to use psychoacoustic studies to base their designs from.

Claims are just claims. I understand why they do not disclose them, but they are of no use to support any position. Just FIY, the sound of the L2 reference is very different from the LL1.

SET is now no longer fringe at least in the serious audio circles...but I assume you knew that. In fact the number of available choices has grown dramatically, which indicates a lot of users of this technology.

A lot of users in the serious audio circles? Now I know how you define serious audiophiles - those who own SET's.

 

[PeterA]

Guys, I go out for a five hour sail and I come back to see four pages of completely off-topic discussion on my system thread. What is going on here? This is not the WBF chat room where are you can relax with a beer and chat about whatever the heck you want. this is my system thread.

Could you please take the chat somewhere else and try to keep this thread on the subject of my new stereo system? Honestly this is getting quite frustrating.

 

[Lampie519]

A lot of users in the serious audio circles? Now I know how you define serious audiophiles - those who own SET's.

I own SET's but do not use them.... does this qualify ?

 

[Ron Resnick]

On members' individual system threads we try to tack to a tighter standard of relevance to the thread. Peter has requested this on this thread numerous times, and most recently in Post #1,835.

Please confine your comments to something directly relevant to this thread, or please feel free to start a new thread on any topic of your choice.

Thank you.

 

[wil]

On members' individual system threads we try to tack to a tighter standard of relevance to the thread. Peter has requested this on this thread numerous times, and most recently in Post #1,835.

Please confine your comments to something directly relevant to this thread, or please feel free to start a new thread on any topic of your choice.

Thank you.

Ok, ok, I'm heading over to the "Cable Lifts" thread...

 

[tima]

With this new system, I had the ML2 first and then the Vitavox, but really it could have gone either way. If I had the Vitavox, I would seek out the ML2. Both are excellent, but the combination is truly special.

And having the LL1.1 Sig in the mix lets the downstream components exercise their potential.

 

[PeterA]

And having the LL1.1 Sig in the mix lets the downstream components exercise their potential.

Tim, I have the LL1 Signature but I suspect you are right.