Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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Really? The number of times it is mentioned on this forum is only next to natural sound, pinpoint, and black.
As I have replied on those threads, if you play back the sound on the tape where a good engineer has been involved, you will get as close to the original event as possible, which will feel live, and hence be pleasing to the audiophile. All good Decca etc original recordings, for example, are pleasing to the audiophile
I think we are putting the list to different purposes. I agree 1) is likely not possible and 2) is unknowable. I view the objectives are aspirational and theoretical, as opposed to practical prescriptions one can methodically implement.
But I think we should remove this discussion to a different thread, as it does not directly relate to Peter's new system
All hifi is coloured to me and only a acoustic live performance is natural.
Sure, and how is this helping here ;-) ?
We all would like to enjoy private concerts all the time as you may do.
Unfortunately for most of us this is not an option.....
Yes I understand.the best hifi is becoming a lot more natural and closer to the acoustic live performance.
Theoretical or Aspirational v prescriptive possibility. Okay, I understand that. The way I understood the primary thread, Toward a Theory To Increase Mutual Understanding and Predictability it was a list of what some audiophiles (more than a handful) "were determining, understanding and actually stating explicitly" as an objective.
I have no problem taking the discussion elsewhere per Peter's request. In this thread Peter responded to you about that list in post #1249, addressing the 4th item, offering
So that much does relate in a thread labeled "Natural Sound" as it is Peter's entry to the list. I offered the alternative of "a sound that is believable".
The more I think about the title of this thread the more I wonder if it could have been named "PeterA's Natural Sound" or perhaps "Natural Sound - PeterA's New System Thread." I realize that doesn't quite parallel the name of his earlied system thread, "Sublime Sound". Given the present title and many of the posts within, it will forever be a place for discussing the topic of Natural Sound, not strictly in the context of Peter's system. This is not meant as a criticism and I'm not telling Peter what to name threads, but solely for the chance to keep the general topic separate from a system thread. The topic of Natural Sound as laid out by @ddk predates Peter's fine instantiation.
To your point, Peter had a thread "David Karmeli's Natural Sound in Utah", and as far as I know, the meaning of Natural Sound was not discussed there.
One can agree or disagree with this - at least it is a cogent position. Ignore the agalmatophiliacs.
Moving back closer to Peter's system thread. There is not just 1 single set of specific gears that once assembled properly will get the natural sound Peter and Ddk talking about. Selection of gears will vary the degree of that natural sound. I believe many gears will bring about attributes of natural sound that Peter wrote in bullet points earlier. But Equipment A might give a higher degree of .... than B. While some gears will prohibit or mask those attributes. Gears that ddk recommends are what he has selected through his life long experience of trying. One has to go back and see if his goal is to build a system to have a character or sound presentation as those bullet points peter described if choosing ddk's recommended gears. My speakers are very different from Peter's and not what ddk would recommend. To him and to me too there are speakers that can do the job a lot cheaper. My phono is also a different brand from Peter's which I don't know what brand he is using now. The way I see it the sound of my system definitely has a different tone from his. His Vitavox has better bass. But I believe both system cover all bullet points of natural sound...only a matter of different in degree in each attribute. I never wrote I changed my speaker position from toe-in to almost toe straight too because I didn't want Peter to get too confident back then . Somehow the sound turned less "concentrated" and this make the presentation further more at ease and calls for even less attention. By ease I don't mean vintage tone that is too easy to the ears. I mean music just play in front of me like you walk pass a band playing in a hotel lobby. You realize it is there but you could just disregard its presence. This doesn't mean the presentation is boring. Part of the natural sound Peter and ddk talk about in this thread is about "contrast." Natural sound includes tremendous contrast of instruments especially in orchestra music that make the sound so interesting without adding more dynamic. For example, my phono is probably considered lame by many. You directly compare with three other phonos you probably find it not the most dynamic, best vocal, best etc. of the obvious. But if you listen long enough you would realize this phono with theTelefunken has super clarity and contrast that make each recording very different without homogeneity. What I am saying is an example of using different gear but lead to one of the attribute of natural sound.
The important thing is to have heard the sound once. Call it natural sound or whatever you will term it. This sound presentation might lock-in to you and thing start to click making you see a different direction you may want to use as North star. For me the approach takes me to a more believable sound. I still have area that I want to improve the sound of my system but I am just so not in the mood to put any more money into my system.
Apology to Peter for writing about myself in his thread. Apologize for my messy writing. I blame it on my wife who does not let me have time for organizing my thought.
. Somehow the sound turned less "concentrated" and this make the presentation further more at ease and calls for even less attention. By ease I don't mean vintage tone that is too easy to the ears. I mean music just play in front of me like you walk pass a band playing in a hotel lobby. You realize it is there but you could just disregard its presence. This doesn't mean the presentation is boring. Part of the natural sound Peter and ddk talk about in this thread is about "contrast." Natural sound includes tremendous contrast of instruments especially in orchestra music that make the sound so interesting without adding more dynamic. For example, my phono is probably considered lame by many. You directly compare with three other phonos you probably find it not the most dynamic, best vocal, best etc. of the obvious. But if you listen long enough you would realize this phono with theTelefunken has super clarity and contrast that make each recording very different without homogeneity. What I am saying is an example of using different gear but lead to one of the attribute of natural sound.The important thing is to have heard the sound once. Call it natural sound or whatever you will term it. This sound presentation might lock-in to you and thing start to click making you see a different direction you may want to use as North star. For me the approach takes me to a more believable sound. I still have area that I want to improve the sound of my system but I am just so not in the mood to put any more money into my system.
Apology to Peter for writing about myself in his thread. Apologize for my messy writing. I blame it on my wife who does not let me have time for organizing my thought.
Nice post, Tang.
This may not be a fair question and I don't want to raise 'V' topic but do you think you can hear that sound through a video? I was impressed by Peter's recording of Scherhazade with the vintage cartridge and his new system.
It seems that some of the best gear from the past was also more natural and closer to the acoustic live performance.
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Moving back closer to Peter's system thread. There is not just 1 single set of specific gears that once assembled properly will get the natural sound Peter and Ddk talking about. Selection of gears will vary the degree of that natural sound. I believe many gears will bring about attributes of natural sound that Peter wrote in bullet points earlier. But Equipment A might give a higher degree of .... than B. While some gears will prohibit or mask those attributes. Gears that ddk recommends are what he has selected through his life long experience of trying. One has to go back and see if his goal is to build a system to have a character or sound presentation as those bullet points peter described if choosing ddk's recommended gears. My speakers are very different from Peter's and not what ddk would recommend. To him and to me too there are speakers that can do the job a lot cheaper. My phono is also a different brand from Peter's which I don't know what brand he is using now. The way I see it the sound of my system definitely has a different tone from his. His Vitavox has better bass. But I believe both system cover all bullet points of natural sound...only a matter of different in degree in each attribute. I never wrote I changed my speaker position from toe-in to almost toe straight too because I didn't want Peter to get too confident back then
The important thing is to have heard the sound once. Call it natural sound or whatever you will term it. This sound presentation might lock-in to you and thing start to click making you see a different direction you may want to use as North star. For me the approach takes me to a more believable sound. I still have area that I want to improve the sound of my system but I am just so not in the mood to put any more money into my system.
Apology to Peter for writing about myself in his thread. Apologize for my messy writing. I blame it on my wife who does not let me have time for organizing my thought.
Tang, There was nothing, or perhaps very little, you could have said back then that would have changed my impressions of what I was learning from doing those experiments with toe-in and other stuff. David did not tell me what to listen for or what I would hear. He simply told me to ask myself if the change made it sound more natural.
I have an all Lamm chain, specifically the LP2.1 Deluxe phono stage, LL1 Signature preamp, and the original ML2 amps. I am curious how you would describe the differences you hear from videos between the bass quality from our two systems. I agree with you that much of the qualities of a natural presentation can be discerned from the videos, particularly whether or not the system sounds balanced. Also nuance and a general sense of tonal rightness and resolution and ease.
Another observation I would make from afar regarding the different ways one can set up a natural sounding system is to simply look at the collection of gear in your audio laboratory. From here, it seems your AS2000 gets the most use, perhaps by far. And you once had quite a number of arms and cartridges. It seems you have migrated toward primarily the SME 3012R and the Opus/Colibri combinations. Is that true? If so, is it because you find that gear to produce the most natural sound from your system?
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Allm
i am using a Spectral DMC 5, the tape input specifically for digital into the rebuilt DNA 1 with astonishing results. The pre is from 1986.
I totally agree. Hence my response to micro when he suggested that I was saying the only place to hear natural sound is in Cedar City Utah. I suggested that is not the case but I also suggested that hearing it there is indeed different than hearing it in other systems. It is tough to compete against the Bionor which is 114 Db efficient
This may be the most insightful post of this entire thread.
Not only me can hear. I know Bonzo and Gian can hear for sure. One needs to becareful and really know about the character of speakers he uses to play back video to lessen the chance of misinterpreting the sound. We used to send videos we personally took from interestng systems (well most of them were from Ked) to our whatapp group. We made comments and cross-check if they were consistent to whoever made the video heard when he was there. We cannot go listen to every interesting system or gear. There are too many and they are all over the world. We find videos can give us "some indication" of what is interesting and what is not in order to pursue further gear/ system investigation.
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