Natural Sound

[PeterA]

I have nothing for or against this topic. Any person is free to follow their amp - sub strategy. I was surprised at your "backup" comment as I have seen NOS tubes and LPs backed up, but never the same model of amps and phono. Multiple amps of different models, yes. But no biggie.

I also have back up vintage cartridges. Perhaps what you are undervaluing or do not understand is the increasingly rare nature of the original Lamm ML2 amplifier. A few years ago they came up every now and then. Now they do not come up for sale and there is a non-public exchange/market between those who have them and those who want them. It is the same with the LP1 and LL1. I suspect the same is true with Neumann cartridges and other rare coveted audio items.

I regret not buying a pair of vintage speakers for a potential second system when they were available. I mentioned them to a friend and he snatched them up. Now you can’t find them anywhere.

When David told me he had a pair of original ML2 that were not part of his own supply, I jumped on the opportunity to own them as back ups. They are just too good sounding and now too difficult to find. I hope that will help you understand why I bought a spare pair.

 

[Lagonda]

Too complex design not my cup of tea, a good two stage phono + with sut and good power supply works works just as well. keep the circuit simple my credo. The first set of tubes has been in there build 2014, no problems.

Thats what my repair guy said too, "with all those tubes and other components, something will fail soon again " and he loves tubes in his own system.

 

[Lagonda]

Why do you keep looking at American products when in EU?

I am not looking at American product anymore, not tube products anyway. Pretty sure my next external phono is going to be SS, unless i fall and hit my head again !

 

[bonzo75]

I am not looking at American product anymore, not tube products anyway. Pretty sure my next external phono is going to be SS, unless i fall and hit my head again !

there are a lot of broken SS amps tough to repair. You have to get the official techie to repair them.

 

[Lagonda]

there are a lot of broken SS amps tough to repair. You have to get the official techie to repair them.

I have one set of great sounding SS monos i run 5 hours a day with my TV. I have owned them from new, bought them 37 years ago. They have never needed service. My big MBL's barely get warm, and have been stable the five years i have had them. My Krell gear broke down all the time.

 

[morricab]

I have one set of great sounding SS monos i run 5 hours a day with my TV. I have owned them from new, bought them 37 years ago. They have never needed service. My big MBL's barely get warm, and have been stable the five years i have had them. My Krell gear broke down all the time.

i saw a lot of dead Mark Levinson, Krell, Accuphase...etc.

 

[bonzo75]

i saw a lot of dead Mark Levinson, Krell, Accuphase...etc.

there are complaints on Dagostino, constellation, and audionet I know of.

 

[Salectric]

Anyone who has repeated problems with tube gear (ARC, CJ and now perhaps Lamm) bought the wrong tube gear. The only commercial tube equipment I now own (Emotive Audio Epifania linestage and Vita amps) has operated flawlessly for 16 years and 13 years respectively. My homemade equipment has been equally reliable. In fact, in my 50 years of using tube Hifi equipment I have never had a repair problem. Tubes don’t last forever of course but I don’t consider tube replacement a repair.

 

[morricab]

Brad, did you see any dead Pass Labs? I had many models over many years with zero issues. They seem extremely reliable.

no, not really...but I have seen/heard far less of it. Not many of my friends ever owned it. We always found it so-so sounding and went for alternatives.

 

[bonzo75]

there are complaints on Dagostino, constellation, and audionet I know of.

Also Soulution

 

[bazelio]

Also Soulution

Gryphon hasn't been known for reliability over the years either.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Bryston used to be indestructible, I had several older power amplifiers upgraded by the sales department (sun audio ,munich) st-circuit mod and never paid anything for it. Unfortunately there is now other management and sales..pity over.
So good amps

 

[Steve williams]

Anyone who has repeated problems with tube gear (ARC, CJ and now perhaps Lamm) bought the wrong tube gear. The only commercial tube equipment I now own (Emotive Audio Epifania linestage and Vita amps) has operated flawlessly for 16 years and 13 years respectively. My homemade equipment has been equally reliable. In fact, in my 50 years of using tube Hifi equipment I have never had a repair problem. Tubes don’t last forever of course but I don’t consider tube replacement a repair.

The issue is being sure you have back ups of every tube you use because when you are least expecting it you might hear the gun shot explosions in your speaker as a tube implodes. There is nothing scarier when you are listening and this suddenly happens. Short of this I have owned Lamm gear for well over 20 years and short of a blown tube, I have never had an issue with my Lamm gear

 

[DasguteOhr]

Hasn’t James Tanner who is currently running the company been there for decades?

I don't know. I was referring more to the sales level, there is still a 20 year guarantee but there are no more free upgrades since Sun Audio no longer has it in its range.

 

[treitz3]

Does anyone reading this think that imaging is involved with the sense of presence one experiences from a system?

Yes. Why wouldn't it be? I sure wouldn't want to listen to the equivalent of musical wallpaper. A true 3-D experience that renders the play back is much more preferable to said 2-D wallpaper play back.

When you can "see" the keystrokes playing on a piano and "see" where the piano is placed and how it is placed. Then see the performer singing behind said piano with other instruments playing behind them in a 3-D field? It offers a more realistic reproductive effort.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

Yes. Why wouldn't it be? I sure wouldn't want to listen to the equivalent of musical wallpaper. A true 3-D experience that renders the play back is much more preferable to said 2-D wallpaper play back.

When you can "see" the keystrokes playing on a piano and "see" where the piano is placed and how it is placed. Then see the performer singing behind said piano with other instruments playing behind them in a 3-D field? It offers a more realistic reproductive effort.

Tom

Hello Tom, I agree that imaging should not be flat and two dimensional for a natural presentation of imaging. There should be a sense of presence and dimension and identifiable location and scale for a natural presentation of imaging. I shared my thoughts in what I wrote about 10 pages ago:

PeterA​

Well-Known Member​

• Nov 10, 2023
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• #4,676

morricab said:
Where is that line Peter? For me, for imaging to be natural it has to have volume. The precision shoukd be there too but it has to be grainless and 3D. Presence in the room. Big bloomy vague images is simply wrong for most recordings…you might like it better because it is more like distant live listening but from a recording it is usually wrong. It indicates you accept a clear system distortion that happens to fit with your aesthetic sense. That’s fine.

Flat images and soundstage is also a distortion of what is on good recordings and demonstrates a system that doesn’t process ambient and low level information correctly…either through omission or commission or both.
Click to expand...

I do not think it is a line but rather a range depending on system and recording, just like distance to the performers and direct versus indirect sound.

The most convincing imaging I have heard in terms of realism and believability was on David Karmeli’s main system with Bionors. Their was real presence and mass, image specificity and scale, natural location distinctions.

Yet, David never mentions pinpoint imaging. He refers to what I have heard from systems with very precise pinpoint imaging as “pinprick imaging”. I can relate.

I used to have that kind of effect with my old system caused by how my Magico Q3s were set up and with the Transparent wires and cords. The acoustic treatments also contributed. After I reposition those speakers and change power and wires and treatment, the sense of presence and imaging improved and was much more realistic and closer to what I hear live, especially fairly close to my experience with live chamber music but also classical from about the twelfth row center.

My current system has even better (more realistic) imaging because of the higher degree of resolution, and the sense of scale and mass. There is good illusion of dimension and spatial relationships between performers on stage and in a convincing setting or context. The improved imaging is integral to the sense of presence I now experience. There is nothing diffuse or vague about it. It is simply not enhanced like it was with my earlier Q3 With TA wires set up or some other systems I have heard.

I do not have big bloomy vague diffuse images as has been suggested. The sound or energy is big and expansive, but the images are an appropriate scale and location. And they have solid dimension with depth. Sometimes they are startlingly specific, in terms of location, but they are not pinpoint, outlined or flat. I have heard that type of presentation too.

Presence in the room is excellent, even better than with my improved Magico set up because of the increased resolution, it is just not quite as good as from those Bionors. Realistic imaging within a range is important for a natural sounding presentation.

Edit: and imaging should change depending on the recording. The system should not overlay a sameness in term of imaging to all recordings.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think it is a matter of degree. Great imaging presented naturally (like you hear live) yes. Ultra precise pinpoint imaging, no. IMO.

Where is that line Peter? For me, for imaging to be natural it has to have volume. The precision shoukd be there too but it has to be grainless and 3D. Presence in the room. Big bloomy vague images is simply wrong for most recordings…you might like it better because it is more like distant live listening but from a recording it is usually wrong. It indicates you accept a clear system distortion that happens to fit with your aesthetic sense. That’s fine.

Flat images and soundstage is also a distortion of what is on good recordings and demonstrates a system that doesn’t process ambient and low level information correctly…either through omission or commission or both.

ideally a system is agile for soundstage reproduction according to the recording. when the recording presents a large scale full orchestra with many things going on, it's significant when a system is able to do that; small combo jazz, big band, large choral group. solo piano or violin, close mic'd or more mid hall perspective, as diffuse or precise as the recording renders. part of it is ambience retrieval which is not only low noise with the system and sources, but also significant is lowest octave extension and weight and amplifier headroom.....as that's part of defining the space effectively and scaling with the musical flow.

Beethoven's Ninth, girl with guitar, Quartetto Italiano, the Weavers at Carnegie Hall and everything in between.

sound staging/imaging should vary from recording to recording. not always diffuse, not always precise. tendencies are degrees of artifact. there should be action and energy in the imaging.

not every system can render every/all soundstage information equally from every recording, it's not essential or equally important to everyone. but being able to cover it all is also no artifact.

sure; if the imaging is highlighted by images lacking body, weight, and frequency balance then that can be an artifact by the missing elements being distracting.....less than natural. whether tubes, solid state or any driver type. proper acoustics, however accomplished, is significant.

 

[PeterA]

Beethoven's Ninth, girl with guitar, Quartetto Italiano, the Weavers at Carnegie Hall and everything in between.

sound staging/imaging should vary from recording to recording. not always diffuse, not always precise. tendencies are degrees of artifact. there should be action and energy in the imaging.

Yes I agree. A good system will present differences between different recordings.

What do you mean when you write “there should be action and energy in the imaging“?

 

[PeterA]

I went to a dinner party last night and much to my surprise and delight, the gentleman and friend who sold me this system back in the mid 90s happened to be at the same party. I had lost touch and not spoken to him in about eight years.

I told him about my new system and this afternoon sent him a link to this thread. I suspect that he will be interested in how my system has evolved in the last 25 or 30 years. When I told him my speakers and cartridge are from 1960, he smiled. He used to design and sell loudspeakers called Symdex Systems with Kevin Voeks? of Revel.

One of the best parts of this hobby is meeting interesting people who share a common interest.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes I agree. A good system will present differences between different recordings.

thanks.

What do you mean when you write “there should be action and energy in the imaging“?

action and energy associated with the images varies, from recording to recording. stuff like fingers on keys or strings and 'chest' or 'mouth' in vocals, the woodiness and power of a cello, skin of the drums, the sense of suddenness to the music......stuff that seems to cross the border of realism. when it is a natural part of the image bringing it more alive i call that action. movement, intensions. it comes alive. the more technically capable the system the more these things are able to be rendered fully. but not all systems do these things the same, there is not only one way this can work.

images can be a bit lifeless too. but still be there. just not with the same action. some of it is information, some of it is energy and some is also timing/pace/PRAT. you need all three. tone does not hurt either.