Natural Sound

Audiophile Bill

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About a week ago I received a special package from ddk. In it were two items critical to my new turntable: a cartridge he suggested I try, and some special thread to use to drive the AS 2000 platter. I installed the thread when setting up the turntable. Based on my belt/floss/thread experiments on the AS1000, I knew that I wanted thread drive for my new table. David had tried quite a few alternatives and preferred one particular thread. He then tried different thicknesses. He settled on one based on his listening tests. He sent me enough for two or three replacements. After some trial, I figured out how to install it. I then played with different thread tensions and found one that sounds best. What a nice solution to the problem of spinning the platter with minimal influence from the motor.

The cartridge turned out to be a NOS Ortofon SL-15. The sample he sent me is the later version and the most rare. I do not know how he managed to find one that is new, sitting in the original box, unplayed for all these years and with the original packaging and paperwork. It is simply incredible. I very carefully installed it this morning and listened for about three hours. Within a few minutes, I knew that this cartridge is special. David told me that it has been sitting for sixty years, so with some playing time, it would open up a bit more and sound even better.

It has an ultra low output of 0.04 mV, so it comes with its own small transformer. I installed it with the transformer plugged into the MM input of my Lamm phono stage. I will also try it without the external transformer by using the MC input. This will really just be a comparison between the internal Jensen transformer in the Lamm, and the external Ortofon transformer.

The cartridge sounds similar to the vdH Colibri Elite, but just a bit more natural. It has slightly less ultimate resolution, perhaps 5%, but it makes up for it with slightly more beautiful tone and more weight. The Colibri presents hall ambiance and subtle spatial cues better than any cartridge I have heard, but it is just slightly thin sounding compared to this Ortofon and to the Neumann I heard in Utah. These vintage cartridges are just so beautiful sounding. Drums, bass, tubas, woodwinds all have a mass, a heft, and body that the vdH just misses. Voices are more solid. It is a very difficult thing to describe, so I fall back on the word "natural". But unlike the turntable comparisons I did recently, these cartridges are not different levels or degrees of natural, they are simply slightly different perspectives on natural sound, perhaps a bit like Tang's EMT 927 and the AS2000. They are just slightly different and at this point, I am not sure which I prefer. I am glad to have two tonearms.

It will be interesting to see how these two different cartridges grow on me. They are by far my favorites of all the ones that I have had in my system over the years. I can not thank David enough for this gift and for introducing me to this world of very special vintage cartridges. My speakers and this Ortofon are both from the 1960s, about as old as I am. It makes me wonder just how much progress has been made in all these years. Their designers really knew what they were doing, and they hold up still today.

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Very cool. Any chance of a video playing this cartridge, Peter. Would love to get an impression.
 

the sound of Tao

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Thank you Bonzo. I will make videos after I finish setting up the two new cartridges. I have not decided if I’m going to distribute them publicly.
This frickin marvel that you own Peter is a wish way beyond my very very simple scholar means. You and Tang have always been generous in sharing insights of it here with your videos. I hope that the noise of those robotically railing against anyone sharing a few simple glimpses of their experiences via videos doesn’t shift your traditional open attitude towards sharing… it would be a shame to cave into the at times a bit mean spirited noise when you should just be able to feel comfortable playing a bit of your music via a video at any time. It’s no big deal unless people choose to make it. Surely no one is really actually harmed by them :eek:. So hoping you’ll continue to share away, its strangely contentious for some…but it brings a nice simple window of insight and more than a healthy bit of joy to others!
 
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the sound of Tao

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3B55B158-9A1C-4E81-BC5C-3E89399A0E5B.gif
Whoops… well apparently people can be harmed by watching videos :eek: PS Peter I’ll delete this very shortly, it’s freaking me out lol
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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PeterA

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View attachment 96566
Whoops… well apparently people can be harmed by watching videos :eek: PS Peter I’ll delete this very shortly, it’s freaking me out lol

This scene from “The Ring” is pretty scary, Japanese horror at its best. Posting videos comes with risk. The risk is not about the sound for me, nor whether or not people like them. The risk with my videos is that the horse is back up and trotting, and some will want to beat it to death again. I just don’t want the distraction.

Once I am happy with the set up of both new cartridges, I will make a couple videos. Perhaps later today. Tim is right. No caving.
 

PeterA

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Here are four videos to compare the three turntables with the same Colibri cartridge, and then the last one with the Ortofon cartridge. For Bonzo, there are two comparisons possible: The SX8000II/AS1000/AS2000 and the Ortofon and vdH Colibri cartridges on the AS2000. In the last two videos, both cartridges were installed in the last day or two and each has less than ten hours of play time. They are on identical NOS SME 3012R tonearms with original SME phono cables.

For Brad, I did my best to level match the last two videos for the cartridge comparison using a hand held digital SPL. The difference is pretty dramatic on my Lamm volume control given the two different transformers and cartridge outputs, but the videos seem pretty close in level to me.

I will also post other videos later with different genres of music, but this will give some impression of how the table and cartridges sound in the system.

Micro Seiki, vdH Colibri Elite


AS1000, vdH Colibri Elite


AS2000, vdH Colibri Elite


AS2000, Ortofon SL-15




Here too is a photo of the back of my Lamm phono stage showing the Ortofon transformer. It is the light grey plastic tube shape with RCA going into the MM inputs. The SME phono cable for the Ortofon plugs into it at the bottom of the image. The SME phono cable for the Colibri plugs directly into the MC inputs. The blue output cables are from ddk and go to the Lamm preamp.

IMG_3353.JPG
 
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ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Here are four videos to compare the three turntables with the same Colibri cartridge, and then the last one with the Ortofon cartridge. For Bonzo, there are two comparisons possible: The SX8000II/AS1000/AS2000 and the Ortofon and vdH Colibri cartridges on the AS2000. In the last two videos, both cartridges were installed in the last day or two and each has less than ten hours of play time. They are on identical NOS SME 3012R tonearms with original SME phono cables.

For Brad, I did my best to level match the last two videos for the cartridge comparison using a hand held digital SPL. The difference is pretty dramatic on my Lamm volume control given the two different transformers and cartridge outputs, but the videos seem pretty close in level to me.

I will also post other videos later with different genres of music, but this will give some impression of how the table and cartridges sound in the system.

Micro Seiki, vdH Colibri Elite


AS1000, vdH Colibri Elite


AS2000, vdH Colibri Elite


AS2000, Ortofon SL-15




Here too is a photo of the back of my Lamm phono stage showing the Ortofon transformer. It is the light grey plastic tube shape with RCA going into the MM inputs. The SME phono cable for the Ortofon plugs into it at the bottom of the image. The SME phono cable for the Colibri plugs directly into the MC inputs. The blue output cables are from ddk and go to the Lamm preamp.

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You already know the AS2000 with the Ortofon is my favorite, Louis steps out of the grooves and is in the room with you in that video, even from a YouTube video!

david
 

Tango

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You already know the AS2000 with the Ortofon is my favorite, Louis steps out of the grooves and is in the room with you in that video, even from a YouTube video!

david
Your old ears still can hear from video. :) The shading is different. The human-ness is different. Listen to the chorus at beginning "arrr..arrrh..arrrrhh" right before Louis follows. The cymbals. The density and smoothness in tone are different. This old cart seems to have its charm. IMO will be best for music with a lot of soul lot of live at that moment like jazz.
 

ddk

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Your old ears still can hear from video. :) The shading is different. The human-ness is different. Listen to the chorus at beginning "arrr..arrrh..arrrrhh" right before Louis follows. The cymbals. The density and smoothness in tone are different. This old cart seems to have its charm. IMO will be best for music with a lot of soul lot of live at that moment like jazz.
Agreed!

My old ears are still in their prime :D !

david
 

tima

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Louis steps out of the grooves and is in the room with you in that video, even from a YouTube video!

Yes, perfect description.

Maybe a touch more extension from the vdH Elite. I love the brass timbre of the Ortofon with its touch more note-bending soul from the horn players - you can tell right from the start. Wonderful.
 

ddk

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Yes, perfect description.

Maybe a touch more extension from the vdH Elite.
Maybe, I'm not familiar with this pressing if the highs are boosted then the vdH is more accurate if not there's a tilt up in the Elite. Easy to hear the highlighted symbols which attract too much attentions, just don't know if it's the record or the cartridge.
I love the brass timbre of the Ortofon with its touch more note-bending soul from the horn players - you can tell right from the start. Wonderful.
Totally agree!

david
 
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Audiophile Bill

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Yes, perfect description.

Maybe a touch more extension from the vdH Elite. I love the brass timbre of the Ortofon with its touch more note-bending soul from the horn players - you can tell right from the start. Wonderful.
Indeed there is more extension from the Elite but no musical relevance to it - is poses more as a distraction than anything one wants to hear. The more fleshy and earthy timbre and texture in the Ortofon makes for a more natural presentation of this LP to my ears. Louis just sounds more real because the balance of his overall register is faithful to the human voice rather.
 

bonzo75

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While the Ortofon on AS 2000 is sounding the best here, I prefer the AS 1000 video with vdh to the AS 2000 with vdh.

Peter this vdh GCE is different from the one that you had on the AS 1000, different output and impedance and VTF, and less burn in?

Btw completely dislike this music to listen to multiple times.
 
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Tango

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bonzo75

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I got an iphone 11 over the weekend (previous 8+). Yes I purposefully use vintage iphones they are cheaper. I am getting different results from the two phones, streaming from the two phones, and laptop streaming.

I am trying to calibrate which seems more right based on systems I had recorded and how they sound played back compared to what I had heard in person.

My initial estimate is that iphone 11 is better playing back on its own, while 8+ and my laptop gave more representative results streaming to a small speaker.
 
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tima

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Let's not talk about phones. Let's talk about music and cartridges and turntables. While the cartridge differences come through in these latest videos, maybe some different music would be nice. But Peter is not a juke box and I appreciate the effort he has put into letting us hear these opportunities. Where else can people from around the world listen, compare and comment.
 
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Tango

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Play big band and orchestra. Listen to the drum the bass also to hear if it is in tact. Then the Ortofon will expose itself more. I doubt it is a one for all cart but worthyof being on one of the four arms Peter has. Quite a few aspects of this video recording seem close to DST62 video sound. It dims the scene like you are in a cigar jazz lounge rather than a day light environment. Jazz vocal and chamber would sound very intimate, rich and soulful. The in-the-room factor is through the roof. I think the cart could get better quite a bit after time. My first week of vintage carts did not play at the same level as now.
 
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bonzo75

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Play big band and orchestra. Listen to the drum the bass also to hear if it is in tact. Then the Ortofon will expose itself more. I doubt it is a one for all cart but worthyof being on one of the four arms Peter has. Quite a few aspects of this video recording seem close to DST62 video sound. It dims the scene like you are in a cigar jazz lounge rather than a day light environment. Jazz vocal and chamber would sound very intimate, rich and soulful. The in-the-room factor is through the roof. I think the cart could get better quite a bit after time. My first week of vintage carts did not play at the same level as now.

Peter did say in video post that he is going to record other music. I think this aaargh, aaargh, aaargh was to help you relate to your live experiences at the Thai jizz clubs
 
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