My monitor/subwoofer system

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
4,556
1,213
Greater Boston
Nice progress Al. The widening of the back of the soundstage and a more natural presentation with more "energy" are all good things. You do a good job of describing what you are hearing. I look forward to revisiting.

Is that huge panel out of room completely, or is it somewhere in the back behind the listener? I can help you move if needed.

Now, aren't you just a little curious what might happen if you slowly start removing the TubeTraps from the front/center of the room and/or the panels at the first reflection points? I am only half joking.

Can you post a large scale photo from a few feet behind the listening chair looking at the front of the room with a wide angle?

Thanks, Peter, I'm all set with the move, it's out of the room. Not moving it out of the room would not have made for a good comparison, since it would have had effects elsewhere.

As for your other points, look for tomorrow's installment...the findings are already in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
4,556
1,213
Greater Boston
DSC01752_cr.jpg

DSC01757_cr.jpg

Partial removal/shuffling of TubeTraps

Given that I had already been experimenting with acoustic treatments, last week I was thinking what would happen with the removal of some TubeTraps. In particular, I was wondering if the large TubeTrap array was removing some midbass energy that could be restored. In the end I arrived at what is seen above in the photos. The two 13 inch TubeTraps on top of the 16 inch TubeTraps, see:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/my-monitor-subwoofer-system.25101/#post-501698

are removed from there. Two 16 inch TubeTraps, forming a middle column behind the now also removed absorbing panel, are removed as well. In their place is now one of the 13 inch TubeTraps. The corners still carry single 16 inch TubeTraps. Initially I kept them with their diffusive side turned outward, as I had them before.

Result:

Basically no effect:
1. Midbass energy hardly changed, which was a bit of a surprise.
2. Imaging on some critical recordings is still upfront where it should be, such as on the vocals on my reference rock tracks.
3. There is no obvious decline of the excellent rhythm & timing that I have. It greatly deteriorated previously when ALL TubeTraps were removed.

Positives:
4. There is yet more air in the presentation, and surprisingly, also more effortlessness, in the sense that there seem to be fewer distortions, which normally might be attributed to loudspeaker strain. For some reason, the effect is not unlike moving the speakers closer together in order to avoid distortions from sidewall reflections. The music feels that it sounds a bit more "open", transparent and real, even though perceived HF extension did not improve dramatically, only perhaps slightly.
5. There appears to be more perceived width at the front of the soundstage on some recordings, and orchestral width seems largely restored from what it was prior to recently moving the speakers closer together.

As for point 2., I also checked on the powerful rock classic "Hells Bells" by AC/DC. That track features a somewhat recessed image of the singer (not just on my system), but it became instantly better, moving more forward, as I turned the middle TubeTrap from the diffusive to the absorptive side, keeping the corner TubeTraps with the diffusive side pointing outward as they had been.

Yet while I heard all the positives under points 4 and 5, playing more and more tracks also revealed some negatives. The trumpet of Lee Morgan on 'Twilight Mist' from the album 'Tomcat' (XRCD) became a bit less solid sounding, also with less color, and dynamic impact was diminished. Other trumpet tracks were less affected.

The violin of Hilary Hahn on her exciting album 'Encores', with encores commissioned by her personally from 27 contemporary composers, has timbres that can be a bit tricky to reproduce, but now sounded as natural as I have heard. Yet the accompanying piano sounded a bit more diffuse and muddled than I would have liked to hear. There was more portrayal of a reverberance of the recorded acoustic, but it did not substantially affect perceived incisiveness of transients on violin. Yet that unfortunately happened with the violin on Rachel Barton Pine's incredible interpretation of Bach's partitas and sonatas for solo violin. There was also a noticeable flattening of dynamics and of tone, which lost some of its attractive woodenness. The recording had sounded quite dry before, and now there appeared a reverberant acoustic, as would seem appropriate given that the music was recorded in a church (St. Paul's Church in Chicago), but impact was diminished to an uncomfortable extent.

Fortunately, all the negatives went away, either largely or completely, when I then turned the corner TubeTraps so that the absorptive side, rather than the diffusive side, pointed outward (I love this versatility of TubeTraps). The acoustic on the violin recordings by Hilary Hahn and Rachel Barton Pine became dryer again, yet not as dry as before with all the TubeTraps in place, and incisiveness of transients on the violin on the latter recording returned to a satisfying degree. Dynamics and variation of tone seemed intact again. The piano playing alongside Hilary Hahn's violin regained clarity. The trumpet of Lee Morgan on 'Twilight Mist' regained its earthy and more incisive, dynamic tone.

As I said above, after rearrangement of the TubeTraps the upfront character of imaging on a number of critical recordings, where I would lament a change, was preserved. Yet on some others there was a bit more of a recession of imaging than I would like. With turning the corner TubeTraps to the absorptive side facing outward this is largely reversed.

All in all, the removal of some TubeTraps and tweaking the absorptive/diffusive character of the remaining ones, had a clear net positive effect, with very minor drawbacks.

All this shows how delicately the perceived performance of a system, even in terms of transient behavior and dynamics, depends on room acoustics, especially with cone speakers with their broader dispersion characteristics (electrostats and horns may be affected less). I was already operating within a good window of room acoustics, given all the other acoustic treatments in place, and was just tweaking within that range by TubeTrap removal/shuffling. But what if you are outside that range in the first place? The system performance clearly will be below what it should be. Those who ignore working on their room acoustics do so at their own peril, unless they happen to have an almost ideal room to start with, which in my experience is rarely the case. If living circumstances exclude more intrusive room treatments, at least experimenting with carpets (type/location) and furniture placement may be worthwhile.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ack and Ron Resnick

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
4,556
1,213
Greater Boston
Sounds like more progress Al. Good news. During your trials did you ever remove all tube traps completely and then try moving around the speakers and listening seat for smoothest LF response? I commend you for having revisited your acoustic treatments.

Peter, I knew that you would ask the question. I just experimented with removing the TubeTraps. The result is not catastrophic as it had been on previous occasions with my old system. In fact, it's pretty good. I do like the, in terms of energy and sculpting, somewhat more focused sound with TubeTraps, and to me it sounds more lively. Given how your taste has evolved, I would not be surprised if you would feel the opposite, and that would be fine too.

I do think that removing some of the TubeTraps down to the current configuration enhanced liveliness -- in my particular acoustic situation -- but that further removal does not.

With my current speaker setup that deliberately eschews pinpoint imaging (I am really, really over that) sound is not more pinpointed in terms of imaging with TubeTraps than without.

What cannot be denied in my view, however, is that the bass quality with TubeTraps is just better. Bass is more controlled, in a good way. Without TubeTraps, bass is still surprisingly good, and to a lot of people it might sound perfectly fine, but I have grown accustomed to better. Bass quantity does not change without TubeTraps, only quality.

As for moving speakers for bass response, that is a bit more involved than moving TubeTraps. Fortunately monitor/sub combos are less sensitive to changes in bass response by moving the main speakers than multi-way floor standers. As for listening seat, I already know that further back the response is less smooth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
Al, congrats! I have a fundamental aversion to tube traps and such, starting with the visual aspect of it, so I hope you can find a way to remove the rest as well. Removing that vertical panel is a huge visual improvement alone.
 
Last edited:

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
4,556
1,213
Greater Boston
Al, congrats! I have a fundamental aversion to tube traps and such, starting with the visual aspect of it, so I hope you can find a way to remove the rest as well. Removing that vertical panel is a huge visual improvement alone.

Thanks, Ack. The upper photo in # 402 is more or less what you seen from the listening seat. The corner TubeTraps are hardly visible. Removal of half the TubeTrap arrangement effectively reduces the visual intrusion by about 2/3, so it should feel much more comfortable to you next time you visit.

Regardless, I mostly listen in the dark, so then there really is no visual intrusion anyway. I personally like the optics of TubeTraps.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
4,556
1,213
Greater Boston
DSC01794_cr.jpg

Empirical Audio Synchro-Mesh Reclocker, fed by Empirical Audio Dynamo linear power supply, tucked in the middle of the lower half of the central rack, left of the external capacitor bank (Super Black Box) for the Octave power amp, and behind the power amp in front of the rack (alas not visible from listening seat).

DSC01795_cr.jpg

DSC01798_cr.jpg

Back view:
Empirical Audio Dynamo linear power supply (left side) feeding the Empirical Audio Synchro-Mesh Reclocker (right side). The Synchro-Mesh Reclocker takes the input signal from the CD transport via Empirical Audio BNC Reference cable, and outputs the reclocked signal through the same type of cable to the Yggdrasil 2 DAC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ack

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
4,556
1,213
Greater Boston
An upgrade from last month (see above photos):
Empirical Audio reclocking system:
Synchro-Mesh Reclocker driven by Dynamo Linear Power Supply, 2 x Reference BNC digital cable

It sits between my Simaudio Moon 260 DT transport playing CDs and the Schiit Yggdrasil 2 DAC.

Excellent device to get jitter from a CD transport down to values comparable with computer audio. Since I have that reclocking system now, I'll probably skip the upcoming Unison USB transport from Schiit that otherwise would complement my Yggdrasil 2.

Here are some impressions:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/are-transports-obsolete.30549/page-10#post-655759
(and following discussion)

Follow-up:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/are-transports-obsolete.30549/page-12#post-656656
 

Brucemck2

Member Sponsor
May 10, 2010
428
103
1,598
Houston area
An upgrade from last month (see above photos):
Empirical Audio reclocking system:
Synchro-Mesh Reclocker driven by Dynamo Linear Power Supply, 2 x Reference BNC digital cable
g

Empirical Audio Synchromesh (reclocks spdif) and OffRamp (Usb to spdif or AES) are terrific, particularly when powered by the matching Dynamo power supply. Bulletproof and ultra-low jitter that is readily discernable over lesser sources. I use and recommend both.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Al M.

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
5,174
2,864
1,898
Encino, CA
dumb question - why doesn't your Octave dealer come over to your house and set up your speakers? you've spend years fiddling with placement and treatment, going back and forth in different directions. placement isn't this hard guys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bonzo75

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
4,556
1,213
Greater Boston
dumb question - why doesn't your Octave dealer come over to your house and set up your speakers? you've spend years fiddling with placement and treatment, going back and forth in different directions. placement isn't this hard guys.

Sure, an expert can provide a first approximation for good sound. If I'd look for a speaker set-up expert I'd hire someone like Jim Smith though, since he would spend much more time with me than a dealer in getting things right. Experimenting for an hour or so is not enough.

Yet there is simply, absolutely, zero chance that I would take a set-up by any expert as the last word. There are two principal reasons for that:

1. Personal taste.
The expert's "good sound" may not be my good sound. I may have other priorities and preferences guiding me to my own optimal sound. It will also depend on how to make things sound optimal for each genre, and my personal emphasis of relative importance with respect to different genres. The best set-up for killer bass with electronica may not be the best one for string quartet, for example. While I can convey my priorities and preferences to the expert during the limited time of set-up, I am ultimately the one who has to live with the system for hours each day, and based on what I continue to hear, I may change my mind, or sharpen perception of things that did not bother me before but may bother me down the road. I can then try to fix these things, which may not have been obvious earlier. All this takes time. There are so many things to choose from, soundstage width vs. sidewall reflections, soundstage depth vs. bass amount, bass quantity vs. bass quality, tonal balance, tonal balance for one musical genre vs. another, the way energy is projected into the room, etc.. Since everything in audio is inherently a compromise (also in million dollar systems), and not every compromise seems acceptable the same way down the road as it does initially, figuring it all out takes time.

We all know the sensation upon first hearing our new system, component, room or room treatment, how much better everything seems. Yet we all know as well the sensation that this initial satisfaction may wear off as we discover new flaws, either introduced by the changes, or over time revealed by them to a level where they become obvious. It will by necessity be the same with an expert's set-up. At first we may go "oh" and "aah", but then we start noticing and questioning things. That's natural, that's human nature, that's how the hobby works.

2. Speaker set-up changes due to changes in the system.
Room acoustics, speaker set-up and electronics are all a single integrated system. Everything influences everything, a main reason why this is a complex hobby. When you change one thing, you may have to change another. As I recently described, some room treatments were absolutely necessary -- to my taste and preferences -- with my old system, but now with all new electronics, and perhaps with other acoustic changes undertaken in the meantime, removing some of these room treatments gives a better result. Same with speaker set-up and electronics. New electronics may change tonal balance slightly, may change the way energy is projected into the room, may provide different amounts of bass, may shift balance of mid-bass vs. low bass, due to better soundstage prowess may provide more freedom to change speaker set-up without compromising soundstage too much, etc. All this may induce the desire to experiment with speaker set-up to give an even better result than before, or in some cases, to recapture some aspect that changed. Thus, even when an expert arrives at a speaker set-up that is perceived as optimal for one particular system configuration, as a snapshot in time, changes in that configuration may easily overrule the expert's assessment due to the new conditions.

"It isn't this hard": yes, perhaps to get an initially satisfying sound. But to get an ultimately as optimal perceived sound: that may not be that easy. You never know what is optimally possible from your system until you try it.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
4,938
6,269
950
Bangkok
you've spend years fiddling with placement and treatment, going back and forth in different directions. placement isn't this hard guys.
It is Keith's quote but I might have some similar thinking in mind.

@Al M. You made a lot of comments about how you hear live classical music and how close your system sound to it. I am wondering if your perception of what you heard live at concerts keep changIng over time that's why we have been seeing you keep changing setups of your room and speaker placement.
Do you think that your system and setup is at a mature stage now? To be honest I am sorting out which systems in this forum is mature and which is still evolving. For example, I find ddk's and Mike's system and room very mature. We dont see them keep moving speakers, altering room for years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda and KeithR

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,650
13,688
2,710
London
Sorry Tang, I really don't see how one can define maturity. It is such a function of the owner's mindset to change or not to. For example, your system with the Ayons can be considered mature, even if there is an upgrade in sound moving to Lamm. Your system could be considered mature with Kronos and Techdas as well. Yes your system without bass horn is not mature till you put the bass horn in, but you had a bass horn before, and you swapped one for the other. Everyone who owns a sub here can change their subs, so in this case, maturity just becomes a function of the owner's mindset, based on their preference or restlessness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Al M.

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,815
4,556
1,213
Greater Boston
Sorry Tang, I really don't see how one can define maturity. It is such a function of the owner's mindset to change or not to. For example, your system with the Ayons can be considered mature, even if there is an upgrade in sound moving to Lamm. Your system could be considered mature with Kronos and Techdas as well. Yes your system without bass horn is not mature till you put the bass horn in, but you had a bass horn before, and you swapped one for the other. Everyone who owns a sub here can change their subs, so in this case, maturity just becomes a function of the owner's mindset, based on their preference or restlessness.

Well said, Ked, it's a function of the owner's mindset.

As pertains to my own system, I'll add some more thoughts at a later time, maybe today or tomorrow.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
4,938
6,269
950
Bangkok
Sorry Tang, I really don't see how one can define maturity. It is such a function of the owner's mindset to change or not to. For example, your system with the Ayons can be considered mature, even if there is an upgrade in sound moving to Lamm. Your system could be considered mature with Kronos and Techdas as well. Yes your system without bass horn is not mature till you put the bass horn in, but you had a bass horn before, and you swapped one for the other. Everyone who owns a sub here can change their subs, so in this case, maturity just becomes a function of the owner's mindset, based on their preference or restlessness.
Maturity or whatever you want to call it Ked. When you are rock solid in saying that the best midbass come from double woofer Altec, that is imo Ked's matured sound of midbass. It is your unshakable sound after gone through miles and miles of searching investigating. So why cant you say this mature. I dont mean mature by people around you. I mean mature by you yourself. Same apply to system and room and if your mind set just doesnt keep changing.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,650
13,688
2,710
London
Ok, so what you are saying is where the person thinks he has evolved to fully understand (at this point in time) that this is his end stage. That's fine. It is then a function of how much the person at that point in time things he needs to investigate further till he evolves, as that might change his tastes. But then do systems have to be at the ultimate level? What if someone owns a nicely put Tannoy system, knowing that with more budget, he can get better, but not required, as he is quite happy with the Tannoy.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
4,938
6,269
950
Bangkok
Ok, so what you are saying is where the person thinks he has evolved to fully understand (at this point in time) that this is his end stage. That's fine. It is then a function of how much the person at that point in time things he needs to investigate further till he evolves, as that might change his tastes. But then do systems have to be at the ultimate level? What if someone owns a nicely put Tannoy system, knowing that with more budget, he can get better, but not required, as he is quite happy with the Tannoy.
Then he is at his maturity stage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bonzo75

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,650
13,688
2,710
London
You do realize by your definition, Marc is mature
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda and Folsom

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
5,174
2,864
1,898
Encino, CA
Sure, an expert can provide a first approximation for good sound. If I'd look for a speaker set-up expert I'd hire someone like Jim Smith though, since he would spend much more time with me than a dealer in getting things right. Experimenting for an hour or so is not enough.

Yet there is simply, absolutely, zero chance that I would take a set-up by any expert as the last word. There are two principal reasons for that:

1. Personal taste.
The expert's "good sound" may not be my good sound.

2. Speaker set-up changes due to changes in the system.

"It isn't this hard": yes, perhaps to get an initially satisfying sound. But to get an ultimately as optimal perceived sound: that may not be that easy. You never know what is optimally possible from your system until you try it.

This entire post basically states my case that help would be welcome. Audiophile analysis paralysis. You have a dealer who has been in business for 30+ years with hearing sound in a thousand rooms and you think you can outsmart him. Even if this is a "starting point" it's likely better than what you have. I have multiple dealers in LA that would be more than welcome to spend an afternoon with me - if yours won't, whom you've spent significant $ with, that's a serious issue. It will probably cut through the mental red tape.

Anyways, I'm just trying to help. Don't take my post as being negative. Call Goodwin's and schedule some time with them. What is there to lose? Oftentimes stepping away and letting a good third party come in yields more benefits than we can do on our own.

ps- speaker positioning really shouldn't change based on component choices especially with monitors. think you're moving the goalposts
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing