My monitor/subwoofer system

[ack]

I guess I've given up on making my system sound a certain way and would rather allow the recordings to show what they do with the minimal amount of editing and alterations done by the system.

Yes, this is where I've always come from.

 

[Folsom]

Probably not so easily in your speakers. As far as I remember the Ensemble crossovers do not follow the usual classical topology and speaker units are left unfiltered, adding a resistor can also affect the balance in the middle zone.

^ Putting a resistor into most speakers will shift the FR a lot. If you feel the need to do that you've got other issues, if the FR is already pretty flat especially in the 1-3k area. (dipping is ok)

 

[ack]

^ Putting a resistor into most speakers will shift the FR a lot. If you feel the need to do that you've got other issues, if the FR is already pretty flat especially in the 1-3k area. (dipping is ok)

We are only suggesting values like 0.22, 0.13, 0.10 and perhaps less

 

[Al M.]

I guess I've given up on making my system sound a certain way and would rather allow the recordings to show what they do with the minimal amount of editing and alterations done by the system.

Agreed. I mentioned in #281 all my efforts in terms of acoustics and speaker set-up to maximize the difference in spatial qualities of recordings in my room.

I also usually don't use the tone controls of my preamp. However, sometimes -- not often -- a correction of the bass is needed when it is either overly ripe or overly lean (to claim that the bass in recordings is always "right" is preposterous in my view; bass output just varies too much between recordings). For this, I use the volume controls on my subs.

 

[microstrip]

That is debatable. I have never heard a recording engineer say that images are meant to be more precise than in real life. That precision may also simply be an artifact of stereo reproduction, albeit an enjoyable one, and perhaps may even be perceived as being informative. (...)

Stereo images are intrinsically very precise - pin point as we say. Sound engineers, our equipment and our rooms blur them in order to sound convincing. Control rooms are usually highly absorptive with little reflection as they are tools for mixing, not musical enjoyment, and sound engineers need to have good locating precision.

 

[Folsom]

We are only suggesting values like 0.22, 0.13, 0.10 and perhaps less

You might be surprised by the measurements.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, this is where I've always come from.

I agree too Tasos. I want to hear the differences on recordings. What surprises me is the characterization or assumption that those who prefer their speakers with no toe in are somehow trying to make all recordings sound the same or "live", whatever that means. You and DaveC seem to be suggesting this. I don't know to whom you are referring, but that is not my goal, and it is not a fair representation of what I am trying to do. It may be what you heard in Al's system, but should it really be the basis for such a universal generalization about sound and toe-in? I want to hear music sound convincing from my system, that from a live performance, and that from a studio performance. If speaker position and direction help accomplish that goal, that is my intent.

Aiming the speakers straight ahead forced me to completely reposition them in the room to get back to what I think of as the balance which gets me a natural sound. It is all a compromise. A very "live" room with hard surfaces with lots of reflections and a glass coffee table in front will have an effect on the overall balance just as a over damped room has an effect. Both overlay their sound over every recording one hears on his system. Speaker position and toe-in are two ways that a listener can adjust his sound to interact with the room in a certain way. For me it is not about making every recording sound the same or "live" sounding.

Speaker toe in effects tonal balance and can effect the balance between direct sound and reflected sound. In my system with no toe-in, I now thing my sound seems more natural. Studio recordings that are dry, still sound that way. Live music recorded in a live space sounds more that way. I am trying to get away from a hifi sound. Adjusting my speaker toe-in seems to help.

 

[ack]

It may be what you heard in Al's system, but should it really be the basis for such a universal generalization about sound and toe-in?

I’ll just repeat what I said earlier. I’ve never heard this configuration sound good. I would recommend not second guessing all these speaker manufacturers, including yours, who discuss and advise proper toe in.

 

[PeterA]

Indeed, true. I can't get sentimental about material things.

Don't know what "sentimental about material things" means in the context of preferring the sound of Al's system with or without toe-in.

 

[PeterA]

I’ll just repeat what I said earlier. I’ve never heard this configuration sound good. I would recommend not second guessing all these speaker manufacturers, including yours, who discuss and advise proper toe in.

Thank you for your advice.

 

[ack]

Don't know what "sentimental about material things" means in the context of preferring the sound of Al's system with or without toe-in.

I am blunt about material things

 

[microstrip]

(...) to claim that the bass in recordings is always "right" is preposterous in my view; bass output just varies too much between recordings). For this, I use the volume controls on my subs.

I think that people do not claim he bass in recordings is always "right" , however many will claim that using just the volume controls in subs to compensate specific recordings will do more wrong than right. I am one of those who prefer not to fiddle with such adjustments, I do not feel able to do them on an individual recording basis in a short time.

 

[Al M.]

I think that people do not claim he bass in recordings is always "right" , however many will claim that using just the volume controls in subs to compensate specific recordings will do more wrong than right. I am one of those who prefer not to fiddle with such adjustments, I do not feel able to do them on an individual recording basis in a short time.

If I had to use a multi-band equalizer like a Cello Palette I would feel lost. But with a simple control for the bass I have no problem quickly adjusting to what sounds agreeable to me.

Again, I don't adjust often, certainly less than I used to. Yet the most egregious extremes either way of bass amount can be easily corrected, in my view.

The treble remains untouched, with two exceptions in my entire collection thus far, one of them having a sound technical reason (an early CD that obviously has pre-emphasis, a practice that was abandoned pretty quickly; treble adjustment makes it listenable).

 

[PeterA]

It's NOT a problem with my argument. It's simply that live music varies in real life and sometimes it DOES have defined images. It depends on the performance, the venue, where you sit, etc... I'm sorry but you can't pin down live music and say "This is What it Sounds Like".

As far as AC power, decay, vibration control, you say it's objectively debatable but nobody is willing to have that debate at all, so I'd say you're totally wrong and neither you nor Peter not ddk have been able to come up with ANY logical argument it's not the case and not just another "tweak". I'm not trying to reopen this subject, but you can't say it's a topic that can never be mentioned, that's not fair.

Dave, we discussed this before. I am not in a position to debate with you about the design of AC power cables. I do not have the technical background, so why keep referring to this and asking me to come up with some argument? I agree with Al that if you are looking for such a debate, you should open a new thread and pose the question. Others more qualified than I may engage you. I would be interested to see how that discussion goes.

I tried your power cord, along with some others in my system, and your cord also in another system, following your recommendations in the latter case about settling times and proper set up. The owner of that system and I both heard a very strong sonic character to your cord and preferred other cords in both of our systems for various reasons.

 

[PeterA]

If I had to use a multi-band equalizer like a Cello Palette I would feel lost. But with a simple control for the bass I have no problem quickly adjusting to what sounds agreeable to me.

Again, I don't adjust often, certainly less than I used to. Yet the most egregious extremes of bass amount either way can be easily corrected, in my view.

The treble remains untouched, with two exceptions in my entire collection thus far, one of them having a sound technical reason (an early CD that obviously has pre-emphasis, a practice that was abandoned pretty quickly; treble adjustment makes it listenable).

Al, I think you are simply adjusting the sound of particular recordings to your individual preference just like using the volume or tone control on your new preamp. I don't see anything right or wrong about it.

 

[Al M.]

I agree with Al that if you are looking for such a debate, you should open a new thread and pose the question. Others more qualified than I may engage you. I would be interested to see how that discussion goes.

I am not particularly qualified either, but would certainly consider engaging with Dave's arguments in such a dedicated thread.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, stereo needs reflected sound to create a soundstage. And many people consider that quality of the reflected sound can be more important than quantity. The reflected sound existing on the recording should not be confused with the wall reflections in our room - they are different subjects.

The MBL's are a good example of it - I listened to the MBL101bs sounding excellent in a room with wood panels, in my room of plaster on cement of similar size I never managed the same effect. IMHO it is one of the reasons of the love or hate versus MBL of most audiophiles.

I agree Fransisco. The reflected sound on the recording is completely different from the reflected sound of one's room. I was simply suggesting that I would not want the latter interfering with my perception and appreciation of the former, though it is often impossible to have such a perfect room. Some interaction seems inevitable. How one manages the balance is the challenge and question, it seems to me.

 

[DaveC]

I tried your power cord, along with some others in my system, and your cord also in another system, following your recommendations in the latter case about settling times and proper set up. The owner of that system and I both heard a very strong sonic character to your cord and preferred other cords in both of our systems for various reasons.

Now this becomes about my cables again? Seriously? Why are you bringing them up with absolutely no cause, no relation to anything we are discussing? In your thread you forbade me from mentioning them, now you bring them up? Even after Al has said he doesn't want a discussion, yet you quote exactly that and make contentious comments?

I'll just ignore this and not directly respond, thanks anyways for your attempt to stir the pot and continue a conversation that was politely asked to be discontinued. I'm kind of shocked you'd do this...

 

[DaveC]

I am not particularly qualified either, but would certainly consider engaging with Dave's arguments in such a dedicated thread.

You'd lose badly and to be honest I don't have the time. If you think you're going to win a debate on what I do for a living, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[PeterA]

Now this becomes about my cables again? Seriously? Why are you bringing them up with absolutely no cause, no relation to anything we are discussing? In your thread you forbade me from mentioning them, now you bring them up? Even after Al has said he doesn't want a discussion, yet you quote exactly that and make contentious comments?

I'll just ignore this and not directly respond, thanks anyways for your attempt to stir the pot and continue a conversation that was politely asked to be discontinued. I'm kind of shocked you'd do this...

Dave, it is often about your cables and how you are somehow offended that Al and I did not buy your power cord. You make many subtle references to our not choosing your cord over the ones we bought instead. Here are three examples in this thread. I thought mentioning the specific example would put your comments into context for the rest of the people reading this thread.

"As far as AC power, I don't think this is debatable on an objective level, but if you subjectively feel that not reducing noise and using cables with much poorer objective specifications is an overall improvement who am I to say you're wrong?"

"This has nothing to do with Al's system in particular, but I really don't understand how getting a recording to sound more live by adding excess decay and noise (by handicapping your AC power and vibration controls) can be a good thing outside of personal preference... which as i said is also fine, people should do exactly as they wish, but at that point it's not the pursuit of high fidelity anymore so the setup diverges from the entire goal of high end audio, imo."

"As far as AC power, decay, vibration control, you say it's objectively debatable but nobody is willing to have that debate at all, so I'd say you're totally wrong and neither you nor Peter not ddk have been able to come up with ANY logical argument it's not the case and not just another "tweak". I'm not trying to reopen this subject, but you can't say it's a topic that can never be mentioned, that's not fair."