Musings on the arc ls-17

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Listen my children and ye shall here about the midnight ride of me and my tin ears. Seriously, I have a little story to tell so put on your boots and roll your pant legs up. As most of you know who have been reading anything I have written over time, I am an analog/tube lover. For those among you who count those as unforgivable sins, please read no more and go do something enjoyable like a double-blind test between two Class D amps or something.

I consider the heart of my stereo system to be my Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp. Every signal passes through my preamp whether it is coming from a music server, CD player, R2R, or my turntable. Therefore, my preamp has a tremendous influence on the final sound of all my sources. My SA-5.1 has been back at Mike Elliott’s place since September 15th. I sent it back to have the final upgrades done which is a complete rebuild of the power supply including a new Plitron power transformer (I previously had the line stage and phono stage rebuilt and all the RCA jacks replaced). I am also having the volume pot replaced with a DACT pot. The bottom line here is that if you have heard a Counterpoint SA-5.1 in a previous life, my 5.1 is not your grandfather’s 5.1. I still think the original circuit was a thing of aural beauty, having it rebuilt with the latest and greatest passive parts just makes it shine more.

OK. So my 5.1 has been gone for quite some time and I probably still won’t see it until around February (Mike’s tech was killed in a tragic bike accident which threw his already slow schedule asunder). Several months ago I purchased a couple of components to hold me over until my 5.1 comes back. I bought an ARC LS-17 line stage and an ARC PH-3SE phono stage. I bought both components from the original owners and they were both in excellent condition (my LS-17 looks brand new). Total retail value when new was about $6,500 for both pieces. Not exactly chump change, but still chump change to some of you.

Now the ARC gear is many generations newer than my 5.1 and more expensive sans the upgrades I have had installed. It should be much better right? I mean time marches on and all of that right? The ARC gear is very quiet and thus clean sounding. It is also lean sounding. I do believe the upper bass and lower midrange are shelved down which makes the bottom end (20-40Hz) stand out as well as the upper midrange and high end. I found myself having to concentrate on enjoying my system and that makes no sense if you think about it. There is simply too much information missing with the ARC combo and I think the main culprit is the LS-17. Everything is too lean and clean and much of the musical message has been scrubbed away in the process. If you are one of those who can’t make a purchasing decision unless you have been blindfolded and tortured first, I bet you couldn’t tell the ARC LS-17 from a SS preamp. I doubt I could if you boxed my ears and tied the blindfold on me. Which should come as no surprise, as the LS-17 is basically a SS line stage which just happens to sport a pair of the Russkie super tubes. The power supply and all voltage regulation is SS. Does anyone wonder why ARC uses vacuum tube voltage regulation and even sometimes rectification in their top-tier line stages?? I’m not going to ask a Dolph like question here. The reason ARC uses vacuum tubes in the power supplies of their most expensive line stages is that it sounds better. And yes, it’s more expensive to implement.

So yesterday I was still at my brother’s house after our Christmas celebration and he offered to let me take his 5.1 back home until mine shows up. My bro’s 5.1 had the line stage rebuilt by Mike Elliott, but nothing else. Out comes the LS-17, but I left the PH-3SE in there as I didn’t want to make too many changes at once. Wow. Now instead of my music sounding like a paint-by-numbers painting that had too many numbers left with no paint on them, but enough that you could tell what you were looking at suddenly had all of the missing numbers filled in. Can you say relax and enjoy the music? I can and I did. I would say that the ARC LS-17 is sort of like being a vegan. Your all thin and gaunt while you proclaim how healthy you are (I have a sister who is a vegan and her doctor has told her she must now eat cooked foods and meat as she had become seriously ill due to her vegan diet). The 5.1 is more like a carnivore-it does eat vegetables, but it feasts on the meat as well which gives it plenty of meat on its bones. With the ARC LS-17, you pretty much just get the bones.

Now I’m hungry. Somebody please pass the meat and gravy to me as I’m over the vegan diet I have been on.
 
Congrats Mark on your reaffirmed love of your Counterpoint preamp
 
The thing is, I'm not naive enough to believe that there aren't preamps out there that are better, but I probably can't afford them and I certainly haven't heard them yet. I bought a McIntosh C-2300 and I had to send it packing. Beautiful to look at in a garish sort of way, enough bells and whistles to make a railroad man happy, and yet I found it lacking where it matters most, and that is the sound. I bought a brand new Atma-Sphere MP-3 decked out with lots of upgrades and it was a total nightmare on Elm Street. I won't get into the issues on this one as it is all behind me now. And now I have purchased the ARC LS-17/PH3-SE combo so it's not like I haven't tried to find something that sounds better. I just don't know where on the food chain you have to go to beat it and how much that costs.

I'm currently contemplating my Audiogon story for when I unload the ARC LS-17. I'm somewhere in between "the wife says it doesn't go with the decor so it must go (don't you just love those stories?)" and "somebody just had a baby so now I need to sell my toys to finance junior."
 
Steve, the best comment on the forum today:(;):D:D
Mark ,my sister-in-law was a vegan... she's still alive to tell the tale:cool:

Davey-I noticed you said "was a vegan." What happened? Humans weren't designed to subsist only on raw vegtables. I always told my vegan sister that she was going to walk across the street and get run over by a meat truck anyway so she might as well rejoin the carnivore herd. I have another sister whose arms are too short and she can't push off from the dinner table so she is fatter than 3 hogs. Go figure.
 
Is the 5.1 one that had a very versatile phono preamp?

The 5.1 has an outstanding sounding phono stage which was really designed for high ouput MC cartridges and/or MM cartridges. It does have two sets of phono inputs with one set labeled "MC." You can also change the loading by inserting resistors into sockets on the main circuit board. The phono section in the 5.1 is pure tube unlike the inferior sounding SA-5000 and the rest of the "1000" series preamps that came later. You might actually be thinking of the SA-5000 as it had resistive loading available with a turn of a switch on the front panel. And since it has J-Fets tied to the phono section, it has much more gain than the 5.1. Too bad the magic is gone though. I use the SA-2 pre-preamp with my 5.1 so I have enough gain for low output MC cartridges. The SA-2 is also pure tube including the rectification and voltage regulations. Both the SA-2 and the SA-5.1 use 8 tubes with 4 of the 8 tubes doing power supply duty.
 
Davey-I noticed you said "was a vegan." What happened? Humans weren't designed to subsist only on raw vegtables. I always told my vegan sister that she was going to walk across the street and get run over by a meat truck anyway so she might as well rejoin the carnivore herd. I have another sister whose arms are too short and she can't push off from the dinner table so she is fatter than 3 hogs. Go figure.

Actually the PC term is "plant-based" diet since people adopt this style of eating for many reasons :)
 
The 5.1 has an outstanding sounding phono stage which was really designed for high ouput MC cartridges and/or MM cartridges. It does have two sets of phono inputs with one set labeled "MC." You can also change the loading by inserting resistors into sockets on the main circuit board. The phono section in the 5.1 is pure tube unlike the inferior sounding SA-5000 and the rest of the "1000" series preamps that came later. You might actually be thinking of the SA-5000 as it had resistive loading available with a turn of a switch on the front panel. And since it has J-Fets tied to the phono section, it has much more gain than the 5.1. Too bad the magic is gone though. I use the SA-2 pre-preamp with my 5.1 so I have enough gain for low output MC cartridges. The SA-2 is also pure tube including the rectification and voltage regulations. Both the SA-2 and the SA-5.1 use 8 tubes with 4 of the 8 tubes doing power supply duty.

Yeap - I was thinking on the 5000, thanks for the clarification.
 
Listen my children and ye shall here about the midnight ride of me and my tin ears. Seriously, I have a little story to tell so put on your boots and roll your pant legs up. As most of you know who have been reading anything I have written over time, I am an analog/tube lover. For those among you who count those as unforgivable sins, please read no more and go do something enjoyable like a double-blind test between two Class D amps or something.

I consider the heart of my stereo system to be my Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp. Every signal passes through my preamp whether it is coming from a music server, CD player, R2R, or my turntable. Therefore, my preamp has a tremendous influence on the final sound of all my sources. My SA-5.1 has been back at Mike Elliott’s place since September 15th. I sent it back to have the final upgrades done which is a complete rebuild of the power supply including a new Plitron power transformer (I previously had the line stage and phono stage rebuilt and all the RCA jacks replaced). I am also having the volume pot replaced with a DACT pot. The bottom line here is that if you have heard a Counterpoint SA-5.1 in a previous life, my 5.1 is not your grandfather’s 5.1. I still think the original circuit was a thing of aural beauty, having it rebuilt with the latest and greatest passive parts just makes it shine more.

OK. So my 5.1 has been gone for quite some time and I probably still won’t see it until around February (Mike’s tech was killed in a tragic bike accident which threw his already slow schedule asunder). Several months ago I purchased a couple of components to hold me over until my 5.1 comes back. I bought an ARC LS-17 line stage and an ARC PH-3SE phono stage. I bought both components from the original owners and they were both in excellent condition (my LS-17 looks brand new). Total retail value when new was about $6,500 for both pieces. Not exactly chump change, but still chump change to some of you.

Now the ARC gear is many generations newer than my 5.1 and more expensive sans the upgrades I have had installed. It should be much better right? I mean time marches on and all of that right? The ARC gear is very quiet and thus clean sounding. It is also lean sounding. I do believe the upper bass and lower midrange are shelved down which makes the bottom end (20-40Hz) stand out as well as the upper midrange and high end. I found myself having to concentrate on enjoying my system and that makes no sense if you think about it. There is simply too much information missing with the ARC combo and I think the main culprit is the LS-17. Everything is too lean and clean and much of the musical message has been scrubbed away in the process. If you are one of those who can’t make a purchasing decision unless you have been blindfolded and tortured first, I bet you couldn’t tell the ARC LS-17 from a SS preamp. I doubt I could if you boxed my ears and tied the blindfold on me. Which should come as no surprise, as the LS-17 is basically a SS line stage which just happens to sport a pair of the Russkie super tubes. The power supply and all voltage regulation is SS. Does anyone wonder why ARC uses vacuum tube voltage regulation and even sometimes rectification in their top-tier line stages?? I’m not going to ask a Dolph like question here. The reason ARC uses vacuum tubes in the power supplies of their most expensive line stages is that it sounds better. And yes, it’s more expensive to implement.

So yesterday I was still at my brother’s house after our Christmas celebration and he offered to let me take his 5.1 back home until mine shows up. My bro’s 5.1 had the line stage rebuilt by Mike Elliott, but nothing else. Out comes the LS-17, but I left the PH-3SE in there as I didn’t want to make too many changes at once. Wow. Now instead of my music sounding like a paint-by-numbers painting that had too many numbers left with no paint on them, but enough that you could tell what you were looking at suddenly had all of the missing numbers filled in. Can you say relax and enjoy the music? I can and I did. I would say that the ARC LS-17 is sort of like being a vegan. Your all thin and gaunt while you proclaim how healthy you are (I have a sister who is a vegan and her doctor has told her she must now eat cooked foods and meat as she had become seriously ill due to her vegan diet). The 5.1 is more like a carnivore-it does eat vegetables, but it feasts on the meat as well which gives it plenty of meat on its bones. With the ARC LS-17, you pretty much just get the bones.

Now I’m hungry. Somebody please pass the meat and gravy to me as I’m over the vegan diet I have been on.

I think it would be interesting for you to hear the new ARC gear Mark. I'd label the ARC LS17 exactly as you described. The LS-17 eminates from a period where the ARC "sound" was going from tubey to a "whitish" coloration but hightly detailed. Many said that you could pull the two tubes out and the unit would still play :)

Now, CP is exactly the opposite of ARC and there's no mistaking that it's a tube unit in the best sense! So I'm not surprised at all by your reaction. And one of the best systems I heard many years ago was based around the 5.1 and CP amps, SOTA table/ET1/AQ404 and Vandersteen 2s. That system could image like a son of a gun and had a midrange to die for. The CP OTL designed by Roger Modeski was super on the right speakers too.

BTW, was that your bro's Xmas present to you? What did he get in return?
 
The only present I got from my bro this year was the reissue of Tom Petty's Damn the Torpedoes LP. And I only got that because he drew my name out of the hat for a Christmas present. My family is basically a bunch of cheap skates so they decided a few years ago that we would stop buying presents for everyone. Everyone gets their name thrown in a hat at Thanksgiving and you write down several gift ideas you want. Outside of this little fun game, I still exchanged presents with my mother and my brother and his wife. The rules got changed this year and my bro and his wife dropped us of the list but I didn't get the memo so I still showed up with presents for him and his wife. These are just the kind of things that make Christmas so special.

Back on track here, I would love to hear some of the newer ARC gear. Everyone is dumping their REF 3s now for REF 5s, but I don't know if the REF 3 would clearly "best" my 5.1 and it is still fetching north of $5K.
 
Mark, my sister-in-law was having many issues with being a vegan. Among others, she was getting problems with her digestive system and her complexion was very poor. One of the issues was her inability to get enough protein in the diet. Now she eats fish and chicken and is doing way better.
BTW, I still think if you like a tube based preamp you should hear the CAT SL1...either the new Renaissance or Legend. IMHO, these are in a different league to the SA5.1s. I even way prefer my SL1-Sig with rolled in tubes to the 5.1:) YMMV.
 
Davey,
Your sister-in-law had the same problem my sister did. The bottom line is they had to give up the "healthy" vegan diet. As for CAT, I think you forgot that I used to own the SL-1 signature MKII (the one where they replaced the 12AU7s with 6922s). The CAT never floated my boat and I sold it to a friend of mine. I know you are passionate about all things that come from Ken Stevens. I am only passionate about some of the things that came from Mike Elliott. I would love to hear one of Ken's newer preamps that he considers much the better than the signature model I had. I probably couldn't afford it though. I know this is going to sound crazy since the CAT is chock-a-block full of tubes, but it reminded me of a SS preamp. I always blamed that outboard power supply with the garden hose you couldn't disconnect.
 
Mark, on one of the A'gon forum threads, I had a discussion with several of their members as to which supplies the sound of tubes more, the amp or the preamp. I believed it to be the preamp, BUT was soundly outvoted:p
Anyhow, if the amp provides the sound more, it makes me wander which amp you were using with the SL-1 when it was in your system....perhaps that was the culprit providing the ss sound. In my system, the CAT sounds nothing like a ss preamp...at least not the ones that I have auditioned in my system:)
 
Davey,
I would have voted with you. If I could only have tubes one place in my system, it would be at the preamp end. At the time I owned the CAT preamp, I had both the Quicksilver V4 amps and the mighty Quicksilver MS-190 with the triode input boards. Neither one of these amps would ever be confused for SS. And by the way, I actually preferred the sound of the MS-190 over the V4s. The only problem with the MS-190 was that Mike designed it to be used with real Mullard EL-34s which are tougher than any current production EL-34. Mike runs the EL-34s right at 25w on the plates which is the desgin limit for EL-34s. Not so for the mighty Mullards though. Bottom line is that current production EL-34s just won't stand up for the abuse that Mike's design heaps on them for very long. In my system, it was the preamp Davey, not my tube power amps that tilted my system. I would listen to another CAT in a nanosecond if I had one available.
 
I do believe the upper bass and lower midrange are shelved down which makes the bottom end (20-40Hz) stand out as well as the upper midrange and high end. I found myself having to concentrate on enjoying my system and that makes no sense if you think about it. There is simply too much information missing with the ARC combo and I think the main culprit is the LS-17.

Perhaps something is wrong with the ARC. In this century, there is no reason for a properly functioning high-end preamp, particularly a line stage, to have such a strange frequency response.
 
Jay-Designers play all sorts of tricks in order to "voice" their gear to whatever affect they are shooting for. If you read Myles' comment above, the LS-17 came from a period in time where ARC was changing their house sound (again). And ARC has gone through many changes in the sound of their gear over the years. Think SP-6 and SP-14. Think SP-10 and SP-11. Think REF-1, REF-2, REF-3, REF-5, and now the anniversary line stage. In this century as you said, why couldn't they all sound the same? You pays more, and sometimes you gets more (how's that for great English?). At any one slice of time, ARC usually has a dizzying array of preamps on the market and I would venture to say they all sound different. As to why the LS-17 sounds the way I think it does (and apparently I'm not alone), I pinned the tail on the donkey of shelving the frequency response down in the upper bass and lower midrange. That is the effect I hear. I could certainly be wrong about the cause.

If you were looking for a line-stage that sounds super clean (and it does), has a very nice bottom end and vocals and high frequencies sound really good, this could be your line stage. I can see why it has its admirers and I hope I find one of them when I do sell it.
 
I understand what you are saying about the change in ARC house sound over the years. It's possible that what you heard was a small amount of tuning to achieve that effect rather than a major frequency response variation.

But there is still something disturbing or maybe disappointing about the voicing. This is not an old preamp. If the designers wanted their products to sound this way it seems like a waste of resources to introduce this particular sound as part of an improved and new design in a tube preamp. History repeats itself and there's no progress.
 
Jay-I certainly don't think it is a major frequency response variation. I agree with the "small amount of tuning" as you stated. Since all ARC preamps sound different from one to another, don't you have to conclude they all represent what the designers wanted you to hear at that price point and with that particular product? I would bet anything that as you ascend the ARC preamp line-up, more of what I perceive to be missing to some degree in the LS-17 is restored. If that is not true, then I know that ARC preamps are just not for me.
 

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