ARC VT80SE with KT170 tubes: audio art without artifice

[Ron Resnick]

I own Magnepan 20.7s and their bass is dramatically better than the 3.7s and competitive with many box speakers but they definitely don't have "some of the best bass" I've heard. My Final M35s have much better, more natural and more detailed bass than the 20.7s and they still don't compare to a very high end box speaker for bass. But they do offer a tremendous amount of clarity, detail, and depth of soundstage and tonal purity that exceeds most speakers I've heard.

I have heard 20.7s side-by-side in the same system and on the same electronics and with the same source with one of the smaller Sound Lab models. The ESL has a slight advantage over the magnetic planar in see-through transparency and resolution but I preferred the base extension and impact of the Magnepans.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The other night I heard a very nice musical presentation at @Al M. ’s house from his new digital gear, but only after we made some minor changes and turned off the subs. Too much woofage.

We all get so naturally accustomed to our home system that that becomes our baked in the ears and in the brain reference. I know you are going to reply that your reference is the sound of live music, and not your own system.

 

[Kvali1]

This has turned into a discussion on panels and I love it! I will just say one last thing and then stop. Many agree that panels in general are magical , amongst them I still prefer the the sound lab because of their speed and coherence . I posit that the newer bigger ones with good electronics in a room that’s not too big can deliver a palpable beautiful bass. I have listened to Organ music and sounds real and deep . Often at the shows the soundlab are not paired with strong enough amplifiers and my hope is that in the future they can be displayed with the AGD solos that handle them masterfully. Happy listening y’all !

 

[PeterA]

We all get so naturally accustomed to our home system that that becomes our baked in the ears and in the brain reference. I know you are going to reply that your reference is the sound of live music, and not your own system.

Well, I think Al agreed with me about the improvement, and that is not my own system for his reference. And the two of us do listen to live music together. We will see if he returns to the subs over time. I agree that we all have different references, and we can not ignore the experience we have listening to our own systems often. It informs us. However, too much bass is too much bass, whether we remember the sound of live music, our own systems at home, or some combination of the two. It is also about personal preference. Do we like what we like, or do we strive for something that sounds realistic and natural? You wrote a whole thread about audiophile goals. How much moving air does a listener seek?

I admit to being perplexed by your desire for both woofage and transparency for pop girl with guitar type music. Does Billie Eilish play guitar at Frank Gehry's concert hall? Perhaps her childhood organ lessons inform her art.

 

[Steve williams]

So you re saying that electrostatic panels move air.Simple question.

Youre saying you hear bass and I agree with you,Im saying that the bass produced by panels is not impactful bass. Again it's physics

 

[godofwealth]

Steve,

Strange as it may sound, I’m in complete agreement with you. No electrostatic loudspeakers can match the bass impact of a large dynamic loudspeaker or a powerful sub. As large as my SL G9-7c’s are, they cannot match the bass impact of my REL G1 Gibraltar Mk 2’s. We are in complete agreement here.

What I’m trying to explain, and not doing a very good job of it, is that electrostatics are designed specifically not to inject as much energy into a room as a large dynamic speaker or a subwoofer. That’s a design goal, in fact! What they do is inject as much bass energy in the direction perpendicular to the panel and as little as possible in the direction parallel to the panel. That’s by design. The reason is to avoid exciting room modes, which unfortunately subs are excellent at doing. When I fire up my big REL subs, and walk around my listening room, I hear huge bass peaks and dips. It’s unavoidable.

So, if you want to maximize bass impact, by all means get the largest dynamic loudspeaker you can fit into your listening room. And add the biggest sub you can squeeze behind them. That’s what 99% of audiophiles do anyway! I have no disagreement with this approach.

But for a tiny percentage of audiophiles like myself, less than 1% of WBF readers I wager, we believe in a different approach. We believe what matters is not sheer bass impact or energy, but quality bass that does not excite room modes. We are perfectly happy to trade off bass impact for the sheer naturalness and transparency of a crossoverless loudspeaker.

 

[Steve williams]

Thats all I was trying to state. of course there is bass with electroststs. However the bass is not impactful nor can it be impactful bass. Ii's simple physics.. Having said that and as I have saiid before I love the sound of Soundlab speakers

 

[WillBthr]

"However the bus (bass) is not impactful nor can it be impactful bass."

I disagree. With SL ELS, the larger panel models are not only capable of reproducing the lowest octave fundamentals but the lack of a crossover(s) (ie. phase) allows for a very natural and impactful bass "focus" and texture.

As everyone should know, sound reproduction systems are all light years off from sounding close to "real life", so it is all left up to compromise, in multitudes of areas.

I like to say, "It is all crap. It's just a question of what crap you can tolerate."

 

[Al M.]

Well, I think Al agreed with me about the improvement, and that is not my own system for his reference. And the two of us do listen to live music together. We will see if he returns to the subs over time.

Yes, for the music that we listened to it seemed an improvement at the time (haven't gone back yet to compare again). At this point I am of two minds regarding the subs. On one hand they add constructively to the sound on some music, on the other hand I don't want them to intrude where they should not. I have already made adjustments in the past with reducing the volume more and more, so we'll see where I end up. They are already dialed in low, at 40 Hz with a steep filter slope of 24 dB/octave.

I can always turn them on and off, of course (easily done with a knob on the preamp), but I'd rather have a situation where I don't change anything regardless of the music played.

 

[godofwealth]

At Harlan Records, a groovy cocktail bar in SF, where they play vinyl records on a McIntosh system. What’s not to like?

 

[godofwealth]

The vibe is very chic. Look at all these antique radios above their vinyl collection.

 

[microstrip]

"However the bus (bass) is not impactful nor can it be impactful bass."

I disagree. With SL ELS, the larger panel models are not only capable of reproducing the lowest octave fundamentals but the lack of a crossover(s) (ie. phase) allows for a very natural and impactful bass "focus" and texture.

As everyone should know, sound reproduction systems are all light years off from sounding close to "real life", so it is all left up to compromise, in multitudes of areas.

I like to say, "It is all crap. It's just a question of what crap you can tolerate."

You are correct. Long ago I have owned for a short time a pair of big Krell KFP750cx with a Krell KP25s, connected with cast cables. Although they could not plays as loud as big box speakers, the Soundlab A1PX bass had real impact - drums percussion had air and such a speed that it created impact - the kind of sound that makes you close your eyes. At that time my room was 30 feet long and the speakers were far away from the front wall, minimizing the back wave cancellation. People should realize that the "physics" of large rooms can be very different from the physics of small rooms. The very large area, coupled with room gain at such low frequencies and drive can create impact.

 

[godofwealth]

I haven’t driven my SL G9-7c really hard yet. Waiting for the panels to break in. It’s been a few months, so perhaps I can start pushing them harder. I think they can really create powerful bass once I can fire up my ARC 750SE’s again.

 

[WillBthr]

Addition: The source material, the capture method, close microphone and pan pots, compressors, reverb, stereo microphone etc... all attempt methods to create a sound canvas or a sound photograph.
I contend that the SL full range ELS do a pretty accurate re-creation of a stereo microphone recording from LF through HF, left to right, texture and timbre of acoustic instruments, an accurate reproduction of the room acoustics, and somehow even size (height) and depth (front to further back)...
I attribute it to no crossover, superfast transient response throughout the entire frequency spectrum (bass too).
A "upright bass" played with thumb/fingers and "double bass" played with bow, properly recorder... SL ELS does an incredible job.
My preference is just that.
Multiple cone speakers in a box with massive time/phase shifting and inversions can't compete. But the woofer(s) can "move the air". Not my preference.
Like I said earlier, it's all crap, it's just what crap you can tolerate.

 

[WillBthr]

Addition 2:On the studio recording subject I've listened to the latest Peter Gabriel tracks. He of course is renowned for producing some of the finest music and the finest sounding music using multiple mics overdubs effects etc etc. They can be incredibly dynamic from pin drops to jet SPL levels. The music sounds remarkable on Soundlab electrostatic speakers at low volume medium volume and high volume. And speaking of bass and drum sounds, the guys who play with Peter Gabriel are some of the finest musicians and they're playing skills and the quality of the recording can highlight those two instruments. Pretty amazing. Yes the sound waves emanate beautifully and I assume because based on Theory the air is moving in my room.

 

[WillBthr]

A final note, I've recorded the organ at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco California.
I have never heard the smaller soundlab speakers. Only the 6 ft 45° and the 7 ft 90°.

 

[godofwealth]

So, I heard the San Francisco Symphony last evening conducted by Esa-Pekka Salonen. The highlight was Stravinsky’s ballet The Firebird. Scored fir a massive orchestra, with a huge brass section, some of whom were arrayed around Davies Hall, three harps, a huge woodwind section, the full gamut of strings, this was a sure fire crowd pleaser. And at the end of the 45-minute piece, the audience of more than 1000 erupted in applause, and the standing ovation went on for many minutes.

Many points that Steve made I found myself nodding at. When the bass drum is first played during the piece, your heart just stops. It’s like a massive thunderclap that echoes through the hall. At climaxes, the decibel level in my side box near the orchestra was over 100 dB as measured on my Apple watch. My watch gave me an alert warning for excessive sound levels.

But the quiet sections, beginning with first murmuring of the double basses in the beginning, to the gentle strumming of the three harps, to the gorgeous solos for English horn were just as delightful.

No, I don’t think my SL G9-7c can reproduce the dynamics of the orchestra playing Firebird. That said, I don’t think any speaker exists that can do it. I’d be terrified if I played music at those decibel levels. It would shatter my windows. Plus I’d quickly grow deaf if I listened every night at those sound levels. The live experience remains unmatched in my experience. That’s why we go to live unamplified concerts in a real hall. Amazing concert that also featured the Alban Berg violin concerto.

 

[godofwealth]

Warning from my iPhone on excessive sound levels during the Firebird concert last evening. You don’t want to listen at these levels if you want to keep your hearing.