Munich HighEnd 2024

[morricab]

And that makes sense, considering the coupling.
Troels' DTQWTs include several xo sections, whereas the Hørning contains a single hp.

As for John Marsh's remarks, especially wrt the mouth size: the mouths of at least 80% of all commercially available bass horns are undersized.

Yes, but TQWTs are not pure horns...they are a mix of horn, reflex and TL.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

It depends on the size of diaphragms a.o.

Several systems at Munich featured BMS drivers, among which the Thrax Audio Gaida.
The sound of those coaxial 459.. drivers is (sometimes) perceived as less natural, with a 'plastic' shimmer, which may be noticeable with vocals and acoustic instruments. This is usually more apparent with bigger drivers.

Metal diaphragms are hard to beat when it comes to reproducing cymbals and other metal (snare) instruments.
Soft (ketone) polymer diaphragms (as used by Faital Pro a.o.) tend to sound 'forgiving', which many people like, but which may be
too much of a good thing for larger diaphragms.

However, there are no absolutes in this regard (as well) and personal preferences may vary.

 

[matthias]

@D.Duttilleux
AFAIK, Martion Audio also use BMS drivers.
Correct?

 

[Audiohertz2]

It depends on the size of diaphragms a.o.

Several systems at Munich featured BMS drivers, among which the Thrax Audio Gaida.
The sound of those coaxial 459.. drivers is (sometimes) perceived as less natural, with a 'plastic' shimmer, which may be noticeable with vocals and acoustic instruments. This is usually more apparent with bigger drivers.

Metal diaphragms are hard to beat when it comes to reproducing cymbals and other metal (snare) instruments.
Soft (ketone) polymer diaphragms (as used by Faital Pro a.o.) tend to sound 'forgiving', which many people like, but which may be
too much of a good thing for larger diaphragms.

However, there are no absolutes in this regard (as well) and personal preferences may vary.

Metal Domes work well but only with an inverted center point ( not full concave) there are tricks you can do for soft-domes to match them without the dreaded resonance issues of metal domes ..

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Yes, but TQWTs are not pure horns...they are a mix of horn, reflex and TL.

True of course, I'll get to this later.

 

[morricab]

It depends on the size of diaphragms a.o.

Several systems at Munich featured BMS drivers, among which the Thrax Audio Gaida.
The sound of those coaxial 459.. drivers is (sometimes) perceived as less natural, with a 'plastic' shimmer, which may be noticeable with vocals and acoustic instruments. This is usually more apparent with bigger drivers.

Metal diaphragms are hard to beat when it comes to reproducing cymbals and other metal (snare) instruments.
Soft (ketone) polymer diaphragms (as used by Faital Pro a.o.) tend to sound 'forgiving', which many people like, but which may be
too much of a good thing for larger diaphragms.

However, there are no absolutes in this regard (as well) and personal preferences may vary.

Metal domes sound best to me. I hear the plastic in other materials commonly used. Ti or Al diaphragms and with a polymer suspension seems to work very well.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Please, can you elaborate on the BMS sound signature in comparison to a titanium dome compression driver for example of the same size.
Thx

Again, it depends, on quite a number of technical variables.

In general, perceivable differences between 1" drivers are rather subtile.

That said, even between 1" drivers with a titanium dome audible differences exist, primarily related to (damping of) resonances.

The BMS drivers can sound slighty rough/strained in the midrange, depending on output levels and crossover frequency.
There's another aspect worth mentioning: the shape of the diaphragm. BMS uses annular diaphragms that 'behave' differently and require different phase plugs.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Metal domes sound best to me. I hear the plastic in other materials commonly used. Ti or Al diaphragms and with a polymer suspension seems to work very well.

This is also my experience.

 

[matthias]

Metal domes sound best to me. I hear the plastic in other materials commonly used. Ti or Al diaphragms and with a polymer suspension seems to work very well.

Yes, but I would prefer Ti

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Metal Domes work well but only with an inverted center point ( not full concave) there are tricks you can do for soft-domes to match them without the dreaded resonance issues of metal domes ..

Not entirely true. There are several small titanium dome drivers (nearly) devoid of breakup.

This even applies to some 3" (diaphragm) drivers such as the nitride coated 18Sound 3(S)N.

Waterfall of one of my own drivers (titanium + mylar suspension) with a suboptimal waveguide:


1" driver with polyester diaphragm:



Here's Vance Dickason's WF of the BMS ND5530, but with a different (smoother tractrix) horn and different measurement conditions:



It's best to focus on the resonances > 10 kHz, because the horn affects the response below.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

And for comparison: the notorious tzzzzing of a large format, hard suspended titanium diaphragm.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

@D.Duttilleux
AFAIK, Martion Audio also use BMS drivers.
Correct?

Yes, I believe a BMS coaxial is used in the Einhorn.

Bert Doppenberg modified a ND4592 for his Orphean horn.

 

[morricab]

Yes, I believe a BMS coaxial is used in the Einhorn.

Bert Doppenberg modified a 4590 for his Orphean horn.

Do you hear a plastic coloration in that implementation?

 

[Argonaut]

A brief selection of Genres :

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Do you hear a plastic coloration in that implementation?

Not in isolation.
Only in direct comparison with other large format drivers - using the same horn, differences become noticeable.
The coax drivers sound very good, considering the internal complexity.

The same applies to the 1" drivers, but you've got to respect the drivers' comfort zone. So while it may still sound ok, crossed at 800Hz, it'll sound better crossed at 900/1000 Hz. I know a guy who builds large multiple entry horns and he uses the coax drivers from about 1000 Hz, instead of 270 Hz like Bert Doppenberg does. It's the type of horn vs the required output levels that can make a huge difference.

 

[Audio_Karma]

A lot people were raving about the Diptyque Room and was one of the very best rooms at Munich !

 

[orfeo_monteverdi]

[please forgive my poor English]

I am regularly in contact with a WBF member who just ordered a pair of AlsyVox Botticelli X.
He attended Munich 2024. His decision is based on a long listening session made after Munich (as a validation before buying).
He listens mainly to classical music (as I do). I hardly spoke about AlsyVox with him before so as not to influence him.
[Update: I had also urged him to go and listen to the Diptyque room, which he did, given the very good feedback from the two first days]

Personally, I find the AlsyVox extremely expensive, but simply jaw-dropping too (jaw-dropping specs for a panel, jaw-dropping sound if properly setup). By far my best sound of the show in Veldhoven, The Netherlands, in 2023.

(I know the Diptyque DP-140 MKII quite well too, powered with "hybrid" Kora electronics; very nice but not "perfect" - If I was buying something, the DP-140 MKII wouldn't be my choice to convey music, but as products, they are terrific - I never heard the bigger models DP 160MKII and Reference - very interesting French brand anyway).

 

[davidavdavid]

The video is on Facebook, it has been monetized. Someone is making money. Its a non licensed, homebrew phone copy. It sucks. When the official one comes out it will make a good thread.

Just because a video is online (Facebook) does not necessarily mean it is being or can be monetised. Even Zuckerberg has criteria for video uploads, and this being unlicensed, unofficial and "home-brew" does little to assist in its monetisation. The downloadable video I extracted can be played at a decent enough volume for the entire video to be understood. Members can play the file through their desktop or even their full-blown Hi-Fi systems. If members want to start a whole thread (gasp), the extracted video to which I linked would be far more than sufficient. Again, why anyone would start a thread about it beggars belief.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Not many people have commented on the Totaldac room.

The small horn is a (modified) Beyma that costs €20

Here's the modified version that was used for Munich 2024, with the original behind it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Not many people have commented on the Totaldac room.

The small horn is a Beyma that costs €20

I did , it sounded quit nice .
The solid state amplifier doesnt harsh on top .