Mikey seemed to really like this Integrated Amplifier!

[mep]

John-Have you heard the Emotiva amps? I wouldn't buy them just because they are cheap. I would want to make sure I could live with their sound.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

John-Have you heard the Emotiva amps? I wouldn't buy them just because they are cheap. I would want to make sure I could live with their sound.

Hi Mark,

I have heard XPA-2's (and other models), but not the XPA-1's. I personally thought that the XPA-2's had a lot of oomph and are quite neutral sounding, thereby the consideration. Of course, they don't compare to the big boys in the audio manufacturing world, but I have financial limitations that need to be taken into account. And I know you didn't mean it that way, but I wouldn't call a $2,500 investment in power amplification cheap.

I am nowhere near deciding on any component, but I wanted to bring forth an alternative.

 

[mep]

John-You are right, $2500 isn't a cheap investment. If you know you like the Emotiva sound, I'm sure you will be happy.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Emotive offers a 30-day, no questions return/refund policy. You only risk the cost of return shipping. And John, I wouldn't assume they don't compare to the big boys in the audio market. Their direct sales model, minimal marketing, simple physical design and straightforward engineering approach are all things that can very effectively eliminated unnecessary costs. I suspect $2500 worth of Emotiva is a lot more than $2500 in the world of the "big boys." And I know what I hear -- yes Mark, I've heard them -- very low noise, very clear, precise mids, excellent bass control, and that "sense of effortlessness" all of us overhead freaks long for. I've heard the XPA-1s with an Emotive pre. I liked 'em. Almost as good as active .

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

I did. I' m prone to overstatement sometimes myself. The statement I over-reacted to --



Yes we can agree that the resolution of a component can "filter out" emotional impact, if that component is so dysfunctional that it is incapable of communicating the emotional message. In the context of what we discuss here daily, though, it is not a relevant point, IMO. There are great differences in fidelity between the systems discussed here, but I'm confident that, in a receptive mood, I coud get the same emotions from music played on frank's HTIB that I'd get from Steve's Lamms and Wilson's. Your emotional responses may, indeed, vary, I' m afraid.

Tim

You are lucky.

 

[mep]

Emotive offers a 30-day, no questions return/refund policy. You only risk the cost of return shipping. And John, I wouldn't assume they don't compare to the big boys in the audio market. Their direct sales model, minimal marketing, simple physical design and straightforward engineering approach are all things that can very effectively eliminated unnecessary costs. I suspect $2500 worth of Emotiva is a lot more than $2500 in the world of the "big boys." And I know what I hear -- yes Mark, I've heard them -- very low noise, very clear, precise mids, excellent bass control, and that "sense of effortlessness" all of us overhead freaks long for. I've heard the XPA-1s with an Emotive pre. I liked 'em. Almost as good as active .

Tim

Tim-I'm glad to know that you have heard them and are recommending them based on what you have heard.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Tim-I'm glad to know that you have heard them and are recommending them based on what you have heard.

Mark - I get the sense that despite your answer you are not convinced of Tim's response or my thoughts on what I've heard.

 

[mep]

Mark - I get the sense that despite your answer you are not convinced of Tim's response or my thoughts on what I've heard.

Not true at all John. I have not heard the Emotiva amps and therefore I have no idea how they sound so I'm in no position to recommend them or not recommend them. It would be foolish either way without having heard them. And if Tim tells me he has heard them and is basing his recommendation on what he has heard, I believe him. And if you choose to buy them and have a 30 day money back guarantee, you can't lose. At the end of the day, all that matters is what you think.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Not true at all John. I have not heard the Emotiva amps and therefore I have no idea how they sound so I'm in no position to recommend them or not recommend them. It would be foolish either way without having heard them. And if Tim tells me he has heard them and is basing his recommendation on what he has heard, I believe him. And if you choose to buy them and have a 30 day money back guarantee, you can't lose. At the end of the day, all that matters is what you think.

Thanks Mark for your followup on my post, I appreciate it. And you're right, in the end it only matters how pleased I am (or anyone else) with the choices they make. We are all looking to achieve the same thing and that thing is pleasure. It matters little (to a degree) what brand we chooose, and if we are happy with our choices, then all is good.

 

[Orb]

Again from F.Toole. I am sure that , at less, you will appreciate the part about bias :

The origin of emotion in a listener is the art itself—the music or movie—and not the audio hardware. It is inconceivable that a consumer could feel an emotional attachment to a midrange loudspeaker driver, yet without good ones, listening experiences will be diminished. Since the true nature of the original sound cannot be known to listeners, one cannot say “it sounds as it should.” But listeners routinely volunteer opinions on scales that are variations of like-dislike, which frequently have a component of emotion.

Descriptors like pleasantness and preference must therefore be considered as ranking in importance with accuracy and fidelity. This may seem like a dangerous path to take, risking the corruption of all that is revered in the purity of an original live performance. Fortunately, it turns out that when given the opportunity to judge without bias, human listeners are excellent detectors of artifacts and distortions; they are remarkably trustworthy guardians of what is good. Having only a vague concept of what might be correct, listeners recognize what is wrong. An absence of problems becomes a measure of excellence. By the end of this book, we will see that technical excellence turns out to be a high correlate of both perceived accuracy and emotional gratification, and most of us can recognize it when we hear it.

I agree with this and to me it is not an overstatement.
More recent research has been done that identifies a link between music and speech, and importantly that emotion is also conveyed.
In the past I have mentioned my own musings about musical chords, but there is also research showing that there is a defined preference for musical chords and how they can also be linked to emotion.
Some studies show activity in the brain and link between music-speech, others relating to musical chords and preference-etc, and quite a few on musical timing that is also essential and can be tied into our interpretation of speech-emotion.
However an underlying aspect in all these is emotion.

What does this have to do with speakers?
Quite a lot IMO as they need to critically reproduce the said complex soundwaves and the many musical chords and importantly nuanced timing, which all tie in with the above and help to assist with emotion-interpretation of the music.
It would take a fair amount of time to try and identify the papers I have on this subject but there are research studies in all the areas I mention above on this very subject (including musical chords).
Anyway thought I would just add to this albeit in summary, as IMO it is a very interesting aspect of music and also musical reproduction.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Good post, orb. On toole -i perhaps our views of things like pleasant and preferred are colored by the variety of our experiences.

Toole's experience is with listeners in volume matched, blind, controlled listening, and as he and Shawn have both said, most people prefer more accurate reproduction under these conditions. My experience is in a retail showroom where many people seem to sincerely prefer, for what reasons I do not know, booming bass and sizzling treble, and on some (not here) audiophile forums where subjectivism rules with an iron hand and the notion that enough clean headroom into speakers with relatively even response both on and off axis might present a more faithful representation of the recording than a 3 watt valve amp into a pair of beaming, glaring horns, is not only summarily rejected, but often met with something bordering on violence.

On the question of preferred chords, I know it well. I prefer, for example, the open g major, played in the first position, with, an added D on the B string at the third fret. It doesn't change the chord fundamentally, as there is already a D in the chord in that position, but it adds a second, an octive higher and right next to the E, giving the chord a harmonic chime I really like. This is the very essence if nuance. The question is how much system nuance does it take to hear it? More than a transistor radio, less than an iPod with a decent pair of earbuds. Nothing that defines the difference between the most expensive and the most humble systems we discuss here in WBF.

Just looking for a bit of perspective.

Tim

 

[Orb]

Good post, orb. On toole -i perhaps our views of things like pleasant and preferred are colored by the variety of our experiences.

Toole's experience is with listeners in volume matched, blind, controlled listening, and as he and Shawn have both said, most people prefer more accurate reproduction under these conditions. My experience is in a retail showroom where many people seem to sincerely prefer, for what reasons I do not know, booming bass and sizzling treble, and on some (not here) audiophile forums where subjectivism rules with an iron hand and the notion that enough clean headroom into speakers with relatively even response both on and off axis might present a more faithful representation of the recording than a 3 watt valve amp into a pair of beaming, glaring horns, is not only summarily rejected, but often met with something bordering on violence.

On the question of preferred chords, I know it well. I prefer, for example, the open g major, played in the first position, with, an added D on the B string at the third fret. It doesn't change the chord fundamentally, as there is already a D in the chord in that position, but it adds a second, an octive higher and right next to the E, giving the chord a harmonic chime I really like. This is the very essence if nuance. The question is how much system nuance does it take to hear it? More than a transistor radio, less than an iPod with a decent pair of earbuds. Nothing that defines the difference between the most expensive and the most humble systems we discuss here in WBF.

Just looking for a bit of perspective.

Tim

Yeah agree and it leads on to some deep food for thought as you mention with how good does the system have to be do reproduce this (also with the complexity that emotion will have varying levels and conditioning-memory-etc).
Makes this hobby fun and interesting
Cheers
Orb

 

[microstrip]

(...) Toole's experience is with listeners in volume matched, blind, controlled listening, and as he and Shawn have both said, most people prefer more accurate reproduction under these conditions. (...)

The experiments carried by the Harman group were carried in the demanding and rigorous conditions needed for mass audio development, but IMHO most of them can not be extrapolated to the high-end audiophile world.

Consider their listening tests comparing speakers. AFAIK, they developed a fantastic mechanical system that quickly places speakers in their room for quick comparison, always exactly in the same place for every speaker and using always the same ancillaries. My limited experience is that every audiophile speaker has an optimal place in a room where it will show its best - non optimized placement can kill the the sound of a speaker. And I would not choose the same system to drive SoundLabs, Sonus Faber or Wilsons.

We can learn a lot form their papers, but it is not possible to make "cut and paste" of their conclusions for individual cases without considering the limitations imposed by the "controlled conditions".

 

[garylkoh]

On the question of preferred chords, I know it well. I prefer, for example, the open g major, played in the first position, with, an added D on the B string at the third fret. It doesn't change the chord fundamentally, as there is already a D in the chord in that position, but it adds a second, an octive higher and right next to the E, giving the chord a harmonic chime I really like.

On the subject of preferred chords - people remember this?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The experiments carried by the Harman group were carried in the demanding and rigorous conditions needed for mass audio development, but IMHO most of them can not be extrapolated to the high-end audiophile world.

Consider their listening tests comparing speakers. AFAIK, they developed a fantastic mechanical system that quickly places speakers in their room for quick comparison, always exactly in the same place for every speaker and using always the same ancillaries. My limited experience is that every audiophile speaker has an optimal place in a room where it will show its best - non optimized placement can kill the the sound of a speaker. And I would not choose the same system to drive SoundLabs, Sonus Faber or Wilsons.

We can learn a lot form their papers, but it is not possible to make "cut and paste" of their conclusions for individual cases without considering the limitations imposed by the "controlled conditions".

I think the tests were designed for the rigorous and demanding conditions required by sound methodology for eliminating bias and evaluating preferences in a statistically significant way. I'm pretty sure the price of the gear and the size of its potential market have no impact on the results. With that said, I know you're right that some speakers are very sensitive to both their placement in-room and the amplifiers driving them. But I trust the scientists at HK are smart enough to know that placement for a conventional box speaker will not optimize a bi-pole or di-pole, and that if a speaker is designed to use room gain from close proximity to walls/corners, that their speaker changer will not be ideal. I think they probably also know that some components/speakers do not work within common standards/play well with others. The latter, IMO, is the fault of the speakers and components, not HKs testing methodology.

Tim

 

[Fast/Forward]

Hi John!
I don't know what you budget or space requirements are but go tube!
Consider the Antique Sound Labs for integrated tube amps. Their Hurricane power amp won Best of from The Absolute Sound and other products with similar topology have had positive reviews, if that means anything.
I bought an ASL (I had looked at a Vincent amp a couple of years ago but the distributor in Quebec said I had to get the Vincent amp from the States) using KT 88 tubes with 5/15 watts (triode/pentode switch) driving 93db efficient speakers. You can use the pentode setting when you want volume for rock. Tube watts seem to play louder than equivalent solid state watts so your milage may very. The ASL amp is on about 5-10 hours a day and there were no issues aside from the source selector knob slipping loose. Fixed by tightening it's screw.
An audition may be possible at the Canadian distributor in Waterloo.
Prima Luna is available locally and should be on your short list.
Just take your time, make sure you know EXACTLY what your requirements are. When you know what you really want there won't be much to choose from.
Have fun choosing!

 

[fas42]

There are great differences in fidelity between the systems discussed here, but I'm confident that, in a receptive mood, I coud get the same emotions from music played on frank's HTIB that I'd get from Steve's Lamms and Wilson's

Missed that the first time 'round! I am indeed flattered, Tim ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Consider their listening tests comparing speakers. AFAIK, they developed a fantastic mechanical system that quickly places speakers in their room for quick comparison, always exactly in the same place for every speaker and using always the same ancillaries. My limited experience is that every audiophile speaker has an optimal place in a room where it will show its best - non optimized placement can kill the the sound of a speaker. And I would not choose the same system to drive SoundLabs, Sonus Faber or Wilsons.

Sorry to go OT, but this brings up an interesting point. Dynamic drivers need to be heavily conditioned, loosening up their suspensions with a solid workout, before any critical assessment can be made. At least in my experience: one of the reasons why panel speakers always make a good initial impression, I suspect -- there's nothing to "warm up". So how does this factor get handled in this situation; or does no-one worry about such things ...

Frank

 

[microstrip]

Sorry to go OT, but this brings up an interesting point. Dynamic drivers need to heavily conditioned, loosening up their suspensions with a solid workout, before any critical assessment can be made. At least in my experience: one of the reasons why panel speakers always make a good initial impression, I suspect -- there's nothing to "warm up". So how does this factor get handled in this situation; or does no-one worry about such things ...

Frank

Frank,

HK people disagree about this need of conditioning drivers - they consider that the only explanation for driver burn-in is conditioning the listeners, not the speakers.

My limited experience does not go in this sense. IMHO some speakers need as you say some conditioning for a significant time - I anticipate that some people will immediately conclude it is either my fault or the speaker was badly designed.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Hi John!
I don't know what you budget or space requirements are but go tube!
Consider the Antique Sound Labs for integrated tube amps. Their Hurricane power amp won Best of from The Absolute Sound and other products with similar topology have had positive reviews, if that means anything.
I bought an ASL (I had looked at a Vincent amp a couple of years ago but the distributor in Quebec said I had to get the Vincent amp from the States) using KT 88 tubes with 5/15 watts (triode/pentode switch) driving 93db efficient speakers. You can use the pentode setting when you want volume for rock. Tube watts seem to play louder than equivalent solid state watts so your milage may very. The ASL amp is on about 5-10 hours a day and there were no issues aside from the source selector knob slipping loose. Fixed by tightening it's screw.
An audition may be possible at the Canadian distributor in Waterloo.
Prima Luna is available locally and should be on your short list.
Just take your time, make sure you know EXACTLY what your requirements are. When you know what you really want there won't be much to choose from.
Have fun choosing!

Thanks for your input Sir, and yes, PrimaLuna is another IA I am considering, which I should have already mentioned. The other is Simaudio as I heard 3 different systems at the TAVE show and really liked the sound. This despite the fact they were paired with different speakers.

I'm going to try like hell to make it to the Montreal SSI show at the end of March/early April and see some more candidates.