I completely agree, and it is easy to make out if we ourselves stay intellectually honest that the attributes he writes about are there to be heard, not just made up text. The final preference can vary, but the attributes are there. Also, his writing style is direct and to the point.
Michael Fremer's home power-system story
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
I completely agree, and it is easy to make out if we ourselves stay intellectually honest that the attributes he writes about are there to be heard, not just made up text. The final preference can vary, but the attributes are there. Also, his writing style is direct and to the point.
You have the M1.2R, a balanced unit, not the single ended units. Both Steve an David addressed this aspect before me.
No minimization, on the contrary - I say that some specific certified electricians are competent to carry audio wiring. But there will be always some specific aspects in power wiring for audio.
US and Europe have different codes for neutral and ground, debating them here will be confusing and besides, useless to the thread. Mains wiring is filled with compromises, we must ask ourselves what we want to maximize and minimize.
The M1.2 Ref is not a balanced circuit. Fwiw, I have used and am using other single-ended Lamm gear as well.
You make a generalized statement about problems with grounding Lamm equipment, then point to other people without any reference to what they said? That is usually called 'hearsay'.
The M1.2 REF has a real balanced input - FIY please read from the Stereophile review:
"The M1.2's two RCA input jacks are in parallel with pins 2 and 3 of the input XLR—when the amplifier is to be driven single-ended, the unused RCA is shorted to ground with the supplied plug to minimize noise pickup. The hot and cold signal phases are each taken by short lengths of shielded cable to a Burr-Brown BUF634 chip: a unity-gain, high-speed video buffer. These chips then feed the "military grade" 6922 tube via a differential pair of JFETs" (end of quote)
Contrary to some other Lamm amplfiiers the M1.2R XLR is balanced with two phases. In the ML2 family and ML3 the minus input is shorted to ground - the XLR is there only for convenience. I have used it both ways, even with the L2 REF that has both balanced and SE outputs. I preferred the SE mode.
And no, it is not "hearsay". It is "WBFreadsay". We addressed these subjects several times in this forum, unfortunately you seem to retain little of our previous discussions and then surely are not able to follow the threads. Again FIY according to safety codes an amplifier that needs to be operated with a cheater plug to avoid hum has a grounding problem.
BTW, Mike Lavigne also reported grounding issues when using the ML3. Fortunately David helped him solving them.
That's a rather loose definition of 'real'. I don't need to read a Stereophile review for Lamm specifications when I can read the factory manual or my own review. The M1.2Ref has external XLR connectors but it is not a balanced circuit - it is not a "balanced unit".
Ergo your claim is false:
You did not talk about the ML3 - you made a claim about "our Lamm equipment." Whose that is - who is "we" - is left ambiguous. If you are going to criticize a manufacturer you need to know your facts and be very clear in your writing. Remember this is someone's livelihood.
Francisco - let's not play word games. If you want to use what someone else said as the explanation for your claim, then get off your ass and point directly to those words or include them in your post.
Somehow ( and yet not unusually ) this thread has veered away from the core topic.
I cannot speak for the OP or for Rex & co, but I do feel that anyone that 1) owns their home and can do work on the infrastructure ( maybe not the case for some high rise buildings ) and 2) is considering spending 5 figures on cords and conditioners may well benefit from an objectice appraisal of their electrical infrastructure. Sure we can debate what changes are 'best' but dealing with panels, grounds and noisemakers is very practical and valuable...
I cannot speak for the OP or for Rex & co, but I do feel that anyone that 1) owns their home and can do work on the infrastructure ( maybe not the case for some high rise buildings ) and 2) is considering spending 5 figures on cords and conditioners may well benefit from an objectice appraisal of their electrical infrastructure. Sure we can debate what changes are 'best' but dealing with panels, grounds and noisemakers is very practical and valuable...
The input stage is balanced two OPA, after then it will currios one 6922 tube can unfortunately see how the circuit track of the board looks from below. I think it creates a different distortion behavior. I would have done something different first stage 6922 second stage 6N6 or 6h30 tube. real hybrid amp shouldn't be bashing, sound really good
second pic one chanel of this
second pic one chanel of this
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Please read the Lamm specs at their site : http://www.lammindustries.com/PRODUCTS/m2spec.html
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| 3-pin XLR connector brass, gold plated, single-ended RCA connector brass, gold plated, single-ended RCA connector |
Jack and David, both Lamm dealers, addressed this aspect of the M1.2R long ago. At that time Jack seemed to prefer the balanced mode, David the single ended.
Or Paul Bolin on the M1.2R
"The Lamm was noninverting when driven via its balanced XLR input, which appears to be wired with pin 2 hot, and via the red unbalanced RCA jack (with the other, white jack shorted to ground with the supplied plug). The input impedance was to specification at 41k ohms (unbalanced or each phase of the balanced input) across the audioband. The balanced voltage gain at 1kHz into 8 ohms was high, at 31.7dB in both the High Impedance (Hi-Z) and Low Impedance (Lo-Z) bias conditions. The unbalanced gain, with the other input shorted, was the same, instead of 6dB lower, as expected."
BTW, I just went again through your very nice review of the M1.2R - and I found :
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Call it what you want, IMHO it was simply a grounding problem - XLR wiring is standard, although sometimes phases are reversed. I have used the MP1 mk3 with many balanced amplifiers and never had any problem. Only sold it because the mk3.3 upgrade needed shipping back to the factory.
Hello all. Glad you enjoyed the video. I have a bit to say about it in further posts, but I wanted to drop a couple quick thoughts.
First. Michaels room is oddly good sounding. I don't know how. It seems it should not be. But after our work was complete, I was stunned and said I could live with this system as an end all setup. Michael simply commented, I should hope so.
2nd. Michael is a very down to earth, honest person. I don't feel any underlying adjenda with him. I feel he tells it like he perceives it. For example, he said my entry level Allnic H1201 is so so with the MC input, but it can sound very good with a SUT into the MM. I then went and got a Bobs Device step up and was shocked how beautiful my vinyl plays. Its top of the heap again.
Lastly, there was nothing particularly unusual about Michaels infrastructure when I got there. It was pretty much like most homes I see. His basic layout was to code and like every other generator installation. A prior electrician had installed commercial type wiring with MC cable in the room. The same type install I performed in high rise, hospitals and data centers. The same type of electrician people say should have no problem wiring your home audio system. But audio is finicky. Your amplifying a minuscule mV from a phono cartridge over multiple steps to get to where you can push the cones in a speaker with significant force. I actually credit Michael with realizing something was not right. Most people have no idea and live with issue they don't realize are present. Michaels experience and expertise in what he does led him to seek improvement on what he had. I of course am biased, but I believe he went about it the correct way and addressed the foundation of audio, the power energizing the system. From there, everything he plugs in will now work at its highest level.
Additionally, Michaels system is now set up coreect with basic, readily available components. A step above what the average homeowner may use, but still available at say a Home Depot. He is not using the more exotic highly optimized panels and grounding I offer. So in reality, his system is a very solid baseline where the products he reviews should have repeatable results in any properly laid out system.
Rex
Kingrex Electric
First. Michaels room is oddly good sounding. I don't know how. It seems it should not be. But after our work was complete, I was stunned and said I could live with this system as an end all setup. Michael simply commented, I should hope so.
2nd. Michael is a very down to earth, honest person. I don't feel any underlying adjenda with him. I feel he tells it like he perceives it. For example, he said my entry level Allnic H1201 is so so with the MC input, but it can sound very good with a SUT into the MM. I then went and got a Bobs Device step up and was shocked how beautiful my vinyl plays. Its top of the heap again.
Lastly, there was nothing particularly unusual about Michaels infrastructure when I got there. It was pretty much like most homes I see. His basic layout was to code and like every other generator installation. A prior electrician had installed commercial type wiring with MC cable in the room. The same type install I performed in high rise, hospitals and data centers. The same type of electrician people say should have no problem wiring your home audio system. But audio is finicky. Your amplifying a minuscule mV from a phono cartridge over multiple steps to get to where you can push the cones in a speaker with significant force. I actually credit Michael with realizing something was not right. Most people have no idea and live with issue they don't realize are present. Michaels experience and expertise in what he does led him to seek improvement on what he had. I of course am biased, but I believe he went about it the correct way and addressed the foundation of audio, the power energizing the system. From there, everything he plugs in will now work at its highest level.
Additionally, Michaels system is now set up coreect with basic, readily available components. A step above what the average homeowner may use, but still available at say a Home Depot. He is not using the more exotic highly optimized panels and grounding I offer. So in reality, his system is a very solid baseline where the products he reviews should have repeatable results in any properly laid out system.
Rex
Kingrex Electric
I’m confused sone same a power conditioner is bad , can someone explain how a regen fixes power that is fed from a 50 year old alum wire meter pan ?? i thought REGE fix freq and voltage issues. it does not have a reserve power capacity so if power is fluctuating due to bad conduction of voltage I’m not sure it can fix it.
Francisco, you can cut n paste all day long but that will not turn a non-balanced circuit into a balanced circuit. Given your conclusion above after reading reviews and Lamm's own specs, I'm sceptical of your understanding of what you read.
Yes the M1.2 Ref has both RCA and XLR input connectors and one can take measurements based on which input connector is in use.
However, If an amplifier has XLR connectors you cannot tell if it is balanced or not from those alone.
Edit: Btw, your link is to an older version of the Lamm Web site, you might want to update.
Quite simply, the world’s best audio electronics | LAMM
Quite simply, the world’s best audio electronics Established 1993 Explore Products A legacy of audio excellence. Setting the standard for audiophiles the world over, LAMM Industries designs state-of-the-art audio products that deliver breakthrough performance with uncompromised sonic quality...
lammindustries.com
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Rex, did you do any before and after measurements with your scope? It would be really interesting to see how they correlate with the change in the sound quality you got there.
Yes I did. I do at all jobs. Harmonic distortion never changes. If its there it is there. I have never seen a house with less than 2.5% to voltage nor more than 5.5% to voltage. Almost always its a slight raging of the leading edge of the wave. Its almost always a lot of 1 and a little 3. I have very rarely seen some out to 9.
MV potential between neutral and ground goes way down, if not to 0 in most all sections of the system.
Most utilities offer or allow a over head to be fed underground
The overhead is almost always alum
The pics show about 60 to 80 feet
The gauge is typical 6 gauge pretty crappy over all. If converted to underground it’s copper and much larger in size
most utilities give you the wire.
you install all underground piping from meter to pole and 15 feet up on pole
doing so greatly lowers transient voltage changes.
just saying and Rex work looks outstanding
The overhead is almost always alum
The pics show about 60 to 80 feet
The gauge is typical 6 gauge pretty crappy over all. If converted to underground it’s copper and much larger in size
most utilities give you the wire.
you install all underground piping from meter to pole and 15 feet up on pole
doing so greatly lowers transient voltage changes.
just saying and Rex work looks outstanding
Tim,
I can't understand how you are now trying to move the discussion into nebulous waters to avoid the proper discussion around the M1.2R you and many others reviewed.
Let us be factual - we were debating ground problems and hum. These are typically due to input problems - noise induced at the input is amplified. I said the Lamm M1.2 is balanced surely meaning that it has real balanced inputs, making it much less susceptible to ground problems - you also have used it with balanced preamplifiers before.
The M1.2R has balanced input, as said by all other reviewers , Lamm specifications and the M1.2R manual I am reading - do you want me to post a scan?
John Atkinson fully describes all the balanced parameters in his measurement section in 2003 review and later in the reappraisal in 2016. Do you think JA does not know what is a balanced input? Bascom H. King also posted an extremely complete description of the circuit of the similar balanced input M2.1 in his Audio May 1988 review.
Yes, it is why must read and understand the specifications, something it seems you did not do.
The M1.2 has a balanced input.
Edit: Btw, your link is to an older version of the Lamm Web site, you might want to update.
Quite simply, the world’s best audio electronics | LAMM
Quite simply, the world’s best audio electronics Established 1993 Explore Products A legacy of audio excellence. Setting the standard for audiophiles the world over, LAMM Industries designs state-of-the-art audio products that deliver breakthrough performance with uncompromised sonic quality...
Thanks, there is no difference in the input specs between those pages.
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Ralph Karsten was addressing Peter Lamm amplifier, the ML2 single ended, not the M1.2R hybrid. Just to end , even you acknowledged in your review that the M1.2Ref has balanced inputs:
(I am quoting your audiobeat review)
"In the end, non-musical attributes may tip one’s considerations. The M1.2 is a solid-state unit with a single tube, while the Reference 250 uses eleven valves per monoblock. The Lamm amp is single-ended with balanced inputs; the Reference 250 is fully balanced. In summary, each of these amplifiers has its own strong sonic appeal, and I’d love to own them both., "
But you are mistaken - the M1.2 is not single-ended - it is an hybrid class A push pull, as you acknowledge in the review. BTW, fully balanced has a very specific meaning.
Just for curiosity, why do you think that we must insert shorting plugs in the non used RCA input when driving it with a single ended preamplfier? Hint - may be because it has a balanced input ...
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