Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

[RogerD]

Hello Albert. Good to see you posting here.


May I bring this to your attention since Steve was responding on my behalf?

"In addition, we utilize comparison-based listening tests against other top-quality brands of cables. Based on our years of research, highly accurate measurements and A/B/X blind testing, we’re confident MasterBuilt Audio Cables have less distortion and coloration than any other competing cable, at any price!"

Less distortion and coloration than any cable? Can they have tested every cable on the market???

And how about that blind testing? Do you think they can demonstrate that?


I don't know any of your typical customers that would care about ABX testing yet there is a claim of that. And also measurement accuracy. To the extent they open that door, you don't think in an audio discussion forum we can ask those questions?

There are more questions still:

"b) Dielectric absorption of the high frequency component of the music signal by the insulation material creates a non-linear response. Since most elements have “free radical” electrons in their atomic makeup, the musical signal will be affected when the electrons collide with the dielectric’s “free radical” electrons. This distortion creates a “fog” over the music that masks realism. MB’s solution is to use dielectric materials that do not alter the electrical signal. Our proprietary formulation consists of vacuum-formed Teflon, which is as close to perfection as possible in reducing dielectric distortion. Our Teflon coating is applied with a proprietary method that does not result in free radical Teflon electrons placed in the signal path."

Are we to believe that all other cables create such fog? As you know there is no music that is produced using MB cables. Are we to assume all of our music has such fog embedded in it?

Other than a handful of members here, all the rest use different brands of cables. Are they listening through such fog?

If free radicals in the insulation are the cause (putting aside the fact that there are processes for making wire insulation that does not involve such), how about this in the FAQ:

"Do MasterBuilt Audio cables have a break-in period? If so, why?
The fact is that all high fidelity components, including cables, sound better after a few weeks or even months of use. In the case of cables, MasterBuilt’s design engineers have been aware of this phenomena for years and can even measure the effects of break-in. When a cable is “raw” (has not been used), the molecules in the conductor path have not been aligned by the flow of electrons from the music signal. After several weeks or even months, a pathway in the conductor is created by the constant flow of electrons. Just as important is the interaction of the insulation’s free radical electrons with the outer layer of the conductor material. These free radicals are “pushed out of the way” by the music’s voltage and current."

A few comments here:

1. I thought in the Technology section they say their insulation has done away with Free Radicals. But here they say Free Radicals are in play as far as cable burn-in?

2. They talk about measuring effects of burn-in. This is remarkable as I have never seen such measurements. Showing this data would be groundbreaking. How confident are you that they have such data? Have you seen it?

3. The notion of creating a pathway that stays that way with use violates Entropy which as you know is one of the most fundamental aspects of universe. Run your hand through bathtub. As you do you create a path but once you take our hand out, the pathway does not stay there. If you chemically changed the nature of the atoms/molecules, sure but that is not what is said.

I can go on but I am confident that you would not want to wear their hat and vouch for any of this.

I am happy to donate $1,000 to a charitable cause if they can demonstrate any of this to be true.

On sound quality, I am happy to go anywhere on my own expense to see if anyone by just hearing the cables, i.e. using their ears and only ears, they can distinguish this cable from any other. Again, the same $1,000 donation on top of that stands. This should show you how confident I am that what they say is not correct or based on any verifiable facts.

Again, thanks for being here and posting.

Respectfully,

Interesting have they ever addressed the shield design (shield current induced noise) or common node or differential node noise? Anyway there is no doubt in my mind that this cable does what users say it does. I can tell by the descriptive markers users use and they pretty much describe the same thing. The electron flow I'm sure is effected in the conductor as the design separates these types of noise (SCIN ect),thus the conductor is free from interference and the audio signal travels unimpeded or less so. The termination design of the shield will also effect sound quality as the better the connection to ground is, the less noise is transferred through the system. Whatever the design is that is proprietary and you can't expect them to divulge that information. Just like other cables that were cutting edge I'm sure some other cable company will purchase one,just to analyse the design. YMMV

-p.s. why people say that cables can't be measured is beyond me.....there are very sensitive instruments that can measure noise and other relevant information.

SCIN explained

http://www.rane.com/note166.html

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve,
Again this is not about the sound, this is about technical questions.



I would, to a certain extent. And I would be VERY curious about answers to Amir's valid questions.



No, Amir asked very valid techical questions. They deserve an answer. You may not care, Steve, but I and others do.

As Mike said Al, try the cable and then let's talk. Amir has no interest, "NONE" in this cable. All of you are making inferences based upon suppositions which Amir has said. Amir states emphatically that all cables are the same and he hears no difference. He had a Transparent cable which he got rid of after he couldn't hear a difference between it and an inexpensive cable. I stated my comment that he can't tell what instruments are playing so how are we to believe him when he says he can't hear a difference between cables. His only goal is to discredit everyone but hime self. Something a person like him does daily

 

[amirm]

Not everyone is into giving you all the IP they can fork over.

Giving the 0 to 60 time of a car to prove it is the fastest does not give away any "IP" of said car to achieve that. We are not asking how to go and make the cable ourselves. They say they have measured this and that and it proves their cable to be the best in the world. Just like that car, it is fair to ask what those measurements are since they already have them.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No, Mike.

High-End audio is full of questionable technical claims, and I and others have enough of it.

The technical claims regarding MB cables should be addressed, for the sake of reputation and integrity of the High End. I hope that Albert will provide a convincing response.

Again, this is not about the sound of the cables, on which I cannot comment.

as I said, I do see a little valid interest in these questions; unfortunately.....our friend Amir will bludgeon Albert with the shock and awe of techie exuberance should Albert fall into that trap.

it's the reality of how it works right now here at WBF.

 

[Steve Williams]

as I said, I do see a little valid interest in these questions; unfortunately.....our friend Amir will bludgeon Albert with the shock and awe of techie exuberance should Albert fall into that trap.

it's the reality of how it works right now here at WBF.

the reality is Mike that all of us see right through Amir and yes I agree with you completely

 

[amirm]

Amir states emphatically that all cables are the same and he hears no difference.

No, I said the reverse. I said if *you* or anyone else with your ears and only your ears can tell the difference I will donate $1,000 to your favorite charity. The outcome may just be that: that you can tell the difference. You are unwilling to be tested with your ears alone so I conclude that you cannot.

He had a Transparent cable which he got rid of after he couldn't hear a difference between it and an inexpensive cable.

And I am in great company in the regard. To this comment:

Picked up a pair of Mogami Gold today. Still breaking in but not impressive so far.

Bruce Brown said:

I'd put them up against about anything I've tried.

Have you tried Mogami Gold Steve?

 

[853guy]

No, Mike.

High-End audio is full of questionable technical claims, and I and others have enough of it.

The technical claims regarding MB cables should be addressed, for the sake of reputation and integrity of the High End. I hope that Albert will provide a convincing response.

Again, this is not about the sound of the cables, on which I cannot comment.

Hi Al M,

High-End audio is full of questionable technical claims, that's probably true.

My question to you - purely out of interest rather than arguments sake - is, how many of the products that you use in your system would you be confident have passed strict scientifically-controlled tests for the validity of their performance, including the contact cleaner you wrote about recently ?

Best,

853guy

 

[Leif S]

Hello friends,

As I have said this before in previous post...

My partner Damon and I have clearly stated that we will not be sharing MasterBuilt's proprietary technology to the point where other engineers or manufactures can understand. This thread is about what owners are hearing. The simple truth is, just about every system these cables have gone in, the system according to the owners have been transformed. That is "ALL" that matters and all we care about. If they work for you great. If they don't.....don't buy them.

amirm...

Save your money my friend

 

[RogerD]

No, I said the reverse. I said if *you* or anyone else with your ears and only your ears can tell the difference I will donate $1,000 to your favorite charity. The outcome may just be that: that you can tell the difference. You are unwilling to be tested with your ears alone so I conclude that you cannot.



And I am in great company in the regard. To this comment:


Bruce Brown said:



Have you tried Mogami Gold Steve?

All audio components are effected by their grounding schemes. There is a reason why cables sound different,or duplexes make a difference,or one amplifier other than it's topology has more clarity or a wider soundstage. The design of the pathway to ground makes a significant difference in sonics. Anyway continue on.

 

[853guy]

Giving the 0 to 60 time of a car to prove it is the fastest does not give away any "IP" of said car to achieve that. We are not asking how to go and make the cable ourselves. They say they have measured this and that and it proves their cable to be the best in the world. Just like that car, it is fair to ask what those measurements are since they already have them.

Hi Amir,

The car industry is one of the most heavily regulated in the world, and the agencies responsible for said regulation are numerous and state-funded. Are cars and audio cables equivalent in terms of the federal regulations apropos their performance?

If not, it's a little redundant to except the same levels of disclosure wouldn't you say?

853guy

 

[microstrip]

No, Steve.

Amir raises very valid technical questions in his post, regardless of what his listening capabilities are, which I cannot comment on. I would expect Albert to address these technical questions, in order to prevent my skeptical-o-meter and that of several others to shoot through the roof.

The whole CERN and superconductor thing has already put some, including me, on red alert.

He could raise exactly the same type of questions on the use of batteries to polarize films capacitors in the crossover of the top JBL speakers.

From the JBL PROJECT EVEREST DD66000 TECHNICAL WHITE PAPER about their choice of capacitors:

"Capacitors are constructed using polypropylene foil, which is known for having minimal distortion caused by dielectric absorption nonlinearities. The mid-, high- and ultrahigh-frequency networks employ battery bias to operate the capacitors effectively in a Class A mode".

If he really wants to know he is in a privileged position to ask - and we have good reasons to believe that the basic phenomena in this mode of operation is similar to cable burn-in and similar effects - and yes, it will imply free radicals.

 

[Al M.]

Hi Al M,

High-End audio is full of questionable technical claims, that's probably true.

My question to you - purely out of interest rather than arguments sake - is, how many of the products that you use in your system would you be confident have passed strict scientifically-controlled tests for the validity of their performance, including the contact cleaner you wrote about recently ?

Best,

853guy

Hi 853guy,

the qualms I have with MB's claims are not about scientifically controlled tests, but about the questionable technical claims they make. Free radicals and "fog"? Also, why the blatant inconsistency about "free radicals" that Amir pointed out?

 

[Al M.]

Hello friends,

As I have said this before in previous post...

My partner Damon and I have clearly stated that we will not be sharing MasterBuilt's proprietary technology to the point where other engineers or manufactures can understand.

Leif,

fine, then MB should take down all questionable technical claims from their website and simply state that it is proprietary technology. The CERN and superconductor claims have been taken down already.

This thread is about what owners are hearing. The simple truth is, just about every system these cables have gone in, the system according to the owners have been transformed. That is "ALL" that matters and all we care about.

Fine. If the sound is all you care about then MB doesn't need to make any questionable technical claims on their webite. Just make none, and tell people to simply listen.

 

[microstrip]

Leif,

fine, then MB should take down all questionable technical claims from their website and simply state that it is proprietary technology. The CERN and superconductor claims have been taken down already.

Fine. If the sound is all you care about then MB doesn't need to make any questionable technical claims on their webite. Just make none, and tell people to simply listen.

It would not be fair. Most high-end manufacturers of similar products do the same - using technical meaningless sentences to capture the attention of people, that then will try the product. IMHO a manufacturer that will not do it will be out of business fast.

IMHO MB really deserves an accolade for taking the inaccurate facts from their site when they were warned about them. YMMV.

 

[DaveyF]

Leif,

fine, then MB should take down all questionable technical claims from their website and simply state that it is proprietary technology. The CERN and superconductor claims have been taken down already.



Fine. If the sound is all you care about then MB doesn't need to make any questionable technical claims on their webite. Just make none, and tell people to simply listen.

+1

Unfortunately, I strongly suspect that dubious technical claims are made by many manufacturer's to JUSTIFY their outrageous asking prices. The question is, IF the gear in question is so revolutionary and
able to bring an epiphany in SQ, why does the manufacturer have to go down the specious claims route??? Hmmm

 

[Al M.]

+1

Unfortunately, I strongly suspect that dubious technical claims are made by many manufacturer's to JUSTIFY their outrageous asking prices. The question is, IF the gear in question is so revolutionary and
able to bring an epiphany in SQ, why does the manufacturer have to go down the specious claims route??? Hmmm

That's what I am asking myself too.

 

[Al M.]

It would not be fair. Most high-end manufacturers of similar products do the same - using technical meaningless sentences to capture the attention of people, that then will try the product. IMHO a manufacturer that will not do it will be out of business fast.

Not if the cables are really that good that anyone who tries them buys them.

 

[Leif S]

Leif,

fine, then MB should take down all questionable technical claims from their website and simply state that it is proprietary technology. The CERN and superconductor claims have been taken down already.



Fine. If the sound is all you care about then MB doesn't need to make any questionable technical claims on their webite. Just make none, and tell people to simply listen.

Hi Al M,

People should buy a product because they like how that product sounds. I don't know many people who buy audio products based off of what their website says.

MasterBuilt does have proprietary materials used in these cables. But if they shared what they are doing or how they are doing this, well it's not so proprietary anymore is it. I have no intention on discussing our approach to crossover design or any other aspect on how we design loudspeakers. Or are crossovers just crossovers and there is no difference between one speaker manufacturer to another?

People should just listen

 

[Folsom]

People should just listen

^

 

[PeterA]

Hi Al M,

People should buy a product because they like how that product sounds. I don't know many people who buy audio products based off of what their website says.

MasterBuilt does have proprietary materials used in these cables. But if they shared what they are doing or how they are doing this, well it's not so proprietary anymore is it. I have no intention on discussing our approach to crossover design or any other aspect on how we design loudspeakers. Or are crossovers just crossovers and there is no difference between one speaker manufacturer to another?

People should just listen

I used to think the audiophile should just listen and the designer/manufacturer should be the one who cares about the science, uses measurements and then also listens to refine his products, but it is clear that some audiophiles are interested in learning about the technology behind these products and may enjoy reading the published patents and white papers of companies like MIT, Spectral and Pass Labs.

It's nice to think people should just listen, but I now understand that that is not enough for all audiophiles, and some companies understand this too, so they support some of their claims with technical data. It must be a hard balance to reach and as this thread makes clear, there is some conflict about claims and available information about products. The questions raised in this thread could be asked of many high end audio products. MasterBuilt seems to be getting much of the attention because of the extremely positive reports, the high prices, and perhaps because they are new to the scene.

I'd love to hear them someday in a familiar system, knowing full well that I could never afford them. And, though I mostly "just listen", I must say, I'm a bit curious about the how and why these cables supposedly work as well as they do.