Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

Can't believe this thread is still going considering a 1m IC costs more than my speakers ;)

But quite frankly, never understood pairing Lamm with Nordost in the first place so no doubt the improvements are real.
 
But I still think cable manufacturers should publish basic RLC figures. Not for determine how good the cable sound. But a way to determine whether the cable is suitable for certain loudspeakers. Some loudspeakers do not like high capacitance or inductance.

MB is not alone in not publishing any data. Most high end cable manufacturers never publish any electrical properties of their cables.

What are the the loudspeakers that do not like high capacitance or inductance?

IMHO capacitance is an important parameter for IC cables, but only when using very long cables.
 
Someday I would love to hear what all the fuss us about but don't know anyone local who has any of the MB stuff.
 
Can't believe this thread is still going considering a 1m IC costs more than my speakers ;)

But quite frankly, never understood pairing Lamm with Nordost in the first place so no doubt the improvements are real.

interesting.

so when you were at my house a few years ago and told me how much you really liked the system it was all tongue in cheek ;). Drive down again for a listen and let's talk
 
Can't believe this thread is still going considering a 1m IC costs more than my speakers ;)

But quite frankly, never understood pairing Lamm with Nordost in the first place so no doubt the improvements are real.

I'm Running a mix of Signature and Reference cables at home. The cables retail total is about the same as my speakers and electronics total.
 
interesting.

so when you were at my house a few years ago and told me how much you really liked the system it was all tongue in cheek ;). Drive down again for a listen and let's talk

No, I just have never liked Nordost- believe I even mentioned that to you in Danville with your original Valhalla at the time.

As far as Nordost with SET, Ive never known anyone with that combination and it seems atypical. I'm sure Vlad knows much more than I though. My Shindo dealer sells quite the opposite kind of cables (Shindo and A23).
 
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Why would anyone buy or even try a product that makes unsupported technical claims?

Hello Speedskater,
I found it interesting when you did not answer the questions I personally responded to you at audio Circle. Once again, you are asking a similar question, which needs no answer, if you are a knowledgable thinking man. First, as you are well aware, MasterBuilt has made no claims that they can't directly prove. Whether or not they want to respond to you is another question. Second, as Mike LaVine has pointed out, this group of audiophiles does not buy expensive products based on specs or ads, they buy what apeals to them on many levels. Sound, beauty, aesthtics, and utility are far more important than which Japanese receiver toutes the lowest distortion. When you have spent almost 40 years buying and selling very high quality stereo components, you'll come to understand what our members are trhing to teach you. No hard feelings here, friend, only my love of great sound (along with the truth) motivates my response.
I
 
Second, as Mike LaVine has pointed out, this group of audiophiles does not buy expensive products based on specs or ads, they buy what apeals to them on many levels. Sound, beauty, aesthtics, and utility are far more important than which Japanese receiver toutes the lowest distortion. When you have spent almost 40 years buying and selling very high quality stereo components, you'll come to understand what our members are trhing to teach you. No hard feelings here, friend, only my love of great sound (along with the truth) motivates my response.
I

Indeed, there are a group of audiophiles that buy expensive products based only on sound, beauty, aesthetics and everything else you mentioned. However, I think you would agree that every competent manufacturer designs expensive products based first and foremost on science and engineering - like yourself, I presume - then sound and finally aesthetics. To not put science and engineering first in any design would amount to amateur engineering, in my mind, and I surely have seen those as well. Therefore, there is another group of audiophiles that value great engineering designs just as much as the sound they make. Consequently, the other members you are referring to have actually taught me personally (and perhaps many others equally valuing science and engineering) absolutely nothing. As such, I found Speedskater's question quite on point.

First, as you are well aware, MasterBuilt has made no claims that they can't directly prove

Personally, I have not seen any proof for the claims they make, especially pertaining to super-conductors and/or the CERN relationship, as were touted in the past, before all these claims were taken down from the website... I am not sure that it matters at this point either, as we have moved on since then.
 
Personally, I have not seen any proof for the claims they make, especially pertaining to super-conductors and/or the CERN relationship, as were touted in the past, before all these claims were taken down from the website...

+1
 
I think if someone can come out with product that works and that flies in the face of good science, well then they really have something to talk about:eek:. I do think many times in this hobby, the consumer is asked to just trust the manufacturer as the product really does wondrous things and to not worry much about the science, as it is probably above their pay grade anyway:rolleyes:. In reality, what is being stated is a) the science is minimal at best, b) there may be a SQ upswing or not, but IF you believe it is there, then that is good enough c) If you believe it strongly enough then you will convince yourself of the benefits and value, and lastly d) IF we can get away with charging enough, even if it is an obscene amount, then you will know you bought a quality piece.
Personally, I thing this type of marketing is akin to the flim flam man approach...but I guess that is just me:confused:. Plus, it matters little to me in a way, as I always compare all of my options and make sure that i do them in my system. The rare exception is if I buy something on the used market and the price is ( to me) a bargain. Again, I would NEVER just try one set of cables, no matter the price, unless I had compared several different types and makes in my system- and had been convinced by the results that i had the absolute best for the system...regardless of how the initial pair sounded. Once again, that's just me, LOL.:cool:
 
Hello Speedskater,
Hello Albert. Good to see you posting here.

I found it interesting when you did not answer the questions I personally responded to you at audio Circle. Once again, you are asking a similar question, which needs no answer, if you are a knowledgable thinking man. First, as you are well aware, MasterBuilt has made no claims that they can't directly prove.
May I bring this to your attention since Steve was responding on my behalf?

"In addition, we utilize comparison-based listening tests against other top-quality brands of cables. Based on our years of research, highly accurate measurements and A/B/X blind testing, we’re confident MasterBuilt Audio Cables have less distortion and coloration than any other competing cable, at any price!"

Less distortion and coloration than any cable? Can they have tested every cable on the market???

And how about that blind testing? Do you think they can demonstrate that?

Second, as Mike LaVine has pointed out, this group of audiophiles does not buy expensive products based on specs or ads, they buy what apeals to them on many levels. Sound, beauty, aesthtics, and utility are far more important than which Japanese receiver toutes the lowest distortion. When you have spent almost 40 years buying and selling very high quality stereo components, you'll come to understand what our members are trhing to teach you. No hard feelings here, friend, only my love of great sound (along with the truth) motivates my response.
I
I don't know any of your typical customers that would care about ABX testing yet there is a claim of that. And also measurement accuracy. To the extent they open that door, you don't think in an audio discussion forum we can ask those questions?

There are more questions still:

"b) Dielectric absorption of the high frequency component of the music signal by the insulation material creates a non-linear response. Since most elements have “free radical” electrons in their atomic makeup, the musical signal will be affected when the electrons collide with the dielectric’s “free radical” electrons. This distortion creates a “fog” over the music that masks realism. MB’s solution is to use dielectric materials that do not alter the electrical signal. Our proprietary formulation consists of vacuum-formed Teflon, which is as close to perfection as possible in reducing dielectric distortion. Our Teflon coating is applied with a proprietary method that does not result in free radical Teflon electrons placed in the signal path."

Are we to believe that all other cables create such fog? As you know there is no music that is produced using MB cables. Are we to assume all of our music has such fog embedded in it?

Other than a handful of members here, all the rest use different brands of cables. Are they listening through such fog?

If free radicals in the insulation are the cause (putting aside the fact that there are processes for making wire insulation that does not involve such), how about this in the FAQ:

"Do MasterBuilt Audio cables have a break-in period? If so, why?
The fact is that all high fidelity components, including cables, sound better after a few weeks or even months of use. In the case of cables, MasterBuilt’s design engineers have been aware of this phenomena for years and can even measure the effects of break-in. When a cable is “raw” (has not been used), the molecules in the conductor path have not been aligned by the flow of electrons from the music signal. After several weeks or even months, a pathway in the conductor is created by the constant flow of electrons. Just as important is the interaction of the insulation’s free radical electrons with the outer layer of the conductor material. These free radicals are “pushed out of the way” by the music’s voltage and current."


A few comments here:

1. I thought in the Technology section they say their insulation has done away with Free Radicals. But here they say Free Radicals are in play as far as cable burn-in?

2. They talk about measuring effects of burn-in. This is remarkable as I have never seen such measurements. Showing this data would be groundbreaking. How confident are you that they have such data? Have you seen it?

3. The notion of creating a pathway that stays that way with use violates Entropy which as you know is one of the most fundamental aspects of universe. Run your hand through bathtub. As you do you create a path but once you take our hand out, the pathway does not stay there. If you chemically changed the nature of the atoms/molecules, sure but that is not what is said.

I can go on but I am confident that you would not want to wear their hat and vouch for any of this.

I am happy to donate $1,000 to a charitable cause if they can demonstrate any of this to be true.

On sound quality, I am happy to go anywhere on my own expense to see if anyone by just hearing the cables, i.e. using their ears and only ears, they can distinguish this cable from any other. Again, the same $1,000 donation on top of that stands. This should show you how confident I am that what they say is not correct or based on any verifiable facts.

Again, thanks for being here and posting.

Respectfully,
 
Hello Albert. Good to see you posting here.


May I bring this to your attention since Steve was responding on my behalf?

"In addition, we utilize comparison-based listening tests against other top-quality brands of cables. Based on our years of research, highly accurate measurements and A/B/X blind testing, we’re confident MasterBuilt Audio Cables have less distortion and coloration than any other competing cable, at any price!"

Less distortion and coloration than any cable? Can they have tested every cable on the market???

And how about that blind testing? Do you think they can demonstrate that?


I don't know any of your typical customers that would care about ABX testing yet there is a claim of that. And also measurement accuracy. To the extent they open that door, you don't think in an audio discussion forum we can ask those questions?

There are more questions still:

"b) Dielectric absorption of the high frequency component of the music signal by the insulation material creates a non-linear response. Since most elements have “free radical” electrons in their atomic makeup, the musical signal will be affected when the electrons collide with the dielectric’s “free radical” electrons. This distortion creates a “fog” over the music that masks realism. MB’s solution is to use dielectric materials that do not alter the electrical signal. Our proprietary formulation consists of vacuum-formed Teflon, which is as close to perfection as possible in reducing dielectric distortion. Our Teflon coating is applied with a proprietary method that does not result in free radical Teflon electrons placed in the signal path."

Are we to believe that all other cables create such fog? As you know there is no music that is produced using MB cables. Are we to assume all of our music has such fog embedded in it?

Other than a handful of members here, all the rest use different brands of cables. Are they listening through such fog?

If free radicals in the insulation are the cause (putting aside the fact that there are processes for making wire insulation that does not involve such), how about this in the FAQ:

"Do MasterBuilt Audio cables have a break-in period? If so, why?
The fact is that all high fidelity components, including cables, sound better after a few weeks or even months of use. In the case of cables, MasterBuilt’s design engineers have been aware of this phenomena for years and can even measure the effects of break-in. When a cable is “raw” (has not been used), the molecules in the conductor path have not been aligned by the flow of electrons from the music signal. After several weeks or even months, a pathway in the conductor is created by the constant flow of electrons. Just as important is the interaction of the insulation’s free radical electrons with the outer layer of the conductor material. These free radicals are “pushed out of the way” by the music’s voltage and current."


A few comments here:

1. I thought in the Technology section they say their insulation has done away with Free Radicals. But here they say Free Radicals are in play as far as cable burn-in?

2. They talk about measuring effects of burn-in. This is remarkable as I have never seen such measurements. Showing this data would be groundbreaking. How confident are you that they have such data? Have you seen it?

3. The notion of creating a pathway that stays that way with use violates Entropy which as you know is one of the most fundamental aspects of universe. Run your hand through bathtub. As you do you create a path but once you take our hand out, the pathway does not stay there. If you chemically changed the nature of the atoms/molecules, sure but that is not what is said.

I can go on but I am confident that you would not want to wear their hat and vouch for any of this.

I am happy to donate $1,000 to a charitable cause if they can demonstrate any of this to be true.

On sound quality, I am happy to go anywhere on my own expense to see if anyone by just hearing the cables, i.e. using their ears and only ears, they can distinguish this cable from any other. Again, the same $1,000 donation on top of that stands. This should show you how confident I am that what they say is not correct or based on any verifiable facts.

Again, thanks for being here and posting.

Respectfully,

Yawn.
How can you ask questions when you don't listen to music and only hear sounds

By your own admission here you cannot even identify which music instrument you are hearing so enough of your trolling....


http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ool%92s-errand&p=359161&viewfull=1#post359161
 
Yawn.
How can you ask questions when you don't listen to music and only hear sounds

By your own admission here you cannot even identify which music instrument you are hearing so enough of your trolling....


http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ool%92s-errand&p=359161&viewfull=1#post359161

No, Steve.

Amir raises very valid technical questions in his post, regardless of what his listening capabilities are, which I cannot comment on. I would expect Albert to address these technical questions, in order to prevent my skeptical-o-meter and that of several others to shoot through the roof.

The whole CERN and superconductor thing has already put some, including me, on red alert.
 
NOTE: I didn't say anything about the sound of these cables, this is about technical claims that seem questionable until addressed properly and convincingly.
 
No, Steve.

Amir raises very valid technical questions in his post, regardless of what his listening capabilities are, which I cannot comment on. I would expect Albert to address these technical questions, in order to prevent my skeptical-o-meter and that of several others to shoot through the roof.

while I can see a little rational to your comments, mostly I'd recommend Albert to ignore technical questions made for the express purpose of creating conflict. Amir has zero interest in this product personally (and zero valid basis to ask the questions).......and his MO is to grind through any technical discussion getting maximum techie points ignoring actual use of a product. he does not care about this product. this is so obvious it hardly needs mentioning.

it would be a complete waste of Albert's time and only create more conflict.

don't take the bait.

if someone wants to buy (or sincerely demo) these cables, and has questions in that context, then that is completely different.
 
It's all good Al. People make choices. There's vanilla, chocolate and strawberry. You pay your money and take your chance. All of you are speaking without hearing the cable. As for the science I really could care less because I'm sure I wouldn't understand it. What I care about is the sound and for my ears it is the best cable I have personally ever hear. As for flim flam science Davey I would say come up to my house for a listen. Everything else including Amir's statements are speculation and nothing more.
 
It's all good Al. People make choices. There's vanilla, chocolate and strawberry. You pay your money and take your chance. All of you are speaking without hearing the cable. As for the science I really could care less because I'm sure I wouldn't understand it. What I care about is the sound and for my ears it is the best cable I have personally ever hear.

Steve,
Again this is not about the sound, this is about technical questions.

As for the science I really could care less because I'm sure I wouldn't understand it.

I would, to a certain extent. And I would be VERY curious about answers to Amir's valid questions.

As for flim flam science Davey I would say come up to my house for a listen. Everything else including Amir's statements are speculation and nothing more.

No, Amir asked very valid techical questions. They deserve an answer. You may not care, Steve, but I and others do.
 
It's all good Al. People make choices. There's vanilla, chocolate and strawberry. You pay your money and take your chance. All of you are speaking without hearing the cable. As for the science I really could care less because I'm sure I wouldn't understand it. What I care about is the sound and for my ears it is the best cable I have personally ever hear. As for flim flam science Davey I would say come up to my house for a listen. Everything else including Amir's statements are speculation and nothing more.
If they had measurements of said "fog" in every other cable, you wouldn't have to jump up and down and ask people to come to your house to believe you.
If they had measurements of break-in then you and countless other people would not have to keep insisting it is true.
If they had measurements of "free radicals" from the insulation invading the conductor in the cable and hence coloring it, you wouldn't have to keep insisting that this is the best cable you have heard.

You would have no trouble understanding any of this. Give yourself more credit.
 
while I can see a little rational to your comments, mostly I'd recommend Albert to ignore technical questions made for the express purpose of creating conflict.

No, Mike.

High-End audio is full of questionable technical claims, and I and others have enough of it.

The technical claims regarding MB cables should be addressed, for the sake of reputation and integrity of the High End. I hope that Albert will provide a convincing response.

Again, this is not about the sound of the cables, on which I cannot comment.
 

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