Mark Levinson on today’s audio industry

[PeterA]

Just to point that unobtainium or rare items are always an exception to market rules. Such market is often a question of luck, it is a lottery.

Describing something as “unobtainium” to someone who has one is a bit curious. I used to think that about a mint condition Micro Ski S X 8000 II. My dealer was able to find one. Then I thought the extremely limited American Sound AS1000 simply did not exist for sale. I was then offered one for sale. I then thought the less limited American Sound AS2000 was no longer available. Guess what? I was offered one so I bought it.

You might describe that as luck, but I know that luck had nothing to do with it. And it certainly is not a lottery. Both of those imply a randomness. None of what I described above is random, and I found that some things thought to be unobtainable, in fact can be found and obtained. I have heard similar examples in other hobbies.

Audio brokers and dealers selling used gear usually sell it with a very limited time warranty - they do not become responsible for service after that period. Most of the time, only when dealers sell used equipment from their regular brands they assume such service.

If we want very good deals on used gear - I think it is the objective of buying used there is always some risk. Don't expect great deals from someone who stands by what he sells. He needs to make profit. The good deals mostly come from private sales, that are usually sold as is, no warranty at all.

This gets back to my earlier point. Find a good dealer who is trustworthy and can get you what you want. New or used, there are times when an audio dealer is necessary, just like in other things. But, I understand some choosing a different route.

 

[microstrip]

Describing something as “unobtainium” to someone who has one is a bit curious. I used to think that about a mint condition Micro Ski S X 8000 II. My dealer was able to find one. Then I thought the extremely limited American Sound AS1000 simply did not exist for sale. I was then offered one for sale. I then thought the less limited American Sound AS2000 was no longer available. Guess what? I was offered one so I bought it.

Well, they mach the definition of "unobtainium"

"Unobtainium is a tongue-in-cheek term used to describe any material or component that impossible (or extremely difficult) to actually obtain — either because it doesn’t exist, is prohibitively expensive, or is beyond current technological capability. "

You might describe that as luck, but I know that luck had nothing to do with it. And it certainly is not a lottery. Both of those imply a randomness. None of what I described above is random, and I found that some things thought to be unobtainable, in fact can be. I have heard similar examples in other hobbies.

Ok, you are right. It is just a question of money. Anyone could get them easily if they wanted to pay a lot. But usually people buy used to save money, it is what was being mainly addressed. Lottery would be getting a mint SX 8000 mk2 for 5000!

This gets back to my earlier point. Find a good dealer who is trustworthy and can get you what you want.

Probably it is also a good example of "unobtainium" . But yes there are many scammers in the net who will get all the used gear you want at discount prices.

New or used, there are times when an audio dealer is necessary, just like in other things. But, I understand people choosing a different route.

Nice to see you changed the subject to include "new" gear. We can now agree.

Do you realize you are mainly addressing very expensive systems, in the range of the top of high-end pricing?

 

[PeterA]

.

Do you realize you are mainly addressing very expensive systems, in the range of the top of high-end pricing?

I did not mention price. And the top of high-end pricing is not defined. I assure you that I paid less for my entire system than the most expensive DAC’s cost today. Absurd is it not?

 

[microstrip]

I did not mention price. And the top of high-end pricing is not defined. I assure you that I paid less for my entire system than the most expensive DAC’s cost today. Absurd is it not?

Surely our systems price is an absurd. Anyway your system was too expensive on a basis of cost per recording. How many LPs do you own? Admitting a few thousand you are paying several tens of usd per recording. The guy buying the most expensive DAC pays tens of cents per recording.

IMO anyone owning top Lamm, Wadax or dCS gear should be prudent with the use of the word absurd.

 

[wil]

I did not mention price. And the top of high-end pricing is not defined. I assure you that I paid less for my entire system than the most expensive DAC’s cost today. Absurd is it not?

And there are $500k turntables.

 

[PeterA]

Surely our systems price is an absurd. Anyway your system was too expensive on a basis of cost per recording. How many LPs do you own? Admitting a few thousand you are paying several tens of usd per recording. The guy buying the most expensive DAC pays tens of cents per recording.

IMO anyone owning top Lamm, Wadax or dCS gear should be prudent with the use of the word absurd.

I am not foolish enough to calculate the cost of playing one side of an LP on my system. I don’t even wanna do it if I only consider the cost of the cartridge. For the same reason, I do not calculate the cost every time I step onto my sailboat, spend a night in my house, or drive to work in the morning in my truck. These are all personal decisions.

Surely listening to my records on my system in the evening is a luxury. I could buy a system from a department store and listen to Digital if I wanted to save money or were concerned about the price per play. Or I would just use headphones and listen to my iPhone like the kids do.

That is not the subject of this discussion and only a distraction.

 

[PeterA]

And there are $500k turntables.

Yes, there are. I do not have one. And like the DCS or Wadax, such a turntable would cost more than my entire system.

 

[Stevet]

...

This gets back to my earlier point. Find a good dealer who is trustworthy and can get you what you want. New or used, there are times when an audio dealer is necessary, just like in other things. But, I understand people choosing a different route.

I definitely think that we should reward those brick and mortar hi fi stores which stock large inventories of carefully selected audio product from serious, reliable and consistent brands with good to better engineering which are on the floor and available to experience/listen to when seeking out new items. This is especially true for dealers who hire good, knowledgeable, honest and ethical employees and who take the time and go to the expense to set up good rooms and good listening conditions for all of us. If we do not buy from these dealers they will have no incentive to floor lots of interesting product, let alone stay in business. So yes, find a good dealer or dealers and do business with them. In the long run you and they will be better for it. In the long run I believe you will actually spend less because you are more likely to get what you really want to have and to live with and listen to in the long run. If you develop a good relationship with one or more of these dealers many are likely to let you take home and try out product in your room if you are really interested, show you take good care of the equipment and are likely to buy those items which work for you.

 

[bonzo75]

And there are $500k turntables.

Yeah and they are bling. Not sure what the point is. In fact I think most TT over Brinkmann balance used price (and other similar TTs) are forum posting ownership pride. I only like Vyger sonically outside that bracket, rest is audio play of comparisons to write a post about

 

[andromedaaudio]

Get a second hand 223 phonomaster plus a good 10 - 20 K TT .
Damn it can even beat tape

 

[tima]

But this is the issue with buying used, you have to be patient or you have to buy used. I’

Anyhow, my experience is used is a total crap shoot. I don't buy used anymore. Not unless I can see the piece. Or I know the seller

Yes, patience is a key ingredient to buying used, especially if you know what you want.

In 2018 I started a thread about finding contemporary speakers that work well with an 18W Lamm ML2 series. From experience I am inclined to choose amp first, then speakers. The thread got lots of interesting responses. I was not seeking used speakers, butI felt uncertain about most of the contemporary offerings, many were in Europe and many I did not know. (I did not want overseas service for a large component.) Eventually I opened my mind to used speakers. I had bought used electronics before.

It turns out there is a greater selection of speakers befitting a low wattage SET amp in the vintage category -- what's that? Greater than 15 yrs old? After Peter found his Vitavox, I started talking with David who has immense knowledge about the vintage market and, after a trip to Utah where I heard several of his offerings (TAD, Diatone, JBL) I chose my present day JBLs. I sold my Alexia 2s for more than I paid for the JBLs. That was 2022 - five years from the time I started searching. I used them with my Lamm M1.2 amps and went looking for a pair of used Lamm ML2.2.

Patience is a key ingredient to buying used, especially if you know what you want.

Rex, you kinda answered your own concern. Try to see what you're buying especially if it is speakers. Get to know the seller or someone who is knowledgeable about your interest. Buying used can be *very* successful.

 

[microstrip]

I am not foolish enough to calculate the cost of playing one side of an LP on my system. I don’t even wanna do it if I only consider the cost of the cartridge. For the same reason, I do not calculate the cost every time I step onto my sailboat, spend a night in my house, or drive to work in the morning in my truck. These are all personal decisions.

Well, I think that you do not discuss value for money of your sailboat or your house in forums, the analogy does not apply at all.

Surely listening to my records on my system in the evening is a luxury.

Ok, we agree.

I could buy a system from a department store and listen to Digital if I wanted to save money or were concerned about the price per play. Or I would just use headphones and listen to my iPhone like the kids do.

What is the point?

That is not the subject of this discussion and only a distraction.

In fact it become the subject once you started addressing the relative value of digital.

 

[microstrip]

And there are $500k turntables.

Can any one make a turntable sounding exactly the same at half the cost? IMO is the main point about it, but surely audio gossip is part of WBF.

The high-end is an hobby of the differences - as long as something sounds different is becomes a valid entry.

 

[bonzo75]

Can any one make a turntable sounding exactly the same at half the cost?

Can anyone make a TT sounding exactly the same at double the cost?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Can anyone make a TT sounding exactly the same at double the cost?

assuming when you say cost you mean retail price not true amortized cost to build.......cost, value, performance, desirability and current actual market value are 5 separate things.....loosely related.

value, performance and desirability are mostly perceptions by the whole market, and then by actual intenders which is a separate thing.

so the answer to your question is unknowable.

but it seems the point you are making is that defining actual performance is somewhat elusive. and only slightly related to cost/retail price.....with turntables. past a certain point they are more different than better/worse.

 

[bonzo75]

but it seems the point you are making is that actual performance is somewhat elusive. and only slightly related to cost/retail price.

No the point I am making is that the question I replied to was equally meaningless. You have two different TTs, because two different people made differently, whatever the pricepoints. They will sound different, whether at half the cost or double the cost.

 

[jeff1225]

Yes, patience is a key ingredient to buying used, especially if you know what you want.

In 2018 I started a thread about finding contemporary speakers that work well with an 18W Lamm ML2 series. From experience I am inclined to choose amp first, then speakers. The thread got lots of interesting responses. I was not seeking used speakers, butI felt uncertain about most of the contemporary offerings, many were in Europe and many I did not know. (I did not want overseas service for a large component.) Eventually I opened my mind to used speakers. I had bought used electronics before.

It turns out there is a greater selection of speakers befitting a low wattage SET amp in the vintage category -- what's that? Greater than 15 yrs old? After Peter found his Vitavox, I started talking with David who has immense knowledge about the vintage market and, after a trip to Utah where I heard several of his offerings (TAD, Diatone, JBL) I chose my present day JBLs. I sold my Alexia 2s for more than I paid for the JBLs. That was 2022 - five years from the time I started searching. I used them with my Lamm M1.2 amps and went looking for a pair of used Lamm ML2.2.

Patience is a key ingredient to buying used, especially if you know what you want.

Rex, you kinda answered your own concern. Try to see what you're buying especially if it is speakers. Get to know the seller or someone who is knowledgeable about your interest. Buying used can be *very* successful.

DDK adopted the method of several Japanese audiophiles with the use of modern SET amps with vintage speakers and turntables. Unfortunately for us Americans, the Japanese bought up much of the premium JBL and Altec speakers and parts. Several times I've had to buy JBL parts from Japan, as they are not available here. DDK has procured some of the best high efficiency speakers made, Peter and you were lucky to find such a source.

I took another path by sourcing my JBL's and Garrard 401 at an extremely low price and rebuilding them myself.

Both paths work.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No the point I am making is that the question I replied to was equally meaningless. You have two different TTs, because two different people made differently, whatever the pricepoints. They will sound different, whether at half the cost or double the cost.

if you take two separate designs that are already very expensive and over-the-top and then add more mass to one (engineer this addition technically to yield better measurements), and then design in active isolation to the other one.......it's reasonable to expect both to be more expensive, and sound better objectively to some listeners.

if you double the price of each of these two original designs to add these features with specific attributes (some recognize the improvement) then it becomes a value question.

but agree at the end of the day some might listen and just say 'meh'......a little different......maybe a little better.....maybe not......and might view it as angels on pinhead counting. others view it as crazy but wonderful and desirable. who is right and who is wrong?

at the end of the day some see all turntables past a certain performance level as mostly the same.

 

[bonzo75]

DDK adopted the method of several Japanese audiophiles with the use of modern SET amps with vintage speakers and turntables. Unfortunately for us Americans, the Japanese bought up much of the premium JBL and Altec speakers and parts. Several times I've had to buy JBL parts from Japan, as they are not available here. DDK has procured some of the best high efficiency speakers made, Peter and you were lucky to find such a source.

I took another path by sourcing my JBL's and Garrard 401 at an extremely low price and rebuilding them myself.

Both paths work.

It is not just the Japanese. There is a massive Lansing heritage community in the US, just on other forums including one dedicated to it. WBF etc are dedicated to different equipment.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Yes, patience is a key ingredient to buying used, especially if you know what you want.

In 2018 I started a thread about finding contemporary speakers that work well with an 18W Lamm ML2 series. From experience I am inclined to choose amp first, then speakers. The thread got lots of interesting responses. I was not seeking used speakers, butI felt uncertain about most of the contemporary offerings, many were in Europe and many I did not know. (I did not want overseas service for a large component.) Eventually I opened my mind to used speakers. I had bought used electronics before.

It turns out there is a greater selection of speakers befitting a low wattage SET amp in the vintage category -- what's that? Greater than 15 yrs old? After Peter found his Vitavox, I started talking with David who has immense knowledge about the vintage market and, after a trip to Utah where I heard several of his offerings (TAD, Diatone, JBL) I chose my present day JBLs. I sold my Alexia 2s for more than I paid for the JBLs. That was 2022 - five years from the time I started searching. I used them with my Lamm M1.2 amps and went looking for a pair of used Lamm ML2.2.

Patience is a key ingredient to buying used, especially if you know what you want.

Rex, you kinda answered your own concern. Try to see what you're buying especially if it is speakers. Get to know the seller or someone who is knowledgeable about your interest. Buying used can be *very* successful.

the jbl's are impressive, a friend build a bigger version from that ..940lbs