Mark Levinson on today’s audio industry

[bonzo75]

Hmm, not sure. What about the luxury SOTA $ 300,000 dCS Varese (European) vs the great value for money offered by Schiit DACs and amps (American), for example?

Or which counter examples would you have in mind?

It’s great value. It is worth an Austin powers billion dollars

 

[jeff1225]

I think there is more value to be found in used gear.

Agreed. Also, with used gear there is an established track record of quality and durability over time. The only thing I would buy new is cartridges and digital (if I cared about digital.)

 

[Another Johnson]

I think there's often more value to be found in Canadian or European manufacturers, countries w/much larger middle classes to appeal to.

While you may be right about the percentage defined as middle class, sheer numbers favor the US.

And then there is the disposable income issue … as much as we whine about prices in the US, energy, food, housing and taxes are all generally less than in equivalent Canadian or European (fully developed) countries.

There are a lot more significant drivers to this market than the difference between the size of the “middle class.”

 

[PeterA]

Agreed. Also, with used gear there is an established track record of quality and durability over time. The only thing I would buy new is cartridges and digital (if I cared about digital.)

This makes sense if one can find what he wants on the used market. I have never seen a used sample of my turntable for sale, but only fourteen were made. I saw one AS1000 for sale. It went instantly as soon as the seller mentioned he was upgrading. I had to buy my phono stage new for the same reason. All else besides cartridges is used. A lot of stuff sells quietly without ever being advertised.

 

[Kingrex]

Agreed. Also, with used gear there is an established track record of quality and durability over time. The only thing I would buy new is cartridges and digital (if I cared about digital.)

I hate used. So often an issue. There is the wear and tear that may be at a point you have to send the product to the manufacturer to have it rebuilt. And the representative at the store taking it in will tell you that models is Complete and Total CRAP. Why or why would you have bought that outdated model. You should have bought new. Fool. How about we take it in on trade for the new and shinny model.
The track record according to the manufacturer is, it's outdated and surpassed in quality. If that's not the case, then the whole upgrade industry s a total and complete scam. Which it may well be!!!!!! I will give you that. But I see nothing to support the old model has a track record of quality and durability. That is like saying the new model is parts of inferior quality and designed to break. That there was no trickle down of technology where the best was kept and the issues resolved and improved upon. It is all a backward slide.

 

[jeff1225]

This makes sense if one can find what he wants on the used market. I have never seen a used sample of my turntable for sale, but only fourteen were made. I saw one AS1000 for sale. It went instantly as soon as the seller mentioned he was upgrading. I had to buy my phono stage new for the same reason. All else besides cartridges is used. A lot of stuff sells quietly without ever being advertised.

Your turntable is a one off luxury/vanity piece by a single person manufacturer. There are many examples of this in many hobbies that I enjoy, including guitars and sports cars.

Sometimes these pieces hold their value and sometimes they don’t, only time will tell. The break point is when the single manufacturer is no longer alive.

I’ve seen the Lamm phono come up for sale a few times. But this is the issue with buying used, you have to be patient or you have to buy used. I’ve wanted a Verdier turn table for 15 years, but was only able to purchase one recently.

 

[jeff1225]

I hate used. So often an issue. There is the wear and tear that may be at a point you have to send the product to the manufacturer to have it rebuilt. And the representative at the store taking it in will tell you that models is Complete and Total CRAP. Why or why would you have bought that outdated model. You should have bought new. Fool. How about we take it in on trade for the new and shinny model.
The track record according to the manufacturer is, it's outdated and surpassed in quality. If that's not the case, then the whole upgrade industry s a total and complete scam. Which it may well be!!!!!! I will give you that. But I see nothing to support the old model has a track record of quality and durability. That is like saying the new model is parts of inferior quality and designed to break. That there was no trickle down of technology where the best was kept and the issues resolved and improved upon. It is all a backward slide.

Here’s the way:

1. Have a good local repair person.
2. Buy classic brands where there is a community of people trading these items and making replacement parts and upgrades.
3. Buy low so you have money to invest and repair.
4. Enjoy

 

[Kingrex]

Sounds like a great stock marked investor. Buy Low, Sell High. Always works.

 

[jeff1225]

Sounds like a great stock marked investor. Buy Low, Sell High. Always works.

More like buying a fixer upper house. You have to buy low because once you start remodeling the house, you never know what you’re going to find.

 

[microstrip]

I think there is more value to be found in used gear.

A completely different subject, IMO. Used gear would need a separate thread - it is a very interesting subject, but with with an intrinsically different methodology of system optimization and buying. First critical question - are we an open mind or a narrow mind audiophile?

I have a mixed approach - buying either used or new gear.

 

[PeterA]

Your turntable is a one off luxury/vanity piece by a single person manufacturer. There are many examples of this in many hobbies that I enjoy, including guitars and sports cars.

Sometimes these pieces hold their value and sometimes they don’t, only time will tell. The break point is when the single manufacturer is no longer alive.

I’ve seen the Lamm phono come up for sale a few times. But this is the issue with buying used, you have to be patient or you have to buy used. I’ve wanted a Verdier turn table for 15 years, but was only able to purchase one recently.

All of that is true. The designer of the original AS 1000 is unknown and perhaps no longer living. And no one knows how many of those were built and still out there, but I saw one sell in front of my eyes in a two minute negotiation.

I agree with you about the break point and that depends a lot on whether or not a product is built to last for a long time and can be easily repaired. Look at some of the vintage speakers that continue to maintain high prices and extreme value to what is currently available new. Your turntable is a good example and so is the big micro Seiki.

I’m not sure I would actually describe my turntable as a vanity piece. There are examples of those where a prototype is built, but nothing more and there are no buyers. The entire production run of my turntable was sold out of demand before the first one was actually manufactured. It was built because people wanted it. It’s more about the buyer than the designer. I agree with you that it is a luxury as is a lot of the stuff in this hobby. Congratulations on your new turntable. Someone local here just bought one, but I have not yet visited to hear it.

 

[microstrip]

Hmm, not sure. What about the luxury SOTA $ 300,000 dCS Varese (European) vs the great value for money offered by Schiit DACs and amps (American), for example?

Or which counter examples would you have in mind?

I must say I find the dCS Varese great value for money. It saved me a fortune in top vinyl gear. Also, considering time is money, it is less expensive than it seems.

More seriously if I looked at the high end just considering value for money I would go DIY.

 

[Kingrex]

Rega Osiris, new POS. Broken out of the box. Rega said it was within spec. For a garbage piece of gear.
CJ Premier 140. Use, broken. Got repaired and upgraded. Worked great after that.
Mcintosh Preamp. Forget the model. C40 or something. Used Broken. Told its within spec and to pound sand. Later met someone who knew the issue and said most tech weren't smart enough to fix it.
Audion Black Shadow 845. Used. Don't get me started. POS. Still has issues.
Rogue Audio amp. Used. Worked fine.
Dartzeel NHB 108. Use. Worked fine. When I sold it it went to Herv and he did about $750 in repairs. It needed some TLC but was not failing, Yet.
Found Music Blade amp. New. No mechanical issues. Still trying to get it to blend with my system.

Anyhow, my experience is used is a total crap shoot. I don't buy used anymore. Not unless I can see the piece. Or I know the seller. I don't know. Maybe I would. but its a risk. It is what it is. Old and used. Then again, I have friends that have been burned by a dealer buying new and there are issues that take months to fix. They are out $tens of thousands and have no equipment to play till the plant decides to fix their problems.

 

[microstrip]

This makes sense if one can find what he wants on the used market. I have never seen a used sample of my turntable for sale, but only fourteen were made. I saw one AS1000 for sale. It went instantly as soon as the seller mentioned he was upgrading. I had to buy my phono stage new for the same reason. All else besides cartridges is used. A lot of stuff sells quietly without ever being advertised.

Just to point that unobtainium or rare items are always an exception to market rules. Such market is often a question of luck, it is a lottery.

 

[microstrip]

Here’s the way:

1. Have a good local repair person.
2. Buy classic brands where there is a community of people trading these items and making replacement parts and upgrades.
3. Buy low so you have money to invest and repair.
4. Enjoy

0. Don't get your knowledge about gear in audio forums. Owners are intrinsically biased to their gear or some systematically create an hate relation with any thing they replaced in the past because of post-upgrade contrast.

 

[jeff1225]

Rega Osiris, new POS. Broken out of the box. Rega said it was within spec. For a garbage piece of gear.
CJ Premier 140. Use, broken. Got repaired and upgraded. Worked great after that.
Mcintosh Preamp. Forget the model. C40 or something. Used Broken. Told its within spec and to pound sand. Later met someone who knew the issue and said most tech weren't smart enough to fix it.
Audion Black Shadow 845. Used. Don't get me started. POS. Still has issues.
Rogue Audio amp. Used. Worked fine.
Dartzeel NHB 108. Use. Worked fine. When I sold it it went to Herv and he did about $750 in repairs. It needed some TLC but was not failing, Yet.
Found Music Blade amp. New. No mechanical issues. Still trying to get it to blend with my system.

Anyhow, my experience is used is a total crap shoot. I don't buy used anymore. Not unless I can see the piece. Or I know the seller. I don't know. Maybe I would. but its a risk. It is what it is. Old and used. Then again, I have friends that have been burned by a dealer buying new and there are issues that take months to fix. They are out $tens of thousands and have no equipment to play till the plant decides to fix their problems.

None of these items fit within my guidelines.

 

[jeff1225]

All of that is true. The designer of the original AS 1000 is unknown and perhaps no longer living. And no one knows how many of those were built and still out there, but I saw one sell in front of my eyes in a two minute negotiation.

I agree with you about the break point and that depends a lot on whether or not a product is built to last for a long time and can be easily repaired. Look at some of the vintage speakers that continue to maintain high prices and extreme value to what is currently available new. Your turntable is a good example and so is the big micro Seiki.

I’m not sure I would actually describe my turntable as a vanity piece. There are examples of those where a prototype is built, but nothing more and there are no buyers. The entire production run of my turntable was sold out of demand before the first one was actually manufactured. It was built because people wanted it. It’s more about the buyer than the designer. I agree with you that it is a luxury as is a lot of the stuff in this hobby. Congratulations on your new turntable. Someone local here just bought one, but I have not yet visited to hear it.

I would not describe your turntable as a “vanity” piece. Vanity pieces are usually covered with bling, over sized, and named after the manufacturer. They tend to not hold resale.

I think the AS2000 is like a Shelby Cobra. An industry expert took an existing successful design, improved upon it in various ways, and sold them in a limited quantity. I suspect it will hold its value.

Back to Vandersteen, his original very successful concept (models 1 and 2) were made to market the best quality sounding products for the lowest price. This is why they do not have a veneered cabinet design.

 

[PeterA]

Here’s the way:

1. Have a good local repair person.
2. Buy classic brands where there is a community of people trading these items and making replacement parts and upgrades.
3. Buy low so you have money to invest and repair.
4. Enjoy

I would add one item to your excellent list: buy from a trustworthy dealer who stands by what he sells.

Another obvious point is that audio is an hobby and meant to be enjoyed. It is not an investment vehicle.

 

[microstrip]

I would add one item to your excellent list: buy from a trustworthy dealer who stands by what he sells.

Audio brokers and dealers selling used gear usually sell it with a very limited time warranty - they do not become responsible for service after that period. Most of the time, only when dealers sell used equipment from their regular brands they assume such service.

If we want very good deals on used gear - I think it is the objective of buying used there is always some risk. Don't expect great deals from someone who stands by what he sells. He needs to make profit. The good deals mostly come from private sales, that are usually sold as is, no warranty at all.

Another obvious point is that audio is an hobby and meant to be enjoyed. It is not an investment vehicle.

Surely. But some people enjoy making a good deal for both reasons - the financial aspect and the hobby. BTW, IMO buying used means loosing less when you change, not profiting.

 

[microstrip]

Here’s the way:

1. Have a good local repair person.
2. Buy classic brands where there is a community of people trading these items and making replacement parts and upgrades.
3. Buy low so you have money to invest and repair.
4. Enjoy

3.1 If it is too good to be true, it is not true!