Magico Ultimate 3

[edorr]

digital volume control in Conbrio is maximum -36dB / +12dB in 64bit math precision to output 24bits signal with144dB theoretical SNR, so no theoretical loss of resolution. Gain structure of entire system is designed so that we need minimum attenuation, definitely less than "50-60dB" as it would be stupid to build such a high resolution and super sensitive system and then attenuate the crap out of the signal. Also, again, "volume control" in Conbrio doesn't automatically imply digital volume control, it can also be configured to control the volume of either a custom-made pre-amp/volume controller or to interface to other devices (mechanically or electronically) which control the volume. The main point is that the volume control is entirely integrated into the iPad and hard-button remote control of Conbrio and that it is synchronized amongst all drivers and calibrated within 0.1dB to maintain perfect linearity at all volume levels, regardless if done electronically or mechanically.

It was my understanding the conbrio is a processor with digital outs into a stack of dacs. If so, any volume control done in the conbrio would have to be digital. If not, the conbrio would need to have build in D/A converters, and attenuate after the D/A conversion.

If the conbrio can do -36db attenuation in the digital domain, your downstream analog components ("gain structure") would still need to "attenuate the crap out of the signal" to play at normal listening levels with a 110db sensitive system. If there is no preamp, the poweramps would have to have negative gain. If there is a preamp, the preamp would need to do the attenuation.

 

[stereo]

It was my understanding the conbrio is a processor with digital outs into a stack of dacs. If so, any volume control done in the conbrio would have to be digital. If not, the conbrio would need to have build in D/A converters, and attenuate after the D/A conversion.

If the conbrio can do -36db attenuation in the digital domain, your downstream analog components ("gain structure") would still need to "attenuate the crap out of the signal" to play at normal listening levels with a 110db sensitive system. If there is no preamp, the poweramps would have to have negative gain. If there is a preamp, the preamp would need to do the attenuation.

First, let me clarify again that most probably the Conbrio will control volume not in the digital domain, but controlling remotely the passive pre(s) we will have after the DAC. Can be either mechanical (turn several knobs) or electrical (drive ICs, which control a series of LDR): see the Conbrio as a smart, 0.1dB precise volume control (which can define different volume curves to adapt to different drivers sensitivity and gains of the 5 analog chains)
Now, in the hypothesis we do the volume control in the digital domain: if we use amps that have low gain (10-14dB) then downstream attenuation is a lot less of an issue (all that we really need is to drive current, not voltage). The whole point of ?36/+12 is that we set the typical listening level where we like it using analog gain structuring and then you can go higher (+12, basically 3-4 times as loud) or much much lower ?36 = about 12 times softer (assuming ~3dB per perceived "doubling" of volume). Of course, it will also depends on the voltage output of the DACs...

 

[edorr]

First, let me clarify again that most probably the Conbrio will control volume not in the digital domain, but controlling remotely the passive pre(s) we will have after the DAC. Can be either mechanical (turn several knobs) or electrical (drive ICs, which control a series of LDR).
Now, in the hypothesis we do the volume control in the digital domain: if we use amps that have low gain (10-14dB) then downstream attenuation is a lot less of an issue (all that we really need is to drive current, not voltage). The whole point of ?36/+12 is that we set the typical listening level where we like it using analog gain structuring and then you can go higher (+12, basically 3-4 times as loud) or much much lower ?36 = about 12 times softer (assuming ~3dB per perceived "doubling" of volume). Of course, it will also depends on the voltage output of the DACs...

This would be an analog/digital hybrid volume control. You would use a passive attenuator to trim down the output voltage of the DAC, and digital volume control for tuning output level to desired listening level. Sounds like a good approach in a highly sensitive system like the one you are building. To avoid additional analog cabling (signal degradation) and additional boxes (passive preamp in a box), in this scenario the analog attenuation would preferably be build into the DACs - the MSBs would do this.

 

[stereo]

This would be an analog/digital hybrid volume control. You would use a passive attenuator to trim down the output voltage of the DAC, and digital volume control for tuning output level to desired listening level. Sounds like a good approach in a highly sensitive system like the one you are building. To avoid additional analog cabling (signal degradation) and additional boxes (passive preamp in a box), in this scenario the analog attenuation would preferably be build into the DACs - the MSBs would do this.

Yes, you summarized it better than me!

 

[LL21]

It is an option I am considering. Question is how silent it is: official specs are always BS, you need to connect one on a horn driver to know... And problem is how much heat they dissipate. Worth a try!

I have heard some Shindo equipment...they have a reputation for a surprisingly low noise floor...a signal to noise ratio of 119db or something? It has a sound, and your pursuit seems to be to avoid that. But nevertheless, there certainly are a lot of people who buy Shindo and never look again...and having heard it in my room, I can see why.

 

[Elberoth]

I would second the MSB advice - superb sonics, analog, passive attenuation onboard, easy integration via RS-232 and various clocking options (internal femto clock; optional clock inputs and outputs).

No other top-end DAC I'm aware of offers this kind of flexibility.

Other option would be 5 dCS Scarlatti DACs (can be bought cheap S/h now as many owners upgrade to Vivaldi now) fed from a single, high quality clock - fine digital attenuation, RS-232 control, clock I/Os.

 

[edorr]

I would second the MSB advice - superb sonics, analog, passive attenuation onboard, easy integration via RS-232 and various clocking options (internal femto clock; optional clock inputs and outputs).

No other top-end DAC I'm aware of offers this kind of flexibility.

Other option would be 5 dCS Scarlatti DACs (can be bought cheap S/h now as many owners upgrade to Vivaldi now) fed from a single, high quality clock - fine digital attenuation, RS-232 control, clock I/Os.

The only issue with the dCS route is that no matter how you add and subtract the numbers you will need 50-60dB of total end-to-end attenuation which will be done entirely in the digital domain with a dCS (you probably need to turn the dCS down to -30/40dB and control the processor in the -30/20 range. Not sure this 2 step digital attenuation approach will result in loss of resolution.

 

[iampaddy]

Behold electronics

BEHOLD ELECTRONICS - used in a previous Ultimate Setup - Wouldnt this be the perfect Pre=Amp Solution......

http://www.stereotimes.com/jimlangham.shtml

The Behold BPA-768 stereo amplifiers and the super-sophisticated 12-channel APU-768 preamp replete with its own Digital to Analogue converters (DACs), room-correction and an active 10-channel digital crossover with manual phase and time alignment capabilities. All these features dear reader are nestled inside a single chassis. More impressive is each Behold amplifier houses eight DACs per-channel: All eight DACs are designed to cascade and thus upsample to 768-bit resolution.

http://www.behold.eu/page.php?en321000

http://dagogo.com/behold-apu768-preamplifier-and-bpa768-amplifier-review

 

[Elberoth]

The only issue with the dCS route is that no matter how you add and subtract the numbers you will need 50-60dB of total end-to-end attenuation which will be done entirely in the digital domain with a dCS (you probably need to turn the dCS down to -30/40dB and control the processor in the -30/20 range. Not sure this 2 step digital attenuation approach will result in loss of resolution.

Yes, that will definately be an issue, at least with high gain amps. That beeing said, to make the digital attenuation usable with 110dB efficient speakers, you would need an amp with no gain at all - which would most likely mean custom design.

One can also try an L-pad on a DAC output - that would work as a passive preamp with constant attenuation. You can try to attenuate the signal by 40dB, and then use the digital attenuation for the last 20dB. Not ideal, but still doable. Which is really why the MSB would be my #1 choice - already has a HQ passive preamp build in.

 

[microstrip]

It is an option I am considering. Question is how silent it is: official specs are always BS, you need to connect one on a horn driver to know... And problem is how much heat they dissipate. Worth a try!

Avantgarde Acoustics also manufactures an amplifier optimized for their very high-efficiency horns. I listened several times to their horn speakers, but was never an horn enthusiast. However the first time I listened to them using their own amplifier I was stupefied - they did not sound like an horn, it sounded dynamic and fluid - like music. I still regret not having had the time to re-listen to such combo.

 

[KeithR]

It is an option I am considering. Question is how silent it is: official specs are always BS, you need to connect one on a horn driver to know... And problem is how much heat they dissipate. Worth a try!

They run warm, not hot imo- ive had them in my room.

Dead silent on 101db efficient Zus. Nelson uses horns fyi.

 

[caesar]

Ahhh!! The economics of High End Audio ...

Economics of all industries, actually. Beer at a bar: buy a $2 bottle of PBR or a $10 bottle of some exotic mocro brew. Women's lingerie: buy a bra at walmart for a few bucks or get a $300 bra at La Perla. Furniture: gt a great sofa at ikea for several hundred bucks, or spend $20K on a GORGEOUS sofa at Minotti. .... this holds for virtually any industry.

Just life in the modern world. How boring would it be to go to the days of the Model T?

 

[caesar]

Killjoy eh? I've been called worse..

But just for the helluva it here's the way I think. We are looking at the magicos or 5 and 2/3's of these guys:

View attachment 10963

I look at M6's as a currency...sort of as they do in Dubai..

When you are wandering lost in the desert, what do you value more - a 3 karat diamond or a glass of water? Price has very littlr to do with intrinsic materials but is about value. Just basic economics. And is that m6 really that much better than a 3 series, say an M3? My dealer, a purist, told me that the 6 series is fast but has no soul, and that BMW just has it for in the line up for guys who have $$$$$$$ and want to show off. M3, and even basic 3 series models, are there for people who truly love cars. But who am I to judge? Let the market be the judge.

Obviously, Stereo values the Magico sound and Wolf can deliver the product. God bless them for pushing the limits!

 

[stereo]

When you are wandering lost in the desert, what do you value more - a 3 karat diamond or a glass of water? Price has very littlr to do with intrinsic materials but is about value. Just basic economics. And is that m6 really that much better than a 3 series, say an M3? My dealer, a purist, told me that the 6 series is fast but has no soul, and that BMW just has it for in the line up for guys who have $$$$$$$ and want to show off. M3, and even basic 3 series models, are there for people who truly love cars. But who am I to judge? Let the market be the judge.

Obviously, Stereo values the Magico sound and Wolf can deliver the product. God bless them for pushing the limits!

I am with you... would take a BMW M3 over a M6 anytime. M6 is too heavy

 

[stereo]

new view of the Ultimate:

To put everything in perspective, the 15" driver at the bottom looks so small!

 

[JackD201]

So how's the countdown goin' S? Are you getting any sleep?

 

[stereo]

So how's the countdown goin' S? Are you getting any sleep?

given it is 4am here in tokyo, not much sleep....
Probably end of year, not in a rush to see the Ultimate arrive. I am happy with my current set up, it is not like if I feel frustrated not being able to listen to good music!

 

[Steve Williams]

I happened to find this photo of me back in the days I had long hair and was fat

Taken by Alon himself when I visited his factory

 

[andromedaaudio]

Cool visit ,and how did they sound ?

 

[FrantzM]

Economics of all industries, actually. Beer at a bar: buy a $2 bottle of PBR or a $10 bottle of some exotic mocro brew. Women's lingerie: buy a bra at walmart for a few bucks or get a $300 bra at La Perla. Furniture: gt a great sofa at ikea for several hundred bucks, or spend $20K on a GORGEOUS sofa at Minotti. .... this holds for virtually any industry.

Just life in the modern world. How boring would it be to go to the days of the Model T?

If we go for entirely subjective endeavors... I am all for it ... if the pursuit can be defined in objective terms ... No. Audio reproduction has an objective , clearly stated goal , difficult to achieve for sure but objective it is. High End Audio is supposed to be the highest expression of this Art/Science. If the goal is not attained and the point is all about luxury ...