Magico Ultimate 3

[microstrip]

If we go for entirely subjective endeavors... I am all for it ... if the pursuit can be defined in objective terms ... No. Audio reproduction has an objective , clearly stated goal , difficult to achieve for sure but objective it is. High End Audio is supposed to be the highest expression of this Art/Science. If the goal is not attained and the point is all about luxury ...

The main problem is that most of the time luxury is mixed with quality. Quality comes at a price, people who have the money to buy this quality most of the time also expect luxury. In order to sell manufacturers must comply with marketing requirements. Should we expect that WBF will educate a significant number of audio consumers, changing this trend?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Stereo, how do you think the uprated 15" sub drivers in your Ultimates will stack up against the new Q15/18 subs from Magico?
Is there any possibility if the QSubs really are the business that you could integrate 1 or 2 (or 4!) with your Ultimates? I mean, at $600k for the main spkrs, there's a perverse VFM thing going on adding mega low end capability for only 10-20% extra cost.

 

[stereo]

Stereo, how do you think the uprated 15" sub drivers in your Ultimates will stack up against the new Q15/18 subs from Magico?
Is there any possibility if the QSubs really are the business that you could integrate 1 or 2 (or 4!) with your Ultimates? I mean, at $600k for the main spkrs, there's a perverse VFM thing going on adding mega low end capability for only 10-20% extra cost.

80% of what I listen to is Jazz, the rest is ancient music, so I don't need really ultra low, high SPL bass. Even if the Qsub is a fantastic product, unlikely I will integrate subs in a stereo system: right now my 2 fathom are going to be used only for HT. The Ultimate will go down to around 16Hz flat, don't need more than that... Keep in mind that in an extensively treated room, there is much less bass suck up, so you need also less sub power.
Also don't forget I will be running a 5 way active system, adding one more way on the top is an additional complexity I don't want to deal with right now.
The 15" subs in the Ultimate go higher in frequency than the Qsub. The XO frequency is going to be around 120Hz if I remember well.
If one day I will replace the fathom with the Qsub, it is going to be for the HT, not the stereo system.

 

[FrantzM]

80% of what I listen to is Jazz, the rest is ancient music, so I don't need really ultra low, high SPL bass. Even if the Qsub is a fantastic product, unlikely I will integrate subs in a stereo system: right now my 2 fathom are going to be used only for HT. The Ultimate will go down to around 16Hz flat, don't need more than that... Keep in mind that in an extensively treated room, there is much less bass suck up, so you need also less sub power.
Also don't forget I will be running a 5 way active system, adding one more way on the top is an additional complexity I don't want to deal with right now.
The 15" subs in the Ultimate go higher in frequency than the Q-sub. The XO frequency is going to be around 120Hz if I remember well.
If one day I will replace the fathom with the Q-sub, it is going to be for the HT, not the stereo system.

I still believe that the Ultimate 3 mated with subs would be something rather unique. Let me explain. Horns are usually extraordinary in the dynamics department. Let's give Magico the credit it deserves, their drivers are low distortion , high performance affairs, any Magico speakers. Those drivers have unusually high SPL capabilities linearity and low distortion .. it is likely ( ???) that the drivers used in the horns would share those characteristics ( ) ... Plus they are horn loaded thus even higher dynamics capabilities .. So from below, say 150 Hz to where the bats converse, you have extraordinary, some would say extravagant dynamics capability. Then you hand the lows to a lone 15 incher ... I don't care how good the 15 incher is it cannot , physically match the dynamic capabilities of the rest ... OK! Let me nice IMO.

Couple this with subs, good linear subs to bring the SPL capability to the level of the horns, that means serious capable subs ... not puny subs.. I would imagine a couple of infinite baffle subs with 8 drivers each side (! ) such as the TC Sound LMS 400 and a dozen of kilowatts and we would be talking ultimate, matching or surpassing the Genesis Dragon . Oh and just for shake, literally, I would add one rotary sub.. That would be in my view really ultimate in my dream ...

 

[LL21]

I still believe that the Ultimate 3 mated with subs would be something rather unique. Let me explain. Horns are usually extraordinary in the dynamics department. Let's give Magico the credit it deserves, their drivers are low distortion , high performance affairs, any Magico speakers. Those drivers have unusually high SPL capabilities linearity and low distortion .. it is likely ( ???) that the drivers used in the horns would share those characteristics ( ) ... Plus they are horn loaded thus even higher dynamics capabilities .. So from below, say 150 Hz to where the bats converse, you have extraordinary, some would say extravagant dynamics capability. Then you hand the lows to a lone 15 incher ... I don't care how good the 15 incher is it cannot , physically match the dynamic capabilities of the rest ... OK! Let me nice IMO.

Couple this with subs, good linear subs to bring the SPL capability to the level of the horns, that means serious capable subs ... not puny subs.. I would imagine a couple of infinite baffle subs with 8 drivers each side (! ) such as the TC Sound LMS 400 and a dozen of kilowatts and we would be talking ultimate, matching or surpassing the Genesis Dragon . Oh and just for shake, literally, I would add one rotary sub.. That would be in my view really ultimate in my dream ...

For my style of music...+1! From violin sonatas to large-scale orchestral masses/choral/soundtracks to jazz ensembles to rock...to hip hop, rap & deep house

 

[stereo]

guys, you are tempting me
I have to say that my experience with Fathom subs has not convinced me so far, but I may as well change my mind with an extreme sub design like the two new Magico Qsub. Will test two Qsub15 or Qsub18 with my Ultimate in magico showroom in Hayward, CA, before shipping the Ultimate and taking the decision.

 

[LL21]

guys, you are tempting me
I have to say that my experience with Fathom subs has not convinced me so far, but I may as well change my mind with an extreme sub design like the two new Magico Qsub. Will test two Qsub15 or Qsub18 with my Ultimate in magico showroom in Hayward, CA, before shipping the Ultimate and taking the decision.

woo hoooo! Do let us know what you think. I am sure that your choice of music will make a difference. On my end, for example, after listening to Jay Z last nite, I realize now there is a chance the Ultra 5s under my CJ GAT (as wonderful as they are)...might be shaving off a bit of weight from upper to mid bass. (nothing to do with sub...just an observation about me and bass). I found the Ultra 5s shaved off quite a bit thru lower treble...and that was unacceptable to me...and then I put HRS nimbus/couplers on top of the Ultra 5s and then the CJ GAT preamp...bingo, all the piano keyboard weight came back...no longer an electronic keyboard, but a proper piano keyboard. But that was with Glenn Gould...with Jay Z...its another matter. upper bass may still be 'shaved' a bit.

...but it is subtle difference I am still working out...and its because of my particular enjoyment of bass and of course my music selection.

Of course, the only other point worth noting I suppose is..."in for a penny, in for a pound". If you are going to attack the world of high end with an all out assault system like the Ultimates...I suppose for those few times when you want the kettle drum on orchestral to be IN your lap (ha!)...it would loads of fun to have effortless, clean bass so you never have to even think about it when it comes. I know...you listen to mainly acoustic jazz...but still, there might be a few tracks where 'that 3% is all the difference'.

Hey, you can see we're just a bunch of audiophiles who love the idea of your system and are just enjoying egging you on to keep climbing!!!

 

[Elberoth]

I still believe that the Ultimate 3 mated with subs would be something rather unique. Let me explain. Horns are usually extraordinary in the dynamics department. Let's give Magico the credit it deserves, their drivers are low distortion , high performance affairs, any Magico speakers. Those drivers have unusually high SPL capabilities linearity and low distortion .. it is likely ( ???) that the drivers used in the horns would share those characteristics ( ) ... Plus they are horn loaded thus even higher dynamics capabilities .. So from below, say 150 Hz to where the bats converse, you have extraordinary, some would say extravagant dynamics capability. Then you hand the lows to a lone 15 incher ... I don't care how good the 15 incher is it cannot , physically match the dynamic capabilities of the rest ... OK! Let me nice IMO.

The Ultimate ALREADY is such a speaker.

 

[LL21]

The Ultimate ALREADY is such a speaker.

True...then again, there is ALWAYS bigger, badder, better. Not every change is better, but there is always better out there eventually. The question is whether a series of QSubs would in fact make the Ulimates better...in a super large room, I imagine it could.

 

[FrantzM]

The Ultimate ALREADY is such a speaker.

Not in the bass . Physics:displacement of a lone woofer can't match that of multiple woofers in several uber speakers. To me that is the weak point of the design. Compe this with the woofer/sub of another horn speaker of distinction the Acapella Sphaedron or the multiple bass horns of avantguarde ...
I know I am speculating but down low, it is a fact: there is no substitute for displacement. One single woofer has its limits. Facts not opinion.

 

[FrantzM]

LL21

You seem to be as eclectic as I am. From rap to Classical! Not a fan of Jay Z but acknowledge he's good. Back to the ultimate

 

[stereo]

Not in the bass . Physics:displacement of a lone woofer can't match that of multiple woofers in several uber speakers. To me that is the weak point of the design. Compe this with the woofer/sub of another horn speaker of distinction the Acapella Sphaedron or the multiple bass horns of avantguarde ...
I know I am speculating but down low, it is a fact: there is no substitute for displacement. One single woofer has its limits. Facts not opinion.

Theoretically yes. But it really depends on room size, and way room is treated: if you need to do 25dB of EQ because you have big room modes, for sure you better have a lot of subwoofers. My room response is flat, without any EQ, that makes a huge difference on displacement needed.
And it depends a lot on the quality of the driver. The sub driver in the Ultimate is a custom driver, designed by magico to optimize integration with the bass horn. Not easy to find something which will sound better.

 

[FrantzM]

Theoretically yes. But it really depends on room size, and way room is treated: if you need to do 25dB of EQ because you have big room modes, for sure you better have a lot of subwoofers. My room response is flat, without any EQ, that makes a huge difference on displacement needed.
And it depends a lot on the quality of the driver. The sub driver in the Ultimate is a custom driver, designed by magico to optimize integration with the bass horn. Not easy to find something which will sound better.

Stereo

I sincerely don't want to spoil your wait. I would however suggest to think hard about a pair of Q-subs or better 4 Sub-15. Game over for a while! If you have to go Magico. I would have gone differently if I haven't made it abundantly clear yet

I make no excuses for my search for clean bass and for me it is displacement. Integration within the system you envision while not easy is doable. I don't personally go and it can be proven why,for the "slow bass" and speed falsities ... If you are going for multiple crossovers as you said you would, you could have a lesser crossover dedicated to bass. In your optimally treated room, the results would be marvelous.

When a system is able to reproduce low bass accurately even chamber music reproduction becomes more realistic. It is a false idea that small ensemble music do not require low bass, not true in my experience: A wealth of information about the room seems to reside down low. . The information about the size or volume of the ordinal recording space(simulated or reel) resides in the bass.

 

[stereo]

IStereo

I sincerely don't want to spoil your wait. I would however suggest to think hard about a pair of Q-subs or better 4 Sub-15. Game over for a while! If you have to go Magico. I would have gone differently if I haven't made it abundantly clear yet

I make no excuses for my search for clean bass and for me it is displacement and integration within the system you envision while not easy is doable. I don;t personally go and it can proven for the "slow bass" and speed falsities ... If you are going for multiple crossovers as you said you would, you could have a lesser crossover dedicated to bass. In your optimally treated room, the results would be marvelous. It doe

When a system is able to reproduce low bass accurately even chamber music reproduction becomes more realistic. It is a false idea that small ensemble music do not require low bass, not true in my experience: A wealth of information about the room seems to reside down low. . The information about the size or volume of the ordinal recording space(simulated or reel) resides in the bass.

My room is too small for me to have 4 Qsub. Even two may be a problem: Lack of physical space! Additionally, the room is on a roof top, and the full floor is floating (box in box): I cannot add one more ton of weight on the floor without structural calculation.
Even with two F113 right now I don't have a problem of bass quantity (more a problem of quality for a use in stereo): I measured them flat down to 20Hz, and they probably go lower (I started my measurement window at 20Hz). The 15" in the Ultimate will have 33% more membrane surface, and they will go down to around 16Hz flat, with lower distortion than any other driver used in commercial subs, so bass extension is not a problem - and I don't need 130dB SPL since I don't listen to techno or rap or etc.
So yes, I will give it a try, but with a skeptical eye! more is not always better

PS: Mike L experience with the MM7 vs. MM3 may be different as his room is significantly larger than mine. MM3 and MM7 bass drivers use cheap paper woofers, so for sure (as with all paper woofers) distortion becomes very fast a problem as SPL goes up (we are not talking 1 or 2%, more 10 or 30%!), that's why multiplying the number of drivers in a bass column which covers a narrower frequency range than in case of MM3 helps a lot, I buy the logic in his case.

 

[stereo]

Not in the bass . Physics:displacement of a lone woofer can't match that of multiple woofers in several uber speakers. To me that is the weak point of the design. Compe this with the woofer/sub of another horn speaker of distinction the Acapella Sphaedron or the multiple bass horns of avantguarde ...
I know I am speculating but down low, it is a fact: there is no substitute for displacement. One single woofer has its limits. Facts not opinion.

Not an absolute rule. Quality matters as much quantity. For the cost of the bass driver used in Ultimate, Magico could source >5-7 OEM paper cone 15" drivers... but get higher distortion even with the lower displacement. And yes, additional subs may help in a VERY large room.

 

[mauidan]

Not in the bass . Physics:displacement of a lone woofer can't match that of multiple woofers in several uber speakers. To me that is the weak point of the design. Compe this with the woofer/sub of another horn speaker of distinction the Acapella Sphaedron or the multiple bass horns of avantguarde ...
I know I am speculating but down low, it is a fact: there is no substitute for displacement. One single woofer has its limits. Facts not opinion.

Since you obviously haven't heard the Ultimate 3s, what subs do you use in your system and how many?

 

[FrantzM]

Since you obviously haven't heard the Ultimate 3s, what subs do you use in your system and how many?

Answer: Zero sub. presently enjoying the far from ultimate Kef LS 50 and in my office the Kef X-300. Looking forward to acquire better speakers, won't be Ultimate but may well be in the family, once my listening convince me that some other speakers are as pleasing to my ears or perceived to be as high performance as Magico: Presently the Qs are leading in my evaluation, it could change...

Never heard the Ultimate 3 but will. Additionally, have used 3 subs in a Geddes configuration with Magnepan. Also what is "obvious" about my listening experience with the Ultiamte 3 by the way? Have you?

Also what does your post has anything to do with the discussion at hand? It seem to follow the usual, tired and non-constructive: "If you haven't heard it you can't post about in its thread" mentality. The most interesting part is that if you were to adhere to this rule you shouldn't post in this thread either nor would most of the participants ...

Back to the Ultimate 3,
Stereo, I see your points, still , in my view nothing replace headroom. The more the better. Since you are going to the Ultimate, it might as well be the same in the bass in my view. Wildly speculating of course. Stacking subs don;t take much floor space and with adequate signal massaging can be tucked in the corners ... Food for thought,

 

[mauidan]

Answer: Zero sub. presently enjoying the far from ultimate Kef LS 50 and in my office the Kef X-300. Looking forward to acquire better speakers, won't be Ultimate but may well be in the family, once my listening convince me that some other speakers are as pleasing to my ears or perceived to be as high performance as Magico: Presently the Qs are leading in my evaluation, it could change...

Never heard the Ultimate 3 but will. Additionally, have used 3 subs in a Geddes configuration with Magnepan. Also what is "obvious" about my listening experience with the Ultiamte 3 by the way? Have you?

Also what does your post has anything to do with the discussion at hand? It seem to follow the usual, tired and non-constructive: "If you haven't heard it you can't post about in its thread" mentality. The most interesting part is that if you were to adhere to this rule you shouldn't post in this thread either nor would most of the participants ...

Back to the Ultimate 3,
Stereo, I see your points, still , in my view nothing replace headroom. The more the better. Since you are going to the Ultimate, it might as well be the same in the bass in my view. Wildly speculating of course. Stacking subs don;t take much floor space and with adequate signal massaging can be tucked in the corners ... Food for thought,

Unlike you FrantzM, I'm not trying to give advise to someone on speakers I've never heard and will never own.

I just enjoy reading about Stereo's "Ultimate Adventure," and would never "wildly speculate" on ways to improve his system.

 

[FrantzM]

Unlike you FrantzM, I'm not trying to give advise to someone on speakers I've never heard and will never own.

I just enjoy reading about Stereo's "Ultimate Adventure," and would never "wildly speculate" on ways to improve his system.

Advise? You call a discussion between Audiophiles, advise? I may note in passing that the OP seems to be interested in the discussion, if you aren't ... There are other threads that could be of interest ...

 

[mauidan]

Advise? You call a discussion between Audiophiles, advise? I may note in passing that the OP seems to be interested in the discussion, if you aren't ... There are other threads that could be of interest ...

LOL! Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for threads that don't include your advise/speculating.