Logical assumptions - Predetermined biases

[Shaffer]

To my ears, they have provided huge bang for the buck upgrades, in many cases comparable with speakers.

How is this possible? I mean, with transducers we see gross shifts in frequency response, alone.

 

[TJE]

How is this possible? I mean, with transducers we see gross shifts in frequency response, alone.

I agree. These conversations go too far into hypotheticals and generalizations, and reality gets left behind. Imagine if a dozen audiophiles were together in a room and comparing a DAC upgrade vs. a speaker upgrade. Then see who thinks the DAC is making a bigger difference.

 

[edorr]

I agree. These conversations go too far into hypotheticals and generalizations, and reality gets left behind.

Au contraire. I am entirely basing this comment on my personal experience.

Imagine if a dozen audiophiles were together in a room and comparing a DAC upgrade vs. a speaker upgrade. Then see who thinks the DAC is making a bigger difference.

Never made that claim. Obviously, changing speakers can transform a system. In my experience so can changing DACs. A superior DAC can retrieve more information and detail, but most importantly it can better recreate the ambiance / acoustical space of the original musical event.

 

[TJE]

Never made that claim.

True, I twisted your words. What I meant about hypotheticals and generalizations is statements like this:

"A DAC upgrade could transform this system"
"I wonder if your DAC upgrade would survive a blind test"
"I don't think you can prove anything with a blind test"
"I hear ___"
"I don't see how that's possible"
etc, this is the gist of many conversations.

If the people having this conversation were in the same room and talking about the same exact sound system, there should be more agreement about what does / does not transform the system. Otherwise they just talk about what everyone believes.

 

[edorr]

True, I twisted your words. What I meant about hypotheticals and generalizations is statements like this:

"A DAC upgrade could transform this system"
"I wonder if your DAC upgrade would survive a blind test"
"I don't think you can prove anything with a blind test"
"I hear ___"
"I don't see how that's possible"
etc, this is the gist of many conversations.

If the people having this conversation were in the same room and talking about the same exact sound system, there should be more agreement about what does / does not transform the system. Otherwise they just talk about what everyone believes.

I take credit for the first claim only, which is strictly empircally based. Even at that, I realize results are very system dependent and generalizations are tricky business.

Also keep in mind all is a function of the relative leap in quality of the components being compared and the relative quality of the component in the end to end chain. Case in point. In my experience, the LEAST transformative component in the chain is the poweramp. However, recently my main poweramp (Jungson JA-200) died and I temporarily moved my surround amp (Bel Canto S300) to my mains - huge difference. If I considered the Bel Cantos my baseline, a poweramp upgrade (costing 10x the Bel Cantos) would "transform" my system.

 

[Gregadd]

If I considered the Bel Cantos my baseline, a poweramp upgrade (costing 10x the Bel Cantos) would "transform" my system.

It just might.:b

 

[treitz3]

Everything affects everything within a system.

Can anyone give an example of a bias that isn't predetermined? I can't think of any at the moment.

Good question, Jack.

Tom

 

[Gregadd]

Who Ever Loved That Loved Not at First Sight?

It lies not in our power to love or hate,
For will in us is overruled by fate.
When two are stripped, long ere the course begin,
We wish that one should love, the other win;

And one especially do we affect
Of two gold ingots, like in each respect:
The reason no man knows; let it suffice
What we behold is censured by our eyes.
Where both deliberate, the love is slight:
Who ever loved, that loved not at first sight?
Christopher Marlowe

 

[Saturntube]

I think reviews are informative and indeed the reviewer has little option to give out a real opinion, like "don’t buy this ****!".
He would of course be out of line and if indeed the piece of gear does not sound good it might be a system incompatibility, unless it really is faulty in which case it should be returned to the manufacturer saying: I will make you a favor and not review your crappy equipment.

Now for an audiophile who is going to spend a nice amount of money on a piece of gear, first of all you should know what will work in your system: ie
If you have 86 db speakers a 45 amp giving out 2 watts will indeed sound bad, but if you have horns it might be glorious!

I think reviews should tell us in detail what a piece of equipment is comprised of, how it is built and what characteristics it has:
The buyer should take responsibility for his decisions.

What I hate is reviews with the following sort of lines:

- To get full potential of this gear, you should connect it with this very expensive cable!
So he is now selling the cable too?
- You would think small speakers cannot play an orchestra at real life levels, but his ones can!
Who are you trying to fool?

 

[treitz3]

So, offering free advice from the extensive knowledge of the manufacturer to better the performance of the gear one has just purchased is.....

There is also proprietary information.....

If one takes for granted that the basic fundamentals of a system has been taken care of.....

Never mind.

Tom

 

[microstrip]

(...)
I think reviews should tell us in detail what a piece of equipment is comprised of, how it is built and what characteristics it has:
The buyer should take responsibility for his decisions.

What I hate is reviews with the following sort of lines:

- To get full potential of this gear, you should connect it with this very expensive cable!
So he is now selling the cable too?
- You would think small speakers cannot play an orchestra at real life levels, but his ones can!
Who are you trying to fool?

I agree with your first request - I love to see the pictures of the open and dismembered pieces of equipment. Some French and German hifi magazines are great in this aspect.

Although the enforcement statement about cables you reproduce is ridiculous and abusive, except for a few well known exceptional cases, I demand to know what cables the reviewer has used and also the recordings he used.