Live vs. Reproduced?

[silviajulieta]

Dear fas42: Ok, now I have clear your test and if I decide to do it then I will report on it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

You are wise to protect your ears.

I disagree with your second statement. In my experience, low-distortion systems are MORE dangerous because they allow us to play louder than we would if it got all distorted and forced us to cut the volume. The sound level that causes damage varies with frequency, but the total power into your ears does the damage, distorted or not.

Dear DonH50: Agree, what determine ears damage is SPL, with or with out distortions.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.

 

[fas42]

So when you say the tweeter disappears you're saying is that you can't discern between the woofer and the tweeter when your head is right in front of the speaker? And that this blanket of the speaker's full range output moves with you when you move your head? When you move your head to the left the audio follows, you don't have the sensation of the music moving to the right? This is good, or at least if makes more sense. Not sure it has anything at all to do with soldering mains cables to outlets, but it makes more sense. Well, half of it makes sense...

Yes, that's correct. The tweeter becomes invisible in the sense that you can't pinpoint that the high frequency content is coming from the surface of the tweeter mechanism, unlike how it is with a normal system once you move your head closer to it. This is part of the reason I would say panel speakers have a natural advantage, the high frequency content is coming from a much larger area, helping the illusion.

Again, you specified the very reason it works, "a result of very clean electronics", my experience is that this is what it is all about. The downside is that the cleaner they are, the more perfectly clean they have to be, so as not to be harsh at all, and then the "magic" of this illusion happens. Vince knows all about it, and now Roger has just described it, he uses the term "morphing", which is as good a way as any to describe the impact to your senses. People use the word "bloom", which to me now translates to achieving non audible levels of distortion.

None of this is going to happen, however, when your ear is only inches from the tweeter. I have no idea what could do that, and that's what I thought I had heard you say in the past

When my little HT outfit is off tune, it has no trouble doing the normal imaging you describe, that was taken care of in the first round of tweaking; the speakers are invisible in the normal hifi sense. But that is only the first stage, so to speak. The second, much harder stage, is getting the electronics even cleaner, so clean that the sound morphs, as Roger puts it, into this next level of quality or realism. There are many qualities to this level of realism: tremendous bloom, ability to listen to atrocious recordings with complete pleasure, vast soundscapes, the room pressurises seemingly without limit. The key element I focused on is that with this sound quality the audible panorama is so convincing that the ear/brain refuses to acknowledge that the source of this sound is partly from the tweeter, even with your ear directly next to it.

So, as you say, the good sound comes from having a good system. What I further say, is that superb, completely realistic sound comes from a superb, completely debugged system. It's a matter of degree, not a change of approach or radical turnaround in what you do ...

Frank

 

[mep]

What I further say, is that superb, completely realistic sound comes from a superb, completely debugged system. Frank

So your Phillips home theater in a box system is a superb, completely dubugged system? I have never once heard you report anything you have done to modify your power supply so that the improvements could be seen on a decent scope when looking at both AC and DC waveforms.

Soldering your power cable directly to your wall socket doesn't improve your power supply. Ferrite beads might reduce RFI from getting into your power supply. But if you really want to "improve" your power supply, you would actually have to do something to the circuit to modify it. And by that I mean you would have to add stages of voltage regulation and possibly increase power supply capacitance and maybe add a choke. I don't see where you have electrically done anything to change the performance of your power supply.

I'm confident that your idea of "superb, completely realistic sound" is different than most people (if not all) on this forum.

 

[fas42]

So your Phillips home theater in a box system is a superb, completely dubugged system? I have never once heard you report anything you have done to modify your power supply so that the improvements could be seen on a decent scope when looking at both AC and DC waveforms.

Soldering your power cable directly to your wall socket doesn't improve your power supply. Ferrite beads might reduce RFI from getting into your power supply. But if you really want to "improve" your power supply, you would actually have to do something to the circuit to modify it. And by that I mean you would have to add stages of voltage regulation and possibly increase power supply capacitance and maybe add a choke. I don't see where you have electrically done anything to change the performance of your power supply.

I'm confident that your idea of "superb, completely realistic sound" is different than most people (if not all) on this forum.

Mark, I'm sure you've read post http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3000-Live-vs.-Reproduced&p=45821&viewfull=1#post45821, which was a direct response to a very similar query to this one, from you. The trouble is, it would be quite hard to pick up the impact of the changes I've made on a normal scope, it's not about the normal sagging of voltage and ripple reduction that you normally worry about. Some very significant changes were made in key areas of the power supply functioning, these were key to getting a lot of the results, a lot of what I do is achieved through understanding derived from very precise modelling in Spice programs. Some of what I have done I would put in the category of IP, so I am not going to hand it over for nix. My early experiments with the Perreaux were done using the normal tweaker's way, loads of low ESR caps hooked in everywhere; a repair technician would have a heart attack if he looked inside!!

But you don't have to go down my road. Vince and Roger have achieved excellent results using their ways ...

As regards the Philips being superb, it's sort of OK when not on song, and it's hard work completely debugging it. Getting closer all the time, though ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

I would just add that some of my recent efforts were playing around with the Felicia power conditioner ideas, this was very helpful at the time, and may be of benefit to others. I am not using such methods at the moment though ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

OK, I'm going to try this one more time, and make sure I really do understand what you're saying...

Yes, that's correct. The tweeter becomes invisible in the sense that you can't pinpoint that the high frequency content is coming from the surface of the tweeter mechanism,

You put your ear just a couple of inches from the "super tweeter" in one of those little Phillips speakers, and you hear the full, balanced output of the speaker, without any emphasis upon the tweeter that is right in front of your ear drum? You get perfectly coherent driver integration with your ear just a couple of inches from the tweeter? And you get this because you have hard wired connections and made un-named improvements in the power supply?

Tim

 

[fas42]

OK, I'm going to try this one more time, and make sure I really do understand what you're saying...



You put your ear just a couple of inches from the "super tweeter" in one of those little Phillips speakers, and you hear the full, balanced output of the speaker, without any emphasis upon the tweeter that is right in front of your ear drum? You get perfectly coherent driver integration with your ear just a couple of inches from the tweeter? And you get this because you have hard wired connections and made un-named improvements in the power supply?

Tim

Correct about the hearing aspect. In fact, if I were to close my eyes and my wife moved my head around in this state (no jokes, please!) up and down, left and right enough times so I had lost my sense of position I would not be able to point to where the speaker was.

And why this occurs is a lot more than the hard wiring and power supply, although the latter mod's are key. We are coming down to subtleties of exactly where a cable within the enclosure runs, and exactly how the speaker wires are routed within the room. A lot had to be done, and perhaps still has to be, to eliminate interference from other electrical sources -- a cell phone on or off at one stage made a big difference, and still does to some degree.

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

Mark, I'm sure you've read post http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3000-Live-vs.-Reproduced&p=45821&viewfull=1#post45821, which was a direct response to a very similar query to this one, from you. The trouble is, it would be quite hard to pick up the impact of the changes I've made on a normal scope, it's not about the normal sagging of voltage and ripple reduction that you normally worry about. Some very significant changes were made in key areas of the power supply functioning, these were key to getting a lot of the results, a lot of what I do is achieved through understanding derived from very precise modelling in Spice programs. Some of what I have done I would put in the category of IP, so I am not going to hand it over for nix. My early experiments with the Perreaux were done using the normal tweaker's way, loads of low ESR caps hooked in everywhere; a repair technician would have a heart attack if he looked inside!!

But you don't have to go down my road. Vince and Roger have achieved excellent results using their ways ...

As regards the Philips being superb, it's sort of OK when not on song, and it's hard work completely debugging it. Getting closer all the time, though ...

Frank

Frank, I must say that your thinking on your system and how it relates to the sound of a 'live' orchestra still makes no sense to me whatsoever.
If you were to listen to a live kettle drum or a live trombone for example, I cannot believe that you could think that your little system can come even close to being able to reproduce those sounds in your listening environment; never-mind that any experienced listener would be fooled into thinking they are hearing the real thing!

The other point that seems to stick out like a sore thumb, is that you have supposedly managed to tweek your little Philips HT system so that it now breaks the laws of physics!
Assuming that this is true, shouldn't you be getting a patent for these ideas and cashing in...just a thought

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Correct about the hearing aspect. In fact, if I were to close my eyes and my wife moved my head around in this state (no jokes, please!) up and down, left and right enough times so I had lost my sense of position I would not be able to point to where the speaker was.

Just point to your ear, Frank, it's right there. Well, I thought perhaps I didn't understand you, but I was wrong. I was getting exactly what you were saying -- you're getting perfectly coherent driver integration with your ear right in front of one of the drivers.

And why this occurs is a lot more than the hard wiring and power supply, although the latter mod's are key. We are coming down to subtleties of exactly where a cable within the enclosure runs, and exactly how the speaker wires are routed within the room.

Well it's comforting, at least, that we're not talking about defying the laws of physics with some tweaky nut case stuff that shouldn't make any difference at all.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Frank, I must say that your thinking on your system and how it relates to the sound of a 'live' orchestra still makes no sense to me whatsoever.
If you were to listen to a live kettle drum or a live trombone for example, I cannot believe that you could think that your little system can come even close to being able to reproduce those sounds in your listening environment; never-mind that any experienced listener would be fooled into thinking they are hearing the real thing!
...
Assuming that this is true, shouldn't you be getting a patent for these ideas and cashing in...just a thought

Just ask Vince or Roger about live sound, I'm not alone here, you know!

A few minutes ago I had Brendel playing piano at max volume, a not too brilliant early 60's recording on Vanguard, sounded pretty real to me, even some 25 yards away at the other end of the house where I'm sitting now. Some of the big notes were rattling some of the plastic bits in the room, and this is without the subwoofer running. It's not quite completely invisible right at the moment but it's not too bad ...

It's doing a pretty good job with brass, remarkable how well the solos were captured on the old 30's recordings. If you want to hear something spectacular, 70's and 80's rock tracks, absolutely massive soundstages, filled to overflowing with myriad acoustic spaces, amazing stuff!

The making money bit sounds good, any suggestions welcome!

Frank

 

[fas42]

Just point to your ear, Frank, it's right there. Well, I thought perhaps I didn't understand you, but I was wrong. I was getting exactly what you were saying -- you're getting perfectly coherent driver integration with your ear right in front of one of the drivers.
...
Well it's comforting, at least, that we're not talking about defying the laws of physics with some tweaky nut case stuff that shouldn't make any difference at all

We're not defying laws of physics, we're making good use of Gary's laws of psychoacoustics ...

Frank

 

[RogerD]

I'll just pop in here and make one important point. What Frank is describing is cumulative,it is not one thing that is responsible it is a whole of which there are many parts. Over the years I have experienced this level of reproduction using many different pieces,the only constant has been my speakers. But the speakers have been upgraded with different drivers and the crossovers matched accordingly.

If you have ever added a speaker cable,power cord or IC and noticed that at first using it sounds pretty good,then after 24 hours the stereo image changes position,it becomes closed,you have to increase the volume,then after some days,the sound begins to morph. The sound stage opens up the vocals are raised up and less volume is needed. What is really happening is that the dispersion of the drivers are becoming more coherent and correct. The efficency of the entire system has improved because there is less low level noise present.

Maybe what has really happened is the resistance has been lowered in the total system circuit. I can tell you that no matter what you do,you will never fully experience your systems potential till you understand that the main goal is to rid the system of low level noise and I believe that starts with good grounding using a star ground between your components.

Your total system will perform at a peak level and will have a profound effect on the way your speakers push air,because that's what they do, they are air pumps. The more efficient they perform the better the dispersion. I'm not a expert but after so many years fooling with my system this is the way I describe it.

 

[fas42]

I'll just pop in here and make one important point. What Frank is describing is cumulative,it is not one thing that is responsible it is a whole of which there are many parts. Over the years I have experienced this level of reproduction using many different pieces,the only constant has been my speakers.

Spot on, Roger, with your description. It's always good to have someone else come in from a different angle, they will phrase things another way, which will resonate better with another group of people ...

The stabilising of the system is crucial, at the moment I'm giving myself a hard time because I switch off overnight. Some of the mod's are rough and ready because I'm experimenting all the time, and I don't have sufficient trust that something won't go awry when I'm not around. Also, because the speakers are cheap they have to be hammered hard every time to warm them up properly.

When you switch cables, etc, you're playing with the second order effects, all the normal resistance, inductance and capacitance stuff is irrelevant, nasties like thermoelectric, piezoelectric and triboelectric come into play. Moving things about disturbs how those effects actually manifest so you need to run for some time for these mechanisms to sort themselves out again.

Again, what I would say you're doing is reducing the low level distortion as the system re-stabilises. The term low level noise in this area really means the same thing ...

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

Frank,
I don't think you should have mentioned 70's era rock tracks. I own many original 70's era UK pressing rock LP's. They are good, BUT they don't hold a candle to the real thing....the band I used to be in, played 'covers' of a lot of these works and believe me, the live vs. reproduced sound is not in the same league.
Trust me,the Mesa Boogie Tremoverb amp I used to recreate the 'guitar cover's' would absolutely destroy your little system in every way...Not only would you not even be able to hear your Philips system, your speakers would probably melt if they had that kind of punch being asked of them

 

[RogerD]

Frank,
I don't think you should have mentioned 70's era rock tracks. I own many original 70's era UK pressing rock LP's. They are good, BUT they don't hold a candle to the real thing....the band I used to be in, played 'covers' of a lot of these works and believe me, the live vs. reproduced sound is not in the same league.
Trust me,the Mesa Boogie Tremoverb amp I used to recreate the 'guitar cover's' would absolutely destroy your little system in every way...Not only would you not even be able to hear your Philips system, your speakers would probably melt if they had that kind of punch being asked of them

Davey, I have seen my share of live rock concerts and there's nothing like it. But just in case I'll play a tape of Quicksilver Messanger I have tomorrow night.

 

[fas42]

Frank,
I don't think you should have mentioned 70's era rock tracks. I own many original 70's era UK pressing rock LP's. They are good, BUT they don't hold a candle to the real thing....the band I used to be in, played 'covers' of a lot of these works and believe me, the live vs. reproduced sound is not in the same league.
Trust me,the Mesa Boogie Tremoverb amp I used to recreate the 'guitar cover's' would absolutely destroy your little system in every way...Not only would you not even be able to hear your Philips system, your speakers would probably melt if they had that kind of punch being asked of them

Remember, I am not asking the system to be a guitar amp, just to reproduce what was added into the mix. I have run the type of stuff you're talking about, without a problem. One of the test tracks is a live version of Hendrix - Voodoo Chile (Slight Return), beautifully recorded. The Marshall growls, churns, bites and screams like it should from the right speaker, from the left the drum kit is clean as you could wish for, cymbals shimmering beautifully.

I mentioned once my brother played in bands, I been next to a Marshall in heat many times ...

Frank

 

[Robh3606]

What is really happening is that the dispersion of the drivers are becoming more coherent and correct.

Hello Roger

The dispersion doesn't change with time?? You mean the polar response of the speakers?? That's fixed be it horns, direct radiators or panels. The only way to change that system wide is in the crossover and it will only change through the affected areas.

Rob

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

We're not defying laws of physics, we're making good use of Gary's laws of psychoacoustics ...

Frank

Nah. If you have the tweeter right up to your ear and what you hear is perfectly coherent driver integration, you're making good use of a vivid imagination, not psychoacoustics. But let's say it is psychoacoustics, that the human brain has the ability to imagine the full, undistorted music and fill in the blanks, when the ear is only hearing the blast of a piezio super tweeter from a HTIB speaker from just a couple of inches away.....

This has nothing to do with your tweaks except that your mind requires that you do something before it will convince you that what cannot be is. You could just as well have tweaked the plumbing as the power supply, Frank. It's a question of what you can convince yourself is real, not reality.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

This has got to be the longest rally in the history of WBF. You guys got stamina!