"Lean back" or "Lean in" listening?

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,039
4,211
2,520
United States
An Op-Ed appeared today in the WSJ called "Streaming for Audiophiles" with the subheading:

Spotify announced it would begin offering higher-resolution sound. But will you really be able to hear the difference, or care?


You may not be able to access this without a subscription. To be honest, the discussion of audio quality in this article is something most will not find interesting or new. Rather, the interesting part of the article for me was the discussion of what kind of listening we do. Here's the excerpt that caught my attention:

"Streaming services differentiate between “lean back” listeners, who want to hit play and be served by music they like without going through the hassle of finding and selecting songs, and “lean in” listeners, who are actively engaged with each listening decision. The “lean back” streaming listeners of today are analogous to radio listeners. While Spotify delivers music on demand, it’s not necessarily there to be consumed carefully or critically. Last year, the company said that roughly two-thirds of the listening time on the service is spent on playlists, either those created by Spotify or by its users."

What kind of listening do you do?
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,348
3,082
1,910
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
In my listening room never "lean back" I go in there to be transported or amazed. I go in there to get lost in the music and to change my mood. alleviate stress and just make me happy. The other kind of listening is reserved for my car or working out etc.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,652
13,688
2,710
London
I would prefer to be lean back for most of the day and lean in for a short focused period
 

rando

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2019
1,705
1,240
245
Online
Streaming, lean in.

Qobuz layout appeals to me immensely. Favorites placed directly in order they were added is a particularly treasured decision. My entry into this hobby was predicated on the knowledge a vast number of good recordings by unrecognized musicians/composers/labels/etc. was out there to be found. Particularly for those with interest in Classical and related World genres. I find the emphasis on active discovery with very limited focus on playlists or other massive lists (especially New Releases) of the utmost benefit. Enjoyable research.

The one current downfall of streaming is also present in the other popular streaming tool, Youtube. Music can disappear or reappear in unexpected places requiring a bit of leaning out to 'let the world come to you.'
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,361
1,355
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
I lean in and lean back according to the harmonics of the wind, the sea, the stars and the planets. It works out well for me.

I like Spotify. I really enjoy seeing the album art on a Fire tablet. I also luv luv luv luv reading the poetry of the music title names. Miles Davis has great title names like 'Backseat Betty' 'I Loved Him Madly' 'So What' etc. etc. DJ Krush has some great names 'Stellar Wind' 'Still Island', Toshiniro Kondo 'I As A Black Hole' which cracks me up, Shpongle 'The Seventh Revelation', Thievery Corporation 'The Doors of Perception'.

Sound quality streaming on Spotify is 'good enough' for me, and I don't have any pinky lifting reservations about the res when actually listening. It works across mac, cell phone, Yamaha Pre-Pro, and even Playstation 4. Of course, it is great for exploring new music as well.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,300
775
1,698

Streaming for Audiophiles - WSJ​


On Feb. 22, streaming audio platform Spotify announced Spotify Hi-Fi, which will bring higher-resolution sound to its customers in select territories. The details of the offering -- pricing, where and when it will be available -- are still to come, but industry watchers have been speculating about the possibility of a higher-resolution offering from Spotify for several years.

CD-quality streaming became widely available in 2015, when Tidal launched Tidal Hifi, and platforms like Qobuz, Deezer and Amazon Music followed suit. Spotify announced their offering with a promotional video featuring singer Billie Eilish and her producer brother Finneas O'Connell discussing the power of high-resolution audio in the context of their work, explaining how their songs are filled with small but important details that can be obscured by inferior reproduction. "High-quality audio just means more info," Ms. Eilish says in the clip. "There's just things you will not hear if you don't have a good sound system."

Is she right? Ms. Eilish's 2019 album, "When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?" -- written by the singer and her brother and produced by Mr. O'Connell -- is an intriguing mix of forceful bass and delicate voices, with Ms. Eilish's whispery vocals close to your ear and a low-end that massages your temples. A "good sound system" -- especially well-made speakers and headphones -- will render these elements with the requisite force and detail, but the precise role of higher-resolution audio in that process is harder to parse. Purely in terms of its sonic character, Spotify Hi-Fi, for most people, probably won't make much of a difference. Rather, the company's addition of the service is significant because it nods to the idea that quality matters and music is important, subtly reframing the platform as a tool for active rather than passive listening.

While one initial promise of streaming media was that it would replace the record collection, allowing each subscriber instant access to a massive and ever-expanding pool of music, it also created a new kind of radio. Streaming services differentiate between "lean back" listeners, who want to hit play and be served by music they like without going through the hassle of finding and selecting songs, and "lean in" listeners, who are actively engaged with each listening decision.

The "lean back" streaming listeners of today are analogous to radio listeners. While Spotify delivers music on demand, it's not necessarily there to be consumed carefully or critically. Last year, the company said that roughly two-thirds of the listening time on the service is spent on playlists, either those created by Spotify or by its users.

Since the introduction of the long-playing record in 1948, audiophiles have mostly turned to albums, as opposed to singles or the radio. This is the group that has been loudest in calling for Spotify to improve the resolution of its streaming offering. Spotify Hi-Fi will be of most concern to these committed album listeners, rather than the majority of those who are listening to playlists.

Will they hear a difference? If you've followed the ebb and flow of conversations among those who value high-quality sound, you know consensus about anything regarding quality is hard to come by.

And that's not to mention confusion regarding the terms "hi-fi" and especially "hi-res" when it comes to audio. With Spotify's announcement, "hi-fi" means "CD quality." Digital audio data is described in terms of its bit depth, which captures relative volume, and its sample rate, which captures frequency. The CD standard -- a bit depth of 16 and a sampling rate of 44.1kHz -- is described as "lossless," while compressed formats such as mp3 and Ogg Vorbis (the latter is used by Spotify) alter the data in favor of smaller files and are called "lossy." The degree to which these alterations are audible is a matter of some debate.

Some research, such as a 2009 study at Montreal's McGill University, suggests untrained listeners can't distinguish between digital files compressed at 320kbs, currently the highest Spotify setting, and CD files. A popular online quiz posted by NPR in 2015 found that a small but statistically significant number of users can identify uncompressed audio, though only 1% of respondents picked the highest-resolution file every time.

So it's reasonable to assume that a small percentage of people, if they have the right playback equipment, will hear the difference between Spotify Hi-Fi and lossy streaming at its highest setting. And perhaps two of those will be Billie Eilish and Finneas O'Connell, especially if they are listening to the music they made together. A larger percentage of people will only think they hear a difference, because their awareness of the quality of the file they are listening to informs their opinion of how it sounds. Still, if you are wired a certain way as a listener, the idea that you might be missing something can nag at you.

The most striking fact about latter-day discussions about sound quality and streaming may be just how far ahead of its time the compact disc was. In 1981, the year before the commercial release of the first CD, a man named Marc Finer, Sony's director of product communications, went from one record label to the next showing what the new technology could do. He carried with him a CD copy of an album by another Billy -- the 1978 LP "52nd Street," by a veteran singer-songwriter born William Joel. As relayed in Robert Barry's 2020 book "Compact Disc," Mr. Finer reported that the label heads were astonished by the clarity of the album's second track, "Honesty," when heard via this new system. Improbably, 40 years later, the technical standard in place during those playback sessions is, in streaming media, still considered state-of-the-art.

---

Mr. Richardson is the Journal's rock and pop music critic.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,671
10,944
3,515
USA
I would prefer to be lean back for most of the day and lean in for a short focused period

As my system sounds increasingly natural, I find that I do not have to lean in to focus on the sound to enjoy myself. The system simply presents the music in a relaxed and convincing way for about three hours a day. I suspect it will be even more so as the system progresses.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,607
11,697
4,410
lean back?

seriously. :rolleyes:

when you sit in the near field (ears 109" away) of 3000 pounds of 7 foot tall twin towers, it's lean-all-the-way-in-all-the-time. immersive and involving. no place for the music to hide. obviously with TAS and Quboz and my files i have lots of 'lean in' digital.

there is no leaning back. even my multi-tasking demands a lean in type of musical support. if i use my headphones to listen to youtube MP3 music i'll put up with that with the video from my laptop adding to the sensory delivery. i'm good with that.

my wife has Sonos going on in the house that is certainly a lean back approach. it works for her. she likes the music plenty, but it's not holding her complete attention. it's simply around what she does. she uses my NAS and Tidal as sources.

we are both happy and musically fulfilled.
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,039
4,211
2,520
United States
As my system sounds increasingly natural, I find that I do not have to lean in to focus on the sound to enjoy myself. The system simply presents the music in a relaxed and convincing way for about three hours a day. I suspect it will be even more so as the system progresses.
Peter,
Since you are all analog, I don't think the lean back/lean in streaming terminology is relevant to you. It refers more to listening to streaming sources. Do you listen to streamed digital music more like it was a radio station (lean back) or do you play things that you search.a playlist for, or curate from a source such as Qobuz/Tidal/Spotify (lean in). Since I presume nobody is putting random LPs on your TT as your private DJ for 3 hours a day, I think that makes you a lean-in type of guy!
Marty
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bonzo75 and PeterA

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,671
10,944
3,515
USA
Peter,
Since you are all analog, I don't think the lean back/lean in streaming terminology is relevant to you. It refers more to listening to streaming sources. Do you listen to streamed digital music more like it was a radio station (lean back) or do you play things that you search.a playlist for, or curate from a source such as Qobuz/Tidal/Spotify (lean in). Since I presume nobody is putting random LPs on your TT as your private DJ for 3 hours a day, I think that makes you lean-in type of guy!
Marty

Thanks Marty. I'm lost as usual here.
 

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
1,709
407
405
Personally, I listen to music I enjoy. At 71 I realize life is too short to waste time listening to music I don’t like. If I don’t like a song it gets removed from the playlist.
 

Holli82

Well-Known Member
Jun 6, 2010
319
331
1,620
Personally, I listen to music I enjoy. At 71 I realize life is too short to waste time listening to music I don’t like. If I don’t like a song it gets removed from the playlist.
Kind of my approach to wine now....
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,039
4,211
2,520
United States
Kind of my approach to wine now....
+1!! After countless reviews and tastings, I'm far more comfortable with my favorites and find it easy to dismiss "Billie Eilish" wines that some insist I simply must try or I'll be missing out. It takes many years to learn that "missing out" is often the more pleasurable experience!
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: RussR and cjfrbw

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,348
3,082
1,910
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
lean back?

seriously. :rolleyes:

when you sit in the near field (ears 109" away) of 3000 pounds of 7 foot tall twin towers, it's lean-all-the-way-in-all-the-time. immersive and involving. no place for the music to hide. obviously with TAS and Quboz and my files i have lots of 'lean in' digital.

there is no leaning back. even my multi-tasking demands a lean in type of musical support. if i use my headphones to listen to youtube MP3 music i'll put up with that with the video from my laptop adding to the sensory delivery. i'm good with that.

my wife has Sonos going on in the house that is certainly a lean back approach. it works for her. she likes the music plenty, but it's not holding her complete attention. it's simply around what she does. she uses my NAS and Tidal as sources.

we are both happy and musically fulfilled.
right on Mike. Isn't that we assemble these incredible systems?
 

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,348
3,082
1,910
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
For those of you who don't "lean in" I suggest you try an experiment.
Turn off your phone/laptop etc.
close the lights
pick a piece of music you love
close your eyes

If you don't get involved there is something wrong with what you are doing. Just one man's opinion of what a high end audio system is supposed to do.
 

Ed.P

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
71
95
123
Personally, I listen to music I enjoy. At 71 I realize life is too short to waste time listening to music I don’t like. If I don’t like a song it gets removed from the playlist.

Many years ago the author Martin Amis gave a small talk I attended and someone asked him what his father (Kingsley Amis) thought of his books. He claimed his father has never read any of them since before Martin's first novel was published Kingsley had taken a vow never to read another book that didn't begin with "A shot rang out...."
 
  • Like
Reactions: rando

jeromelang

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2011
439
66
935
I can't lean back and listen passively to an entire album via streaming because there is always sonic degradation on the next subsequent track within an album.

For a while I thought I could rely on pre curated playlists streamed through a non hi-rez streamer. But not anymore. Not through a hi-rez capable streamer. Ever since I started noticing that whenever there is a change in sampling rates transiting from 1 track to the next, the subsequent track always suffer from some sonic aberrations. I need to compile my own playlists made up of tracks of only 1 type of sampling rate.
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,039
4,211
2,520
United States
I would prefer to be lean back for most of the day and lean in for a short focused period

I always start my sessions with something purposeful which requires lean-in listening. But when the selection/album/playlist stops and Roon radio kicks in, it's often lean-back listening, Sometimes it's determined by composer. It's pretty easy to lean-back to Mozart, but I could never lean-back to Mahler. It usually takes a lot of work to get into his world in order to feel his magic and the ecstasy of his music. That's typical of most romantic works which are often thematic and your mind is following a musical story being woven in sonata form which requires focus. On the other hand some post romantic music such as Messiaen is like a painting done with music (as he described it) so lean-back works there as well. And of course, some music is neither lean-back or lean-in. When I hear Talking Heads, my brain just says "get out of the chair you slug, and dance" :)
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing