KLAudio returns - new KD-CLN-LP200T RCM

djsina2

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Will be picking up my new KL-CLN-200T Thursday.
Looking forward to using this as I am on my 2nd Degritter... they are ok for 'light' use, but when you have a 'Quick, Medium & Heavy' settings but can't use the 'Heavy' because you will even more quickly prematurely wear out the transducers... plus, if you clean more than 2 or 3 records it will overheat and go into cool down. This is a machine for someone with a smaller collection or does not clean that many records often.
Also, the 1.4 liter tank needs to have water changed often as you are just bathing your records in the same dirt, chemicals, oils etc. that you removed from them. The foam 'filter' is only for collecting the larger solids.

To me, the Klaudio may be 2x the price, but you are getting 2x the machine and just the water tank/filter system alone makes it worth the difference. Plus, no over heating.

@rich121 how’s it going with your new 200T? Mine arrives tomorrow. I had the original Kluadio and then the Degritter for the past 4 years.
 

rich121

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@rich121 how’s it going with your new 200T? Mine arrives tomorrow. I had the original Kluadio and then the Degritter for the past 4 years.
Congratulations! I'm sure you know what to expect and will love the new one even more.
Will be setting it up tonight, just got back from the Pacific Audio Fest.
Actually, I need to set it up tonight, as I have quite a bit of vinyl piling up over the past week or so as..... my Degritter smoked a component inside... still operational, but putting out bad electrical burnt smell...
Very disappointing with the Degritter, as I said, this is my 2nd one. The first one lasted a couple weeks, then transducer component smoked.
The replacement has lasted a couple years... but I have had to 'baby' it only using 'Medium' cycle so as to not over heat the transducers... well I guess it didn't matter, because after only 1300 cycles it is toast.
People complain about the cost of the Klaudio, but in just about every catagory it betters the Degritter by many multitudes... Mike from 'InGroove' says his older Klaudio machines, which are not built as well as the new model, will go 20,000 to 100,000 cycles before needing "maintenance".
Now compare that to the Degritter....
Plus... no worry how many records you can clean, nor how long you run the transducers... fresh, filtered solution is circulated thru the machine as the record is being cleaned, rated for 500 records per water change, external tank that can be changed in seconds.. even from type of fluid to another or rinse water... plus all the custom options the external tank gives.
 
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tima

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Plus... no worry how many records you can clean, nor how long you run the transducers... fresh, filtered solution is circulated thru the machine as the record is being cleaned, rated for 500 records per water change, external tank that can be changed in seconds.. even from type of fluid to another or rinse water... plus all the custom options the external tank gives.

Do you use the external tank? Do you do a rinse cycle? I have learned that rinsing is an important step.
 

rich121

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Depends... I change my water with every session of the UltraSonic (Degritter) I think that the tank holds so little water to begin (1.4 quarts) that its not doing much as a rinse... and if the record is new and looks very clean, I may just run it thru, then a listen, as I usually have to run a record thru the system multiple times ... Clean/Play/Clean before getting rid of most tics and light noise.
If it is new and appears dirty or a used record, then I will clean on my Keith Monks, run thru UltraSonic, then final rinse on Keith monks before 1st play.
Doing the final rinse on the Keith Monks saves time, as I am doing rinse and drying at the same time and it insures the cleanest record possible.
 
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Neil.Antin

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fresh, filtered solution is circulated thru the machine as the record is being cleaned, rated for 500 records per water change
If I may make a suggestion:

1. Monitor the water quality with a total dissolved solids meter - COM-100 – hmdigital.com; you purchase Amazon.com: HM Digital 716160 COM-100 Waterproof Professional Series Combo Meter, 7", White/Purple : Industrial & Scientific and other sources.

2. The inexpensive KLAudio filter Replacement Filter Core for KD-CLN-LP200S/T Cleaners (klaudio.com) is just a sediment filter - it will filter insoluble particles and given the low cost its rating is not more than 5" length, 1-micron nominal and here is an example SDC_DS.pdf (hydronixwater.com). The filter is about 80% efficient at 1-micron and 99% efficient at 50-micron.

3. Sediment filters do not remove soluble contaminants. Over time the water will absorb contaminants from the air plus anything that is soluble from the record, and overtime, the total dissolved solids (TDS) will increase above the baseline of whatever you are using for water. If the water is allowed to dry on the record, the TDS will come out of solution and deposit on the record as a hard scale. The probability/threshold for when this hard-scale residue can become audible (ticks) increases quickly above 50-ppm depending on how much high-TDS water is allowed to dry on the record and how uniform the residue when it dries. Now if you are post rinsing with the KM, the risk of TDS is mitigated.

4. FYI, the filter system @tima uses is rated 0.2-micron absolute with essentially 99% removal efficiency and 0.2-micron absolute can remove bacteria. The 1-micron nominal will not remove bacteria, and you should keep a "nose-out" for any funky/objectionable odor; indication to change out the water.

Again, this is merely a suggestion.

Neil
 

rich121

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If I may make a suggestion:

1. Monitor the water quality with a total dissolved solids meter - COM-100 – hmdigital.com; you purchase Amazon.com: HM Digital 716160 COM-100 Waterproof Professional Series Combo Meter, 7", White/Purple : Industrial & Scientific and other sources.

2. The inexpensive KLAudio filter Replacement Filter Core for KD-CLN-LP200S/T Cleaners (klaudio.com) is just a sediment filter - it will filter insoluble particles and given the low cost its rating is not more than 5" length, 1-micron nominal and here is an example SDC_DS.pdf (hydronixwater.com). The filter is about 80% efficient at 1-micron and 99% efficient at 50-micron.

3. Sediment filters do not remove soluble contaminants. Over time the water will absorb contaminants from the air plus anything that is soluble from the record, and overtime, the total dissolved solids (TDS) will increase above the baseline of whatever you are using for water. If the water is allowed to dry on the record, the TDS will come out of solution and deposit on the record as a hard scale. The probability/threshold for when this hard-scale residue can become audible (ticks) increases quickly above 50-ppm depending on how much high-TDS water is allowed to dry on the record and how uniform the residue when it dries. Now if you are post rinsing with the KM, the risk of TDS is mitigated.

4. FYI, the filter system @tima uses is rated 0.2-micron absolute with essentially 99% removal efficiency and 0.2-micron absolute can remove bacteria. The 1-micron nominal will not remove bacteria, and you should keep a "nose-out" for any funky/objectionable odor; indication to change out the water.

Again, this is merely a suggestion.

Neil
"I change my water with every session of the UltraSonic" As you said, these filters do not remove soluables, and even using a .2um filter can not filter these... best solution is fresh solution.
Actually already have that HM TDS meter and a couple others, as I have been using a RO/DI system for years and always test.

Like I said earlier, if the records are new and appear clean, I may run them straight in the Ultrasonic, but they will get another clean after they are played the first time, as that is also an important part of the cleaning cycle.
If new and look dirty or used, I first clean on Keith Monks (sometimes multiple times, using multiple different solutions depending on need) then UltraSonic then final pure water rinse/dry on Keith Monks... it doesn't get cleaner than that.

The design of the Klaudio allows for easy upgrade for anyone who would like to better the filter system.
 
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Neil.Antin

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"I change my water with every session of the UltraSonic" As you said, these filters do not remove soluables, and even using a .2um filter can not filter these... best solution is fresh solution.
Actually already have that HM DTS meter and a couple others, as I have been using a RO/DI system for years and always test.
That does eliminate any TDS risk.

The design of the Klaudio allows for easy upgrade for anyone who would like to better the filter system.
Be careful with upgrading the filter since the submersible pump will likely not have the head (discharge pressure) to handle the higher pressure drop with an upgraded filter with smaller pore size. Unless KLAudio has the pump curve to share, I would recommend staying with their filter.
 

rich121

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@tima, @bazelio, @marty:

Make no mistake, that the powerful UT tanks that are used being used for record cleaning can damage a record. I recently assisted someone who was using an Elmasonic P60 with temperatures as high as 50C with a Vinylstack spinner at about 0.15-rpm, and at least one record was damaged. The record surface took on a dull, mottled finish. Now there was no subjective audible damage but without comparison to a new record that could be debatable.

Now in this case, four factors were in play - the high power of the Elmasonic, the 37kHz which with power can damage surfaces (with the power of the Elmasonic and 37kHz - it could pit gold), the high temperature and the very slow spin speed.

When people try to compare other uses of UT to UT for record cleaning, very often the comparison is not applicable. Always remember, there is the power needed for onset of cavitation, which is not that much, and then there is cavitation intensity which is power dependent. Cleaning jewelry is easy and does not need a lot of UT power and given the nature of the substrate that is metallic or jewels that are relatively soft, you definitely do not want a lot of power - it will pit the surface. Additionally, the surfaces do not want to hold on to detritus like a record does.

The record is a rather odd beast to clean. The stylus can produce an audible response equal to a displacement of less than 1-micron, and trying to remove particles and films this and smaller is not easy. And this is complicated by the material (the substrate) that has these wild properties - first its plastic which wants to hold on to all forms of detritus - this isn't Teflon, its elastic - it's not rigid like metal so it can deform under high cavitation intensity, and it has this crazy looking groove with side wall ridges - it's like trying to clean the Grand Canyon.

So, on first glance the record appears pretty simple, but dive deeper and it becomes quite a challenge to clean it well enough to recover all the music it can reproduce with mostly absent any crackly background.

Ultimately the devil is in the details.

Take care,
Neil
Neil, I finally set-up the Klaudio Monday
I wanted to find the approximate water used 'inside' the machine while running, as it seemed like a very small amount, so, on the external reservoir, I marked the water level when machine is 'OFF', and all water has drained back into reservoir, and then marked the water level when machine is washing or 'ON'.
I was quite surprised to measure that only 30 ounces of water used... and that is including the water in the input line (6mm) and waste line (13mm), which, when running, the input line is 'full', pushing water, and waste line is mixed water/air as waste water is free falling...(the water flows thru the machine constantly while cleaning) so I would estimate only about 26 ounces in the machine itself.
Checked power draw and connect to Watt meter. It ran between 188 watts (start-up) and after a 10 or or 20 seconds fluctuated between 210 to 235 watts.
 
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Young Skywalker

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Could some kind person please measure the total vertical height required for the separate reservoir and filter for the latest version of the KL Audio RCM? I am trying to determine if it will fit in the space under an existing cabinet.
 

rich121

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Could some kind person please measure the total vertical height required for the separate reservoir and filter for the latest version of the KL Audio RCM? I am trying to determine if it will fit in the space under an existing cabinet.
It is 14" to the top of the filter... if you can get 14" of space, you got it!
 
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rich121

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@rich121 how’s it going with your new 200T? Mine arrives tomorrow. I had the original Kluadio and then the Degritter for the past 4 years.
Sorry, I missed re-responding to your post.
Just set up the machine on Monday and it seems to be doing great. Cleaned 25 records and did 1st water change. Then cleaned 25 more and changed water again.
Had a pile-up as the Degritter started smelling bad...electrical issue, so stopped using it.

How are you liking yours? Have you used it much?
 

Young Skywalker

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Neil.Antin

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so I would estimate only about 26 ounces in the machine itself.
Checked power draw and connect to Watt meter. It ran between 188 watts (start-up) and after a 10 or or 20 seconds fluctuated between 210 to 235 watts.
The 26-ounces = 768-ml; that is a very small volume for the 200W UT power. I rechecked the current 200T manual and it states that the internal reservoir holds 2.5-L, and the latest 200T manual makes no mention of the reservoir capacity. So, your measurement pretty much confirms that the reservoir holds much more water than the unit actually needs which does a couple of items: It keep the pump primed, and it helps to keep the water it cool. Assuming no thermal losses, 200W can heat 768-ml about 6-degF/min. If you were to a run a 5-min cycle (first run of the day) when the unit drained down - the temperature of the drain hose should feel warm compared to the reservoir. After a number of cycles, the reservoir should warm up, and eventually with ambient at low-mid-70's, reach some equilibrium temperature.

Otherwise, your measured power is right on target for the advertised 200W UT power, there are some power supply loses, and power for the electronics and the spinner.

Take care,
Neil
 
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djsina2

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Sorry, I missed re-responding to your post.
Just set up the machine on Monday and it seems to be doing great. Cleaned 25 records and did 1st water change. Then cleaned 25 more and changed water again.
Had a pile-up as the Degritter started smelling bad...electrical issue, so stopped using it.

How are you liking yours? Have you used it much?
So far so good. After coming from Degritter it’s hard getting used to the noise level and the fact the records almost look dry as they’re being washed. I do like the simplicity and quicker cycle times. I’m rewashing records done with chemicals in the Degritter and I get the impression another layer of noise is being removed. Will do more testing.
 

djsina2

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I ran 3x 5 min cycles in a row and the water in the bottle is 77.8F. @Neil.Antin what is the recommended PPM number before changing the water?
 

Neil.Antin

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I ran 3x 5 min cycles in a row and the water in the bottle is 77.8F. @Neil.Antin what is the recommended PPM number before changing the water?
What was the water in the bottle temperature before you started cleaning and what was the ambient air temperature near the bottle?

As far as TDS PPM about 5 PPM increase above the water baseline TDS (before any cleaning), or as the KLAudio 200T manual says "...every few weeks, or if the water appears particularly dirty"; whichever comes first.
 
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djsina2

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What was the water in the bottle temperature before you started cleaning and what was the ambient air temperature near the bottle?

I did another test. Thermostat said 71F in this room. I didn’t get a before water temp but 5x 5 min washes with 3 min dry cycles and the water was at 84.5F.
 
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Neil.Antin

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I did another test. Thermostat said 71F in this room. I didn’t get a before water temp but 5x 5 min washes with 3 min dry cycles and the water was at 84.5F.
It's a powerful unit. According to the manual noting that the water temperature is water in the UT tank.

2. The priming LED light flashes red and an alarm sounds. Two repeating beeps: Water temperature is above 40°C (104F). Allow the cleaner to cool-down before use, or purchase an optional cooling unit.
 

Koegz

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Wondering if anyone has had contact with KLAudio recently? I am interest in purchasing a 200T. I have emailed and called. I have left messages and sent emails over the last 8 days. No response. Making me reconsider my purchase. Thanks for any info.
 

djsina2

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Wondering if anyone has had contact with KLAudio recently? I am interest in purchasing a 200T. I have emailed and called. I have left messages and sent emails over the last 8 days. No response. Making me reconsider my purchase. Thanks for any info.
I saw they are showing their turntable at the Tokyo audio show, which is this weekend, so probably been busy. That being said it’s probably better to ask questions to Acoustic Sounds.
 
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