Kharma Exquisite Extreme Grand install

May 30, 2010
14,130
79
48
Portugal
#42
WOuld like to add my 0.02 Euro to this. I understand your insistence on the system approach but I would say that it begins with the speakers. Some large speakers, the old Magnepan for example would never entirely disappear it was in their DNA, I would venture to say the design had some flaws which would never help them project a small image, regardless of the electronics used and believe me I have heard them with anything from Monster Amp to OTL Tubes passing through SET. They have progressed to a point where the new Maggies, the .7 series can and will disappear with proper set-up. I do not share your point about electronics and the "disappearing" act , I know of some speakers that simply disappear inmost roonm with almost any electronics, the old Spica TC-50 were master of this disappearing act, regardless of electronics or front end.

As for Sonus Faber I have experienced the Electa Amator doing a strange "I-am-not-even-there-so-where-is-the-sound-coming-from?"but the sound was as big as any speakers had any right to be... To me one of the best Sonus Faber ever...
As for Wilson the X-2 works on small scale as well as any speaker large or small... heard it doing so with various electronics...
Frantz,

I do not know from where I should start ...

You are presenting mostly single cases of dinosaurs while I was addressing the general case of mammals we can find now in the Zoo. :) It is always easy to find existing exceptions to any findings. Curiously I have owned specimen of all the dinosaurs you refer. The Tympani IV could disappear - you could not believe that you had a wall of speakers facing you when you opened your eyes. And I listened to them playing chamber music with adequate scale - surely not extreme pin point, something that seldom exists in real music.

I owned an early version of the old Spica TC-50 - the treble was poor and as far as I remember, the listener position needed to be kept in a vice in order to get a realistic image. It was even worst than the ESL63 in this aspect - please let me sit, it is my time to listen. Sorry, but the tonal balance was so poor that I could never find it could disappear with classical music. It was very short lived in my home - really an audiophile mistake induced by magazine reviews. And when used with cheap electronics the sound would be grabbed to the speakers. However, when used with the Audio Research D70 it showed great depth.

Considering the X2 I also heard them sounding miserable, like two singing robots in the room, and then changing completely after two hours warmup of the system. Then they really disappeared ...

I keep the Amator dinosaur for the end of my post, as they are my current speakers temporary in a different place for most of the time during the last weeks. I love them - they are great as you said, have an enormous image, but properly amplified the Sonus Faber Futura or Aida disappear even better. And I am not thinking about Frank750 TheSonusFaber's... But connected to the Harman Kardom receiver that usually feeds them in the home theater system sound small in stereo. BTW, I think you told us you would like listening to the Q3 with the Devialet. For the good of audiophile knowledge ;), I would love to listen to the Futura's driven by the Devialet.

I have to say I do not care where it exactly begins - for me this type of debate is like the egg or the hen.
 

Joe Galbraith

Senior Member/Sponsor
Apr 23, 2010
214
0
0
www.arsetmusica.com
#43

Geardaddy

New Member
Oct 1, 2012
521
0
0
Charlotte, NC
#44
Housings such as kharma builds will surely help with the disappearing act , there are certain levels of disappearing:), with very good speakers you only hear music
IMO very good loudspeakers with relatively cheap amps , will still disappear in room , dont skip on speakers.
Only negative thing i found on this thread is that that building in china definetively needs an elevator:D
+1
 

Geardaddy

New Member
Oct 1, 2012
521
0
0
Charlotte, NC
#46
The previous generation of this speaker was my dream speaker, although after seeing the photographic sequence of the install, I am feeling a little less inspired.

In years past, Lamm SETs were a good match for this speaker....
 
Jan 23, 2011
3,858
0
36
Amsterdam holland
#47
funny thing is that the last time i was in breda ( quite a few years ago ) , the best amps i heard the kharma classics on (with ceramic mid ) was on their Kharma P -150 pre amp and exquisite poweramp (digital iirc ) , ive heard kharmas on lamm , boulder and their 1000 series own designs .
That P-150 pre is definetively one i want to try out some day
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,572
3
38
#48
funny thing is that the last time i was in breda ( quite a few years ago ) , the best amps i heard the kharma classics on (with ceramic mid ) was on their Kharma P -150 pre amp and exquisite poweramp (digital iirc ) , ive heard kharmas on lamm , boulder and their 1000 series own designs .
That P-150 pre is definetively one i want to try out some day
How do these sound in comparison with other big speakers? Most curious!
 
Jan 23, 2011
3,858
0
36
Amsterdam holland
#49
One thing they excell at is ease of presentation while staying very detailed , kharma has gone through extreme efforts to make a non resonant housing , its all made of sections of material put together (this means a lot off waist material ) .
I havent heard all of the big speakers , as they are not all represented overhere, i never have heard the exquisite grands or extreme grands, i should go to breda again someday and have a listen
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,572
3
38
#50
One thing they excell at is ease of presentation while staying very detailed , kharma has gone through extreme efforts to make a non resonant housing , its all made of sections of material put together (this means a lot off waist material ) .
I havent heard all of the big speakers , as they are not all represented overhere.
Thanks...that is very very interesting. After reading up and listening to Rockport and of course Wilson, i have found much benefit in certain minor 'updates' to my big Wilsons...reducing vibration is definitely one of them. I have one more big project i am working on for this...we shall see if it is successful.
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,572
3
38
#52
May be you should also have a listen to my latest design one day , they are probably a mix between the 2 wilson and kharma and easy to drive , resonance is merely a thing from the past
Sounds great...the only speaker where i could not find resonance is the Arrakis. With the Arrakis playing above shouting levels, i put my fingertips by the bass cabinet...and if i were unable to hear (ie, deaf), i would not have known whether the speaker was playing...and my pants were literally flapping!! It was truly remarkable. By contrast, the Focal Grand EM, Wilson XLFs, Estelon Extremes...when playing heavy bass material, when i put my fingertips on the cabinet by the bass driver, i know the speaker is playing even if it is the slightest most gentle movement. I should try a Magico next time i hear one.
 
Jan 23, 2011
3,858
0
36
Amsterdam holland
#53
Well ,magico has braced alu alloy extensively with stainless steel , probably one of the reasons the Q 7 is so heavy .
IMO phenolic resin based cabinets which " probably " include wilson audio X material ? and kharma ( HPL ) my design is also HPL based , are just a little more non resonant then alu alloy based ones.
I never heard the Arrakis unfortunately or any rockport speaker for that matter
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,572
3
38
#54
Well ,magico has braced alu alloy extensively with stainless steel , probably one of the reasons the Q 7 is so heavy .
IMO phenolic resin based cabinets which " probably " include wilson audio X material ? and kharma ( HPL ) my design is also HPL based , are just a little more non resonant then alu alloy based ones.
I never heard the Arrakis unfortunately or any rockport speaker for that matter
Interesting...yes, Wilson X is phenolic resin. Rockport uses multiple materials in their designs...carbon fiber, a few shells and then some kind of resin polymer or composite they pour into a mould...also extremely heavy. the Altair is 1.5m tall and weighs 240kg each. The Arrakis is 2.1m tall and weighs 410kg each.
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,572
3
38
#56
Maybe Loudspeakers should be selected according to weight :D
The carbon fiber which is used in the Rockport as well as the M project is merely to make it all look sharp i think , which is also important to sell a product
Yes, it looks cool...Transparent uses them in their Opus series cables.
 

jfrech

VIP/Donor
Sep 3, 2012
1,539
1
38
Austin
#58
Maybe Loudspeakers should be pre - selected according to weight :D
The carbon fiber which is used in the Rockport as well as the M project is merely there to make it all look sharp i think , which is also important to sell a product
Are you sure ?!?, any data to back up your point? as a rockport owner and having visited their facility, rockport is using carbon fiber for more than looking sharp...
 

jfrech

VIP/Donor
Sep 3, 2012
1,539
1
38
Austin
#60
If so please enlighten me whatfore or is it a secret ??
For speakers you generally need non resonating weighty materials
This is the enclosure for the Rockport Altair. The shell is some sort of resin impregnated fiberglass. The Rockport Arrakis "steps" up the fiber glass to Carbon Fiber. It's definitely not for looks...quite thick and rigid with a damping compound inside this shell....

rockport cabinet.jpg
 

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