KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[morricab]

Fyne Audio F1-12

I was keen to hear these speakers after visiting my friend Jim's Tannoy Westminsters a few months ago. My friend, Mike Bovaird at Suncoast Audio, has raved about them for a year as well. My first trip during the pandemic on an airplane would bring me to see my father as well as his relatively new store. And I can also say traveling with 25% of an airplane's capacity was actually pleasant. First class on a transcon was only $150 more, direct.

Mike's store has 3 rooms (L, M, S) and the big Fyne F1-12 was setup in the M room (17' x 25' so actually more large to me). Electronics were Pass XP22/X260.8 and Gryphon Pandora/Essence with a MSB Discrete dac (I own a Premier). The speakers are gorgeous in person - as they are in pictures to most. The woodwork and finish is top notch, the overhung caps a nice touch. While the burled wood isn't my particular style, the speaker is beautiful. I also was expecting a much larger one but the sloped sides and finish draw less attention in person. The "cone" where the driver is located is neat as it's slotted in aluminum to the cabinet and covered with leather (like a SF). So the jet engine look is less in person!

We started on the Pass electronics. The sound was big and present sounding - if not a bit more forward than others I've listened to. It was easy to hear how coherent they are in 5 minutes though and I didn't notice the stilted leading edge like when I had the X350.8 on my YGs. There is something about coaxial drivers that make one relax instantly. However, after more listening the bass was a little round/indistinct, the mids a bit lacking, and the highs perhaps a little soft but edgy. Was this a brighter speaker hiding in Tannoy design language? We switched to Gryphon Essence after an hour and a light bulb went on in the room. The sound blended perfectly. The Essence isn't of the older, warm chocolate Gryphon type and far more neutral than a typical 50 watt Class A. I remarked to Mike that it was a magical combo!

What I heard with the F1-12/Gryphon combo time after time was big, alive, and musical sound. Dynamics were excellent but didn't have any horn fatigue factor. Soundstage was still a bit forward, but not in a tiring fashion (like some horns). Highs were extended, but not overbearing. Bass was clearly tuned for definition than output (Wilson) but still doesn't reach the definition of a sealed box. It hit hard where it needed to though. What was fascinating is while I consider the Tannoy Westminster an "anti-hifi" speaker, I found the Fyne had some more typical hifi attributes in a positive way - think imaging, soundstage, etc. This reminded me of my former Devore Gibbon X vs Orangutan where the former is a more modern sound than the latter. I very much enjoyed the combination of traits. For the resolution fans, I didn't think it was as far off as say the Tannoy Westminster, nor fuzzy like the Gamut RS line. Very open, clear sound. Natalia LaFourcades voice really was present in the room, but without the dripping second harmonic that I often hear with SET amps. We ended with Scheherezade and Trentemoller - 2 very complex pieces in different genres. I'll note that for some reason I found them less congested, more appealing than on sealed box speakers with good flow on the Class A beast. I didn't notice a music genre preference that afternoon.

Did the Fynes quite have the soundstage of a YG that has the uncanny fabric in front of you? Not quite. Was it as refined in the highs or lows as a sealed box speaker? Not that either. But what the Fyne does extremely well is just lets you listen to engaging, dynamic sound in a relaxing fashion but still with some of that hifi goodness.

Where would I put the Fyne F1-12 in my 3 year pecking order of speaker auditions? I'd slot in in the top 3 with YG and Avantgarde. Between the 3, it really depends on your ultimate priorities. What I've learned after numerous sessions is that there is no speaker that excels at *everything*. You make your decision based on your top 3 or 4 attributes and go in that direction.

Looks like a nice speaker. I like coax speakers a lot as well but I couldn’t imagine getting everything out of them with SS...especially not at their sensitivity. It’s interesting though that the much lower power Class A amp worked a lot better than the big AB amp...

 

[PeterA]

Fyne Audio F1-12

What I heard with the F1-12/Gryphon combo time after time was big, alive, and musical sound. Dynamics were excellent but didn't have any horn fatigue factor. Soundstage was still a bit forward, but not in a tiring fashion (like some horns). Highs were extended, but not overbearing. Bass was clearly tuned for definition than output (Wilson) but still doesn't reach the definition of a sealed box. It hit hard where it needed to though. What was fascinating is while I consider the Tannoy Westminster an "anti-hifi" speaker, I found the Fyne had some more typical hifi attributes in a positive way - think imaging, soundstage, etc. This reminded me of my former Devore Gibbon X vs Orangutan where the former is a more modern sound than the latter. I very much enjoyed the combination of traits. For the resolution fans, I didn't think it was as far off as say the Tannoy Westminster, nor fuzzy like the Gamut RS line. Very open, clear sound. Natalia LaFourcades voice really was present in the room, but without the dripping second harmonic that I often hear with SET amps. We ended with Scheherezade and Trentemoller - 2 very complex pieces in different genres. I'll note that for some reason I found them less congested, more appealing than on sealed box speakers with good flow on the Class A beast. I didn't notice a music genre preference that afternoon.

Nice report Keith. Thank you. You refer a couple times to horn speakers. This Fyne is in no way a horn is it? It just seems like a very attractive concentric dynamic driver in a gorgeous cabinet with a down firing port/vent on a cone shaped base.

What amplifiers would you end up pairing with these speakers if you decide to go in this speaker direction?

 

[Al M.]

Fyne Audio F1-12

I was keen to hear these speakers after visiting my friend Jim's Tannoy Westminsters a few months ago. My friend, Mike Bovaird at Suncoast Audio, has raved about them for a year as well. My first trip during the pandemic on an airplane would bring me to see my father as well as his relatively new store. And I can also say traveling with 25% of an airplane's capacity was actually pleasant. First class on a transcon was only $150 more, direct.

Mike's store has 3 rooms (L, M, S) and the big Fyne F1-12 was setup in the M room (17' x 25' so actually more large to me). Electronics were Pass XP22/X260.8 and Gryphon Pandora/Essence with a MSB Discrete dac (I own a Premier). The speakers are gorgeous in person - as they are in pictures to most. The woodwork and finish is top notch, the overhung caps a nice touch. While the burled wood isn't my particular style, the speaker is beautiful. I also was expecting a much larger one but the sloped sides and finish draw less attention in person. The "cone" where the driver is located is neat as it's slotted in aluminum to the cabinet and covered with leather (like a SF). So the jet engine look is less in person!

We started on the Pass electronics. The sound was big and present sounding - if not a bit more forward than others I've listened to. It was easy to hear how coherent they are in 5 minutes though and I didn't notice the stilted leading edge like when I had the X350.8 on my YGs. There is something about coaxial drivers that make one relax instantly. However, after more listening the bass was a little round/indistinct, the mids a bit lacking, and the highs perhaps a little soft but edgy. Was this a brighter speaker hiding in Tannoy design language? We switched to Gryphon Essence after an hour and a light bulb went on in the room. The sound blended perfectly. The Essence isn't of the older, warm chocolate Gryphon type and far more neutral than a typical 50 watt Class A. I remarked to Mike that it was a magical combo!

What I heard with the F1-12/Gryphon combo time after time was big, alive, and musical sound. Dynamics were excellent but didn't have any horn fatigue factor. Soundstage was still a bit forward, but not in a tiring fashion (like some horns). Highs were extended, but not overbearing. Bass was clearly tuned for definition than output (Wilson) but still doesn't reach the definition of a sealed box. It hit hard where it needed to though. What was fascinating is while I consider the Tannoy Westminster an "anti-hifi" speaker, I found the Fyne had some more typical hifi attributes in a positive way - think imaging, soundstage, etc. This reminded me of my former Devore Gibbon X vs Orangutan where the former is a more modern sound than the latter. I very much enjoyed the combination of traits. For the resolution fans, I didn't think it was as far off as say the Tannoy Westminster, nor fuzzy like the Gamut RS line. Very open, clear sound. Natalia LaFourcades voice really was present in the room, but without the dripping second harmonic that I often hear with SET amps. We ended with Scheherezade and Trentemoller - 2 very complex pieces in different genres. I'll note that for some reason I found them less congested, more appealing than on sealed box speakers with good flow on the Class A beast. I didn't notice a music genre preference that afternoon.

Did the Fynes quite have the soundstage of a YG that has the uncanny fabric in front of you? Not quite. Was it as refined in the highs or lows as a sealed box speaker? Not that either. But what the Fyne does extremely well is just lets you listen to engaging, dynamic sound in a relaxing fashion but still with some of that hifi goodness.

Where would I put the Fyne F1-12 in my 3 year pecking order of speaker auditions? I'd slot in in the top 3 with YG and Avantgarde. Between the 3, it really depends on your ultimate priorities. What I've learned after numerous sessions is that there is no speaker that excels at *everything*. You make your decision based on your top 3 or 4 attributes and go in that direction.

Very vivid description, thanks, Keith!

 

[Ron Resnick]

There is something about coaxial drivers that make one relax instantly. .

Congratulations on an informative trip, and thank you for this very understandable report!

It is interesting that you provide yet another positive data point for a Gryphon amplifier.

With many things in this hobby we don't know what we don't know -- until we experience it. You have always been sensitive to driver coherence, and look for coherency as a critical attribute (Zu, now Fyne; dislike Wilson).

I never focused on driver coherency (how could I liking hybrid MartinLogans?) but hearing the concentric Tannoy I agree with you that there is something relaxing about concentric drivers. Maybe there is something relaxing about wide-band drivers generally.

Maybe audiophiles who do not consider themselves explicitly to be sensitive to driver incoherency nonetheless experience driver coherency in a positive way. Maybe complex-crossover/multi-way loudspeakers are fatiguing in some subliminal way -- which one is not aware of until one experiences the absence of it.

 

[morricab]

Congratulations on an informative trip, and thank you for this very understandable report!

It is interesting that you provide yet another positive data point for a Gryphon amplifier.

With many things in this hobby we don't know what we don't know -- until we experience it. You have always been sensitive to driver coherence, and look for coherency as a critical attribute (Zu, now Fyne; dislike Wilson).

I never focused on driver coherency (how could I liking hybrid MartinLogans?) but hearing the concentric Tannoy I agree with you that there is something relaxing about concentric drivers. Maybe there is something relaxing about wide-band drivers generally.

Maybe audiophiles who do not consider themselves explicitly to be sensitive to driver incoherency nonetheless experience driver coherency in a positive way. Maybe complex-crossover/multi-way loudspeakers are fatiguing in some subliminal way -- which one is not aware of until one experiences the absence of it.

Actually Ron, I would say you are more sensitive to coherence than maybe you realize. The range covered by the Martin Logan panel is very wide, not quite single driver but from upper bass to your limit of hearing. The Pendragons you have chosen have a planar driver that can cover from 150Hz to 18khz. Those are critical ranges (particularly the crossover between a midrange to tweeter in normal speakers) to cover and discontinuities are easily spotted.

Before finding some horns with similar coherence, I was a died-in-the-wool planar guy (Audiostatic, Infinity IRS Beta, Apogee, Acoustat, Stax, DIY hybrid) because of coherence, tone and transparency.

To get some semblance of dynamics though they have to huge and/or augmented with big bass bins.

My biggest issue with horns tends to be coherence...especially big multi-way setups. Some of the best setups I have heard are two way (three max) with either a horn running quite a wide range or augmented widebanders (Like DaveC and Audio Bill).

 

[DasguteOhr]

Before finding some horns with similar coherence, I was a died-in-the-wool planar guy (Audiostatic, Infinity IRS Beta, Apogee, Acoustat, Stax, DIY hybrid) because of coherence, tone and transparency.

Hi,
the magic of the foil speakers is that they don't have any energy storage effects. I'll link a waterfall diagram, you can see the time in milliseconds on the right.


There you can see how quickly the loudspeaker calms down after a tone. therefore you can hear the following notes of the music more precisely, nothing smeared. that's why I still consider the midrange of an esl 57 to be the best there is.
the problem is, the deeper the tones get, the more the foil has to move it needs more time to calm down, the advantage over normal cone speakers is gone.

to match the bass to the fast slide that it plays coherence, there are 2 possibilities. you switch many small for exsample (8 "cone speakers )in parallel as subwoofer.
This ensures that the cone drivers calm down quickly, that the movements are kept small by being distributed to many.
Second Way create a subwoofer that work like the foil works, a dipole or ripole bass. The advantage is that it does not have any energy storage effects because it does not have a housing that can oscillate.
A good dipole bass can calm down in 5 milliseconds.
This creates a fast, deep bass that goes very well with electrostatics.
I hope I made it clear.
In the last 10 years I have built a lot of speakers myself, some were good, the others ended up being firewood for my fireplace.
Have a nice Sunday

 

[marslo]

Stephan,
what kind of the software do you use for creating and analyzing the waterfall diagram?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Hi,

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DRA Laboratories - MLSSA Acoustical Measurement System

MLSSA by DRA Laboratories is the loudspeaker industry's standard measurement system. MLSSA is also used by automakers, recording studios, acousticians and government agencies to measure sound systems, room acoustics and speech intelligibility.

www.mlssa.com

Expensive hardware,software and microphones
I don't have my own, I can use one from a friend's, he fixes speakers and reconed speakers.

 

[marslo]

Hi Stephan,
thank you, I will also try to find a specialist to measure and analyze my room and system acoustics.
As I see MLSSA is a professional tool , I have no knowlegde in this field.

Mariusz

 

[morricab]

Hi,

Mlssa akustischen Maßsystem von DRA Laboratorien | eBay

Finden Sie Top-Angebote für Mlssa akustischen Maßsystem von DRA Laboratorien bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!

www.ebay.de

DRA Laboratories - MLSSA Acoustical Measurement System

MLSSA by DRA Laboratories is the loudspeaker industry's standard measurement system. MLSSA is also used by automakers, recording studios, acousticians and government agencies to measure sound systems, room acoustics and speech intelligibility.

www.mlssa.com

Expensive hardware,software and microphones
I don't have my own, I can use one from a friend's, he fixes speakers and reconed speakers.

I have software and a good audio card to make measurements . It can do frequency, impulse but not sure about waterfall (although if it can do impulse it can do that to I guess). Oh and it can also look at harmonic distortion.

 

[Yakamozan]

I have software and a good audio card to make measurements . It can do frequency, impulse but not sure about waterfall (although if it can do impulse it can do that to I guess). Oh and it can also look at harmonic distortion.

Beyerdynamic MM-1 + Room EQ or Audionet Carma will deliver the goods.
Get the calibration file from Beyerdynamic and you are very close to professional grade measures. Way enough for room treatment.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I have software and a good audio card to make measurements . It can do frequency, impulse but not sure about waterfall (although if it can do impulse it can do that to I guess). Oh and it can also look at harmonic distortion.

that's enough for private use, I just wanted to tell you why some work well or not. There are so many criteria phase, omnidirectional behavior, distortion and how to build xover that works well. therefore, many people buy a finished speaker and listen to music happily.
Then there are the weirdos like me who are not satisfied with anything, spend hours building and measuring until late at night. There is nothing better when it comes to music if you create something yourself that makes you happy in the end.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Beyerdynamic MM-1 + Room EQ or Audionet Carma will deliver the goods.
Get the calibration file from Beyerdynamic and you are very close to professional grade measures. Way enough for room treatment.

A Good Tablet or Phone with Audiotool App and Microphone like this
works well too. You get Calibration file from Dayton for Audiotool App.

Dayton Audio iMM-6 Kalibriertes Messmikrofon für iPhone, iPad, Tablet und Android: Amazon.de: Musikinstrumente

Dayton Audio iMM-6 Kalibriertes Messmikrofon für iPhone, iPad, Tablet und Android: Amazon.de: Musikinstrumente

www.amazon.de

Perform the measurement with pink noise or sinus tone 20hz-20khz in all directions from the listening position

 

[rbbert]

Amazon US has that microphone available from several sellers

 

[morricab]

A Good Tablet or Phone with Audiotool App and Microphone like this
works well too. You get Calibration file from Dayton for Audiotool App.

Dayton Audio iMM-6 Kalibriertes Messmikrofon für iPhone, iPad, Tablet und Android: Amazon.de: Musikinstrumente

Dayton Audio iMM-6 Kalibriertes Messmikrofon für iPhone, iPad, Tablet und Android: Amazon.de: Musikinstrumente

www.amazon.de

Perform the measurement with pink noise or sinus tone 20hz-20khz in all directions from the listening position

I also have a Behringer DEQ 2496 with calibrated microphone that’s has a nice 1/6th octave RTA and pink noise generator. This is more than enough for in room measurements to assess overall response in your listening room.

 

[KeithR]

We are approaching 3,000 posts on my thread - it's been a pleasure!

 

[Mdp632]

I enjoy reading your listening session reports.

If possible please audition and report on the upcoming Alexx V in 2021.

 

[KeithR]

Nice report Keith. Thank you. You refer a couple times to horn speakers. This Fyne is in no way a horn is it? It just seems like a very attractive concentric dynamic driver in a gorgeous cabinet with a down firing port/vent on a cone shaped base.

What amplifiers would you end up pairing with these speakers if you decide to go in this speaker direction?

The Fyne doesn't have a horn but there is quite a bit of tech in that driver and enclosure with a horn style, tractrix port. For amps, I'd look to pair Fyne with lower power Class A SS and push/pull tube. SS amps that are interesting include the 47 Labs Fudou ($10k), Valvet A4 monoblocks ($10k), or used Dartzeel 108 (Class AB, but was really good on Zu). Lavardin might be another. The Gryphon Essence ($23k) of course was fantastic for a higher tier solution. For tube I'd look to Linear Tube Audio's Ultralinear or ZOTL40 amps. The Luxman MQ-88 would be another tube option. All less than $10k.

 

[KeithR]

I enjoy reading your listening session reports.

If possible please audition and report on the upcoming Alexx V in 2021.

Well, you're in luck as my dealer is getting a pair soon

 

[KeithR]

Congratulations on an informative trip, and thank you for this very understandable report!

It is interesting that you provide yet another positive data point for a Gryphon amplifier.

Gryphon has historically been too warm and chocolately for my taste, but the new Essence seems to be a departure from that voicing and in no way analytical or fatiguing. I have heard from several people in the business that its the best sounding Gryphon now, and the least expensive.