Just When You Thought You've Seen It All

Apr 3, 2010
16,022
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Seattle, WA
#2
At first I was horrified of the thought but then I remembered how I can peel it off clearly as he did when I use it for woodworking. So other than worry of it dripping into everything else, seems like a reasonable technique.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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#3
I'd put this in the top ten stupidest things I've ever seen done in audio. One, show me the chemicals won't damage the record. Two, show me that you can remove all the glue. If it's highly unlikely that one can remove all the RCF with a machine, how the hell will you do that with glue.

Oh yes, ESP yrs ago, RCFs all had a sound, most likely to what they left behind and the ability of the machine to remove the last vestiges of the RCF. Remember that surface tension goes up as the quantity of fluid goes down, making that last little bit of liquis all the harder to suction off the LP. Today's machines like the VPI Typhoon have a bigger motor eg. more suction and you can clearly hear the difference between it and a normal machine. Of course, one still has to be careful not to have too much suction and affect the vinyl plasticizer.

Caveat emptor.
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
10,989
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38
Manila, Philippines
#4
AT least it wasn't a 6 eye :D
 

puroagave

Member Sponsor
Sep 30, 2011
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#5
we did this 20-yrs ago with product called Spraylat. its a latex based and water soluble painting mask. brush it on, dries within a hour or so and peel off. the aliphatic glues seems to work just the same except it must take way longer to dry and the force needed to peel off from an LP would concern me (fracturing really old vinyl) the spraylat worked well similar to the results in the vid. chemisty? what chemistry :) we werent that smart to worry about what it did to the vinyl, all we cared about was trying anything that raised a play grade from a VG to a VG++.

ps - at that time we also had access to the HW-17 and keith monks machines
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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#6
I wouldn't call it stupid. Adventurous? yes. Maybe someone with chemistry knowledge would chime in and tell us about the potential for harm to the vinyll .. We simply don't know. I don't think it is the same thing as a Record Cleaning Fluid .. RCF remains liquid with the impurities kept in the liquid by surface tension and if it evaporates, there remains solid residues that needs to be sucked out .. In this case I have a glue .., to which everything adheres, then when cured, seems to come out rather neatly
 
Jan 13, 2012
429
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Oslo, Norway
#7
Had to try this when I first came across it years ago. An acquaintance with a tremendous vinyl collection uses it to rescue records.
Looked into the chemistry. The wood glues are water based and the vinyl repels it. Thus the adhesive joins to itself and dust/impurities, while not being capable of joining to the vinyl. I've actually pulled off entire LP sides of glue - could probably play it, now with the dust transferred to the glue-copy.

In spite of that, I dont feel comfortable using the method, and now have an Audiodesk USC, making the point moot.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
11,221
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#10
I wouldn't call it stupid. Adventurous? yes. Maybe someone with chemistry knowledge would chime in and tell us about the potential for harm to the vinyll .. We simply don't know. I don't think it is the same thing as a Record Cleaning Fluid .. RCF remains liquid with the impurities kept in the liquid by surface tension and if it evaporates, there remains solid residues that needs to be sucked out .. In this case I have a glue .., to which everything adheres, then when cured, seems to come out rather neatly


Well Frantz, I have a little bit of chemical knowledge. Look up online my article on RCF written oh about a decade and a half ago. Still quoted.

This is good enough for me. From the website:

How is glue made?

Elmer's Glues are chemical based. They are made or formulated from chemicals which are synthesized (created by Man). These chemicals were originally obtained or manufactured from petroleum, natural gas and other raw materials found in Nature. The exact formula and specific ingredients used in making Elmer's products are considered proprietary information, therefore, we cannot share those with you.

Is Elmer's glue acid free?
No. Most of our glues that are acid free are labeled as such. Some of our most popular acid free products include all of our glue stick, rubber cement and spray adhesive products.


VINYL ACETATE HAS BEEN POLYMERIZED INDUSTRIALLY IN BULK SOLUTION, SUSPENSION, AND EMULSION. PERHAPS 90% OF THE MATERIAL IDENTIFIED AS POLY(VINYL ACETATE) OR COPOLYMERS THAT ARE PREDOMINATELY VINYL ACETATE ARE MADE BY EMULSION TECHNIQUES. THE INITIATORS OR CATALYSTS USED IN VINYL ACETATE POLYMERIZATIONS ARE THE FAMILIAR FREE-RADICAL TYPES, eg, HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, PEROXYSULFATES, BENZOYL PEROXIDE, AND REDOX COMBINATIONS BUFFERS ARE FREQUENTLY ADDED

Then can you show me that this cleaning method is safe over the long term?

Sorry, I'm not trusting my LPs to any concoction that has not been tested for its reactivity with the plasticizers. We've already had a few record Rx that negatively affected the LP such as Soundguard.
 
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FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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#11
Myles

Last time I look at Chemistry was when I was in College for my Bachelor about 30 years ago.. Still I don't see from the formulation how something like Elmer glue would harm the Vinyl in LP... While I don't have any qualm about you and other looking askance at the method, I wouldn't call it stupid. You haven't so far proved it to be so. The Titebond meets the ASTM requirements for Water Resistance and wood bonding one if its characteristics from what I read is that it must fill cracks .. Just the recipe for getting to the fine grooves on a LP and bond to the dirt .. there ... I can see the attraction and I am interested. I don't like the curing time though .. Way too long. I don't know what the acid content is and I don't know what acid and what amount of acid would do to Vinyl. You may have to educate me on the matter...
 
Jan 13, 2012
429
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Oslo, Norway
#12
Being a skeptic, I first used a record that had absolutely no sentimental value - to test the principle. I waited until the glue had gone completely translucent, and then pulled it off. The record played without noise from dust and residue in the grooves.
I then got a Miles Davis Porgy & Bess original from a garage sale that sounded as if it had entire colonies of dust and fungus in the grooves. I had only tried to play it once, and gave it up mid-first groove because it was so filled with whatever it was that induced the noise.

Here are the two "pull-offs" from that cleaning session. The record afterwards played without noise, and was shiny.
The chemistry is pretty obvious, comparable to oil and water analogies - the repellent force is due to matching polarities, and there's no way that the glue will adhere more strongly to the vinyl than to "other glue." I'm pretty certain one could have played these ... though with noise transferred from the now clean vinyl.

 
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FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,469
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#13
Being a skeptic, I first used a record that had absolutely no sentimental value - to test the principle. I waited until the glue had gone completely translucent, and then pulled it off. The record played without noise from dust and residue in the grooves.
I then got a Miles Davis Porgy & Bess original from a garage sale that sounded as if it had entire colonies of dust and fungus in the grooves. I had only tried to play it once, and gave it up mid-first groove because it was so filled with whatever it was that induced the noise.

Here are the two "pull-offs" from that cleaning session. The record afterwards played without noise, and was shiny.
The chemistry is pretty obvious, comparable to oil and water analogies - the repellent force is due to matching polarities, and there's no way that the glue will adhere more strongly to the vinyl than to "other glue." I'm pretty certain one could have played these ... though with noise transferred from the now clean vinyl.

What glue did you use? How long did it take to dry? Do you regularly treat records this way?
 

bblue

New Member
Apr 26, 2011
360
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0
San Diego, CA
#15
I love it when folks with no experience with an idea or process voice strong opinions based on ignorance.

This process works very well, though I've never seen it recommended for use with Elmer's Glue. The preferred is Titebond II wood glue. The process is the same, but it does take a few applications to get the feel of it to get the surface of the vinyl covered smoothly and without runoff. I used Freezer Paper (essentially a wax-type paper) under the record so if glue does come off the record while you're smoothing it out, it doesn't stick to anything.

It can be messy if you're not careful, and you don't have to apply it on a turntable. Once you get enough glue on the disk by applying it with the pointed dispenser, circularly around the record, I just use a plastic credit card to distribute it smoothly on the surface. The glue doesn't stick to the card, either. Just peel it off when dry.

When you do the peeling, start from the edge of the record by lifting the glue layer up and away from the vinyl. Keep the peeling large and move slowly. Avoid leaving little pieces or strips of glue on the vinyl. They're a bear to remove individually. Too thin to pull up the tiny layer afterwards.

I do reserve this step for seriously messed up records. There's no point in going through all of this process on records in good condition that you could clean normally (though it won't hurt anything unless you're sloppy with the glue). I follow this step with a standard two step Disk Doctor cleaning and rinse on an RCM. If the record is still particularly noisy after this much, an application of Last record preservative adds some lubrication that quiets 'rough groove wall' noise down a bit.

--Bill
 
Jan 13, 2012
429
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Oslo, Norway
#16
What glue did you use? How long did it take to dry? Do you regularly treat records this way?
I used standard water baser wood glue. Called Casco here in Europe. It comes off in one piece. Just wait until it has dried - you'll know because it becomes transparent. Goes white again as you peel it off. Gives a total deep clean.
 
#17
This is the best album cleaning method so far; thanx Steve for sharing! :b

And like Bill just said above; it is perfect for your less than perfect vinyls.

It is amazing what simple and logical things of life can do to improve the Sound! :b

And Myles, again, you can say whatever ... :D
 

MylesBAstor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,221
0
0
#18
This is the best album cleaning method so far; thanx Steve for sharing! :b

And like Bill just said above; it is perfect for your less than perfect vinyls.

It is amazing what simple and logical things of life can do to improve the Sound! :b

And Myles, again, you can say whatever ... :D
Your records. Are they replaceable? Caveat emptor. Much rather use a RCM with the new enzyme based cleaners. Far better solution. If you want to remove schmutz, go buy a DAK brush. They even furnish SEM photographs to show that their brush removes dirt from the grooves.
 

cjfrbw

Active Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,145
1
38
Pleasanton, CA
#19
My wife does this to her face all the time, but her's is green/blue colored. She definitely does not sound better afterward.
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
#20
Steve, this is one of the "old school" tricks for the poor man to get their vinyl clean. I haven't tried it myself, so I can not comment directly on how this works but I have had many a conversation with those who do not own an LP cleaning machine and would like to listen to an album with a lot of added noise to the substrate of the LP itself. Other than the *possible* chemical reaction that may occur, most users of this method say that it works well and makes an un-listenable LP, well...listenable. For those without any sort of cleaning method or income that doesn't match what tools are needed for a *proper* cleaning, this method is right up their alley.

That said, I would never attempt to do this on my LP player as pictured in the video. Many of the folks I have corresponded with that do this either have a lazy-susan or a spare "junk" TT to apply the glue on the LP itself. Oh, one more thing. I have yet to hear of anybody who used this method of cleaning LP's do a comparison between this and the LP cleaning machine. Seems that once the LP cleaning machine is purchased, nobody [that I can recall] has chimed in to offer any feedback. Back when I got more serious about vinyl, I was going to try it but I ended up going to the Hi-Fi store in town and getting a dual sided 25th anniversary Nitty Gritty RCM instead. Been using it, along with steam cleaning with distilled ever since.
 

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