It Was Inevitable…

[DaveC]

Even better is to find used Goertz silver foil cables ...very transparent ICs with great resolution and soundstage...bass is pretty awesome too.

I agree Goertz can sound very good but I believe they use a stacked and twisted geometrical arrangement that's relatively high in capacitance.

There is a UPOCC silver version of the NEMOI cables though, and I also make a similar cable out of UPOCC silver ribbon that uses about 4x more silver vs NEMOI for a fuller -bodied sound.

I think silver is defeating the purpose of initially going with reasonably affordable cables before auditioning more expensive cables, but OTOH UPOCC silver will "get out of the way" moreso vs any other cable, IME.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I agree Goertz can sound very good but I believe they use a stacked and twisted geometrical arrangement that's relatively high in capacitance.

There is a UPOCC silver version of the NEMOI cables though, and I also make a similar cable out of UPOCC silver ribbon that uses about 4x more silver vs NEMOI for a fuller -bodied sound.

I think silver is defeating the purpose of initially going with reasonably affordable cables before auditioning more expensive cables, but OTOH UPOCC silver will "get out of the way" moreso vs any other cable, IME.

I can’t afford unobtanium but I am using all silver upocc Neotech I bought in off the reel in one system and a signal loom of all Wireworld platinum eclipse upocc silver in the other. In the Neotech loom I now have a 12 metre upocc silver Neotech run as ICs and also with the heavier gauge silver Nemos used as hook up cable for my horns. As a cable I find these to have an extraordinarily open, immediate quality that seems to get out of the way and allow through and easily follow the flow of sound and music seemingly unimpeded. The cables bring through moments of realness in nature that match with the very immediate nature (in a system approach) with both horns and SET.

Going to a 12 metre run of Neotech upocc silver in single ended ICs seems to have very little if any sense of loss when used in the longer run and I had swapped these in to replace a 1.5 metre ICs run. I thought there’d be some loss but the low capacitance geometry seemed to really not be challenged at all by the longer distance. I’ve trialled using the upocc silver cores in the Nemos 1080 run as 14 awg and also as biwire run at 11 awg for speaker. That characteristic quicksilver upocc silver nature comes through in each usage.

The rectangular geometry in the Nemos is a bit trickier to work with in bare ending and terminating and kindly a mate who has a lot of experience in making up cables did it for me and also went with WBT silver connectors. The Neotech cable itself is beautifully constructed. I thought about using the Neotech copper Nemos for the open baffle subs I’m working on but have enough of the upocc silver Nemos here to wire them with that so may stay all upocc silver all the way through.

The Neotech upocc silver easily compares similarly in nature and the sense of transparency to the Wireworld platinum eclipse upocc silver cables that I have… and there would reasonably be correlations since neotech provides the core wire used in Wireworld platinum and also provides it to quite a few other companies.

In some ways I think they might even just eclipse (apologies in advance) the Wireworlds… but very similar in that inherent sense of extraordinary ease and open naturalness that top end upocc silver can have when used throughout as the signal cables in a system.

If you build the balance of your system around your particular choice of good metals I’ve found it’s possible to get great balance with either silver or copper. The low capacitance Neotech upocc copper would be the way I’d very likely now trial if I was going with copper. The best implementations of both metals can sound very natural and true, but the sense of immediacy that can bring through moments of realness is a special ingredient that I’ve found that can more essentially come through with upocc silver. With regards to top flight store bought unobtanium I leave that to others far better equipped to call

 

[thedudeabides]

It's like bizarro-land in here sometimes. The least people can do is have some respect for others...

It is indeed. Too much for my blood regarding hypocrisy, personal insults, etc. from people that should know better.

 

[ddk]

It took me a while but I finally found them!! I sourced ultra rare bullshitium from a small mining colony on Rigel 7 and custom fabricated them into audio cables using specially modified Furutech CF-102 NCF RCA connectors (coated with proprietary bee pollen) . They are far better than anything you have ever heard, Some have even said they are so unique, they have no sound at all. Available in limited quantities. $100K per 1.5 m pair. Please allow 864.3 light years for delivery (unfortunately, Rigel is much further away than China). I am currently in discussions with Nordost for distribution here on earth.

View attachment 81583

You didn't need to go to Rigel, Bullshitium is abundant domestically these days!

david

 

[ddk]

We have been told by dealers and reviewers that cables are components. A cable manufacturer has now stated that cables can be more difficult to design than amplifiers and speakers.

It's all relative to the quality of the design and execution Peter!

I don’t know what to make of these comments but perhaps these new cables are appropriately priced. I suspect other cable manufacturers are taking note.

You already have experience with handmade wires from the custom cable company I introduced you to, you also know the quality and what they charge, draw your own conclusions.

david

Edit- Cost isn't the only indicator and argument that people with very expensive systems shouldn't complain about high priced cables is moot and IMO ignorant. It's a question of value, a $100k component can be great value considering it can be used and enjoyed for decades while a $500 one a total rip off specially ones that are easy to assemble with built-in obsolescence like cables. Often the wire manufacturer replaces their tooling or changes formulation after a couple of years so the cable assembler and by extension their "high-end customer" is stuck the so called latest and greatest. Value is always my pet peeve in high end and not all cable manufacturers subscribe to this or the latest fashion model, they have products that remain valid over decades too.

 

[morricab]

I agree Goertz can sound very good but I believe they use a stacked and twisted geometrical arrangement that's relatively high in capacitance.

There is a UPOCC silver version of the NEMOI cables though, and I also make a similar cable out of UPOCC silver ribbon that uses about 4x more silver vs NEMOI for a fuller -bodied sound.

I think silver is defeating the purpose of initially going with reasonably affordable cables before auditioning more expensive cables, but OTOH UPOCC silver will "get out of the way" moreso vs any other cable, IME.

The top silver interconnects were not twisted. The capacitance is high but the inductance is extremely low, which is good for high frequency transmission. The last retail price from a few years ago was around $600 for a meter pair...pretty reasonable...

 

[morricab]

I can’t afford unobtanium but I am using all silver upocc Neotech I bought in off the reel in one system and a signal loom of all Wireworld platinum eclipse upocc silver in the other. In the Neotech loom I now have a 12 metre upocc silver Neotech run as ICs and also with the heavier gauge silver Nemos used as hook up cable for my horns. As a cable I find these to have an extraordinarily open, immediate quality that seems to get out of the way and allow through and easily follow the flow of sound and music seemingly unimpeded. The cables bring through moments of realness in nature that match with the very immediate nature (in a system approach) with both horns and SET.

Going to a 12 metre run of Neotech upocc silver in single ended ICs seems to have very little if any sense of loss when used in the longer run and I had swapped these in to replace a 1.5 metre ICs run. I thought there’d be some loss but the low capacitance geometry seemed to really not be challenged at all by the longer distance. I’ve trialled using the upocc silver cores in the Nemos 1080 run as 14 awg and also as biwire run at 11 awg for speaker. That characteristic quicksilver upocc silver nature comes through in each usage.

The rectangular geometry in the Nemos is a bit trickier to work with in bare ending and terminating and kindly a mate who has a lot of experience in making up cables did it for me and also went with WBT silver connectors. The Neotech cable itself is beautifully constructed. I thought about using the Neotech copper Nemos for the open baffle subs I’m working on but have enough of the upocc silver Nemos here to wire them with that so may stay all upocc silver all the way through.

The Neotech upocc silver easily compares similarly in nature and the sense of transparency to the Wireworld platinum eclipse upocc silver cables that I have… and there would reasonably be correlations since neotech provides the core wire used in Wireworld platinum and also provides it to quite a few other companies.

In some ways I think they might even just eclipse (apologies in advance) the Wireworlds… but very similar in that inherent sense of extraordinary ease and open naturalness that top end upocc silver can have when used throughout as the signal cables in a system.

If you build the balance of your system around your particular choice of good metals I’ve found it’s possible to get great balance with either silver or copper. The low capacitance Neotech upocc copper would be the way I’d very likely now trial if I was going with copper. The best implementations of both metals can sound very natural and true, but the sense of immediacy that can bring through moments of realness is a special ingredient that I’ve found that can more essentially come through with upocc silver. With regards to top flight store bought unobtanium I leave that to others far better equipped to call

Give silver foil a try...tricky to build but better HF quality and soundstage resolution than wire based cables...make sure you put them close together to keep the inductance low! Mundorf sells a nice foil...

Another thing that works very well is very thin silver wire. Thin wire gives better HF quality as well than typical wire gauges used. For interconnects I mean...not speaker cables. When it is primarily voltage being conducted then thinner is a winner!

 

[the sound of Tao]

Give silver foil a try...tricky to build but better HF quality and soundstage resolution than wire based cables...make sure you put them close together to keep the inductance low! Mundorf sells a nice foil...

Another thing that works very well is very thin silver wire. Thin wire gives better HF quality as well than typical wire gauges used. For interconnects I mean...not speaker cables. When it is primarily voltage being conducted then thinner is a winner!

While I haven’t been crazily trialling all the potential different cable approaches but silver foils are one of cables I have trialled. I initially got in a set of foils when I first put together the Pap trio horns. I quite like them but the Wireworld platinum eclipse in comparison had a more natural perspective and overall better and fuller balance and just have a rightness to them. I’ve since bought the neotech upocc in and have gone over to using the Nemos rectangular core upocc geometry and now will stay just with that. Its every bit as good and shares that essential rightness. It’s simple and not too ott audio jewellery and I’m settled now that it’s working ideally in my setup at any rate and this new loom will last me. My exploration now has shifted over to the open baffle subs to go with the big horns. I suppose I could just re-use the silver foils I had as hook up in the trios for the subs though… will give them a run as they are already the right length. My days of having heaps of extra gear are drawing nearer to a close as I aim to get myself down to something of a more manageable scale. I’m in a general move to get myself into a bit more of a compact framework of life for the next phase.

 

[Solypsa]

“Now, with the Odin Gold Loudspeaker, Nordost has developed an innovative termination process that eases the transition from cable
to connector over several stages. This process minimizes the conversion points of conductors, eliminating overcrowding and creating orderly and precise connection points with the connectors. By decreasing the impedance introduced in standard termination practices, this innovative technique allows perfect mass- matching to occur between the conductor and connector. The methodical and natural transition contributes to the smooth auditory experience only available with Nordost’s Odin Gold cables.
“

Nordost | HI-FI Audio Cables

Nordost, manufacturer of high technology cables including speaker / video cables and analog and digital interconnects. Brand names include the Supreme Reference Odin, Reference Valhalla and Tyr and others including Norse, Flatline and Sort Systems

www.nordost.com

Aside from the marketing-speak, anyone know what the impedance reduction amount is? Seems like a misstep to introduce a tangible element into a purely subjective argument...

 

[pjwd]

Nemos rectangular core upocc geometry

I like the look of those cables ... as someone who has used foils for years, they looled like a good alternative in a more manageble format.
I suspect they would be good with bocchino connectors.
I was trying to get the sahara itx but no one sells it off the reel as far as I can see. They threw the kitchen sink at the geometrics on that model
I might have to try some of the nemos.
Thanks for the heads up
Phil

 

[DaveC]

I can’t afford unobtanium but I am using all silver upocc Neotech I bought in off the reel in one system and a signal loom of all Wireworld platinum eclipse upocc silver in the other. In the Neotech loom I now have a 12 metre upocc silver Neotech run as ICs and also with the heavier gauge silver Nemos used as hook up cable for my horns. As a cable I find these to have an extraordinarily open, immediate quality that seems to get out of the way and allow through and easily follow the flow of sound and music seemingly unimpeded. The cables bring through moments of realness in nature that match with the very immediate nature (in a system approach) with both horns and SET.

Going to a 12 metre run of Neotech upocc silver in single ended ICs seems to have very little if any sense of loss when used in the longer run and I had swapped these in to replace a 1.5 metre ICs run. I thought there’d be some loss but the low capacitance geometry seemed to really not be challenged at all by the longer distance. I’ve trialled using the upocc silver cores in the Nemos 1080 run as 14 awg and also as biwire run at 11 awg for speaker. That characteristic quicksilver upocc silver nature comes through in each usage.

The rectangular geometry in the Nemos is a bit trickier to work with in bare ending and terminating and kindly a mate who has a lot of experience in making up cables did it for me and also went with WBT silver connectors. The Neotech cable itself is beautifully constructed. I thought about using the Neotech copper Nemos for the open baffle subs I’m working on but have enough of the upocc silver Nemos here to wire them with that so may stay all upocc silver all the way through.

The Neotech upocc silver easily compares similarly in nature and the sense of transparency to the Wireworld platinum eclipse upocc silver cables that I have… and there would reasonably be correlations since neotech provides the core wire used in Wireworld platinum and also provides it to quite a few other companies.

In some ways I think they might even just eclipse (apologies in advance) the Wireworlds… but very similar in that inherent sense of extraordinary ease and open naturalness that top end upocc silver can have when used throughout as the signal cables in a system.

If you build the balance of your system around your particular choice of good metals I’ve found it’s possible to get great balance with either silver or copper. The low capacitance Neotech upocc copper would be the way I’d very likely now trial if I was going with copper. The best implementations of both metals can sound very natural and true, but the sense of immediacy that can bring through moments of realness is a special ingredient that I’ve found that can more essentially come through with upocc silver. With regards to top flight store bought unobtanium I leave that to others far better equipped to call

Good to hear, I think the NEMOS cable is excellent and I had Neotech make me similar ribbon wire I use in my own cables. You are lucky you found someone willing to terminate your cable, I spend hours and hours carefully stripping teflon off of those wires!

For subwoofers I started offering a cable based on the US mil-spec silver-plated copper / teflon wire using a 4-strand braid. This will give you similar performance at MUCH lower prices, and since it's a sub you don't have to worry about the fact silver-plated wire can sound splashy or unrefined at high frequencies.

As far as copper vs silver, you can't get the same resolution, timbre or dynamics with copper. The only exception I've heard so far is Jorma, but they cost more than UPOCC silver anyways! So you can get some great copper cables but honestly IDK what exactly Jorma does to achieve this, I suspect it's a litz type wire treated with high voltages using a Tesla coil but I haven't experimented with that yet so that is mostly speculation.

Honestly there aren't massive differences between Neotech NEMOS, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse and my own ribbon cables. All very similar... I do put A LOT of effort into my jackets and terminations though, which does help.

 

[DaveC]

I like the look of those cables ... as someone who has used foils for years, they looled like a good alternative in a more manageble format.
I suspect they would be good with bocchino connectors.
I was trying to get the sahara itx but no one sells it off the reel as far as I can see. They threw the kitchen sink at the geometrics on that model
I might have to try some of the nemos.
Thanks for the heads up
Phil

Foil can sound nice but I find it creates larger-than-life images with no "air" in a lot of systems and has an overly polished sound.

The other major issue with it is it's unwieldy and difficult to insulate and prevent corrosion, and it's difficult to make a cable that can bend without putting too much stress on some part of the cable... I had a customer that had some foil cables he sent me to repair, 1st it was a broken solder joint in a connector, then a few months later a ripped jacket on the interior of the cable causing intermittent shorts. So for this reason I never considered foil but the ribbon wire avoids these issues.

I'm a little divided on the Sahara and Everest cables, they take a ribbon and spiral it around a teflon tube, effectively making it much, much longer. OTOH, Neotech has made top end cables for dozens of cable co's, they are true experts on the subject. Personally, I really like the electrical characteristics that can be achieved with the regular ribbon wire and it doesn't require nearly as much silver for the same resistance.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I like the look of those cables ... as someone who has used foils for years, they looled like a good alternative in a more manageble format.
I suspect they would be good with bocchino connectors.
I was trying to get the sahara itx but no one sells it off the reel as far as I can see. They threw the kitchen sink at the geometrics on that model
I might have to try some of the nemos.
Thanks for the heads up
Phil

I figure that it’s about the quality of their wire, the geometry and connectors. Mr Bocchinno is just up north of here on the other side of the border in Queensland but is unfortunately unobtanium here as well.

The Nemos is manageable and the company is well established and I’m completely happy with it. I like a middle place with cables, good solid engineering and quality without the bling, not inexpensive but not excessive and then as DIY still affordable/viable. I’ve now used the 8 core 1080 Nemos as a 17 awg dual IC running in one cable and I am finding that works really well… bit surprised as was originally just a bit of an out of the square trial and has now turned out great. That is what I’m now running as the 12 metre interconnects as 17awg… which is the same as the Wireworld platinum gauge for ICs.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Good to hear, I think the NEMOS cable is excellent and I had Neotech make me similar ribbon wire I use in my own cables. You are lucky you found someone willing to terminate your cable, I spend hours and hours carefully stripping teflon off of those wires!

For subwoofers I started offering a cable based on the US mil-spec silver-plated copper / teflon wire using a 4-strand braid. This will give you similar performance at MUCH lower prices, and since it's a sub you don't have to worry about the fact silver-plated wire can sound splashy or unrefined at high frequencies.

As far as copper vs silver, you can't get the same resolution, timbre or dynamics with copper. The only exception I've heard so far is Jorma, but they cost more than UPOCC silver anyways! So you can get some great copper cables but honestly IDK what exactly Jorma does to achieve this, I suspect it's a litz type wire treated with high voltages using a Tesla coil but I haven't experimented with that yet so that is mostly speculation.

Honestly there aren't massive differences between Neotech NEMOS, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse and my own ribbon cables. All very similar... I do put A LOT of effort into my jackets and terminations though, which does help.

I can attest completely Dave how much time goes into terminating these. I wouldn’t have done it anywhere near as well. My audio mate is very supportive, kind and patient with me bouncing my ideas off him and also we catch up regularly (till lockdown that was) for coffee, pinball, music and the occasional soldering session

I’m going to eventually take my OB subs down to his place when done to play with his horns as well. The advantage of OB and modular speaker builds.

 

[dcathro]

I'm not sure you can separate the two... Luxury is something you buy into, it has a story associated with it that hooks the buyer. Every single piece of high end audio gear has a fancy brochure promoting the brand and it's story just as much as the product, and the info on why the product is so great is part of the story. Anyone who buys in will believe the info offered is appropriate, whether you might call it transparent and detailed or not.

In this way luxury is by it's nature a niche experience, companies operating in a luxury market are not out for mass appeal, the business model is to appeal to a relatively narrow slice of the potential market. This also offers the buyer exclusivity.

A good example of this is designer fashion vs say, The Gap. Designers who make seasonal collections with exclusive, never-to-be-made-again pieces of clothing that a vast majority of people may consider weird or ugly are obviously not going for broad appeal. The Gap is going for a much wider slice of the pie.

So for you and many like you, you are correct... but there are a multitude of different markets and I am sure you're not correct about glossy brochures and high prices attracting buyers in many other cultures, in fact I'd go so far as to say in some places if you don't have glossy brochures and high prices you are handicapping yourself and dooming yourself to failure.

Some companies appeal to your "transparent, detailed info" niche by trying to offer that... I do, I am upfront and honest about what I use in my cables and I don't use look-alike or fake parts. But within that niche is the niche that also wants to get the best value for the money on a top-of-the-line product. I offer that. Others who want a top of the line product may prefer to buy from a dealer-sold brand like Nordost that offers an in-person buying experience, glossy brochures with a ton of expense paid to industrial design, packaging, advertising and reviews and dealer support. Then there are other niches in between the two, for folks who think my cables are too cheap and Nordost is too expensive, they want to spend somewhere in-between. Lots of choices for them too.

This is why I find the condemnation of Nordost for their high pricing naïve and misguided. Nordost HAS to do this to be taken seriously as the big cheese of the cable world. Boulder Amplfier HAD to make a set of monoblocks that cost as much as the average home. AER HAD to charge $40k+ for their new uber-drivers. It's who they are in the market, if they didn't do that they wouldn't be seen as the Mercedes S-Class of audio by people who they'd like to sell their products to.

Firstly, let me say that I have always disliked Nordost cables, but that is a personal choice. I also lost all respect for a reviewer who wrote the most outrageous reviews for their cables, only to become their marketing manager shortly after.

However, I think you have hit the nail on the head Dave. Nordost is a marketing driven company who understands their market extremely well.

If Nordost were to market this cable at some sensible cost/price ratio it could damage their brand. Their customers are unlikely to consider a cable that is significantly cheaper than the one they already have. To some extent we are all fools to the concept of progress, that someone has driven the state of the art forward and that this improvement will cost more.

You are also correct that the same issue it there in every other facet of the industry, it is just that we perceive a circuit board in a box to be of more substance than wire.

 

[dcathro]

People like to say 10% better 100% more expensive. The same is true for audio equipment.

Today I listened to Odin Gold speaker and interconnect cables in dealer showroom, took home a power cable to replace the Odin 2 in my Constellation Altair II preamp. Oh, the improvement is not subtle.

As expected, Odin Gold has a warmer sound. Gold plate usually gives warmer sound. The imaging and dynamics are also significantly improved. I would say Odin Gold enhances the well known advantages of Odin 2 and corrects its short coming. The overall result is very pleasing.

It is at least 20-30% better than Odin 2. The purchase price is around 40% more expensive. I think it is reasonable. I plan to replace most of my Odin 2 cables with Gold in the near future.

Hi TLi,

Congratulations on your new cables and the improvements the have brought!

When considering new cables, did you try many different cables from different dealers, or do you have a relationship with a trusted dealer whose advice you respect?

Before you tried the Odin Gold, were you aware that your Odin 2 cables had short comings?

Thanks

David

 

[TLi]

Hi TLi,

Congratulations on your new cables and the improvements the have brought!

When considering new cables, did you try many different cables from different dealers, or do you have a relationship with a trusted dealer whose advice you respect?

Before you tried the Odin Gold, were you aware that your Odin 2 cables had short comings?

Thanks

David

Before the damned COVID, audiophiles in Hong Kong regular met and played with various ideas. Hong Kong is a small enough place for everyone who wants to participate to come and join the gatherings. Cables comparison is frequently held as it is very easy to carry different cables together in one place and try different combination. Dealers here are fairly willing to lend out testers to potential buyers for home audition.

In my place and others, I auditioned the difference between Odin, Odin 2, Siltech Triple crowns, Taralabs GME and some others. So I have a fairly good idea of the sonic character of different brands. Odin 2 can sound harsh in some systems. It is due to the resolving power. The deficiency of the system is expressed out. I used to say Odin 2 only sound best in the best system. This point is well understood.

Next week despite the pandemics, we have arrange a direct shootout between Odin Gold and CrystalConnect Da Vinci, probably the best two cable series currently in the market. The result will posted in WBF.

 

[dcathro]

Before the damned COVID, audiophiles in Hong Kong regular met and played with various ideas. Hong Kong is a small enough place for everyone who wants to participate to come and join the gatherings. Cables comparison is frequently held as it is very easy to carry different cables together in one place and try different combination. Dealers here are fairly willing to lend out testers to potential buyers for home audition.

In my place and others, I auditioned the difference between Odin, Odin 2, Siltech Triple crowns, Taralabs GME and some others. So I have a fairly good idea of the sonic character of different brands. Odin 2 can sound harsh in some systems. It is due to the resolving power. The deficiency of the system is expressed out. I used to say Odin 2 only sound best in the best system. This point is well understood.

Next week despite the pandemics, we have arrange a direct shootout between Odin Gold and CrystalConnect Da Vinci, probably the best two cable series currently in the market. The result will posted in WBF.

Thank you!

I cannot really legitimately comment further, as I inhabit a different universe - your speaker cables probably cost more than my whole system.

If I ever get to Honk Kong, I would love to hear your system.

 

[Nascimento]

I find the Odin to be very bright and edgy. I have not heard their latest gold units; but I'm excited to hear the platinum, diamond or uranium ones they are probably working on.

I'm 64 years old, 40 years old dedicated to noisy aviation, when I put an Odin power cable (Bright and Nervous) in my system, my ears didn't give me peace until I hit the buy hammer! I don't care what they use to make the cable, what I care about is that my ears have rejuvenated few years, unfortunately I don't have the money to get to know the new Nordost products!
I'm going deaf, maybe!