Is Your Loudspeaker Perfect For You?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Every pair of speakers I’ve owned starting with the AR2a’s I’ve been happy with and I’d say perfection is an intellectual construct that is unobtainable. I’ve enjoyed the journey to where I am today and have no upgrade plans. (never say never). At 15 years old when I got into this hobby I never thought I‘d own the quality of sound that I have now. Feeling so fortunate to be where I am.
No, not quite there yet, but these last few years I've been focussing more on getting the basic, physical outlines of a speaker system in place; as in prodigious displacement area top to bottom, high efficiency, relatively unrestricted frequency range (i.e.: honest ~20-18kHz) with full tilt capabilities in the lower range as well, outboard active configuration with digital XO/DSP, plenty of headroom for any SPL requirement, fairly uniform dispersion patterns at the crossovers, proper physical height of the main speakers, etc. What I do have now achieves mentioned parameters rather well though, and the way they've been implemented so far I'm enjoying their sound very much. Indeed whatever sonic limitations there are has less to do with my current speaker setup than how it's implemented.
What continues now therefore is a further refinement from that physical framework, and that could involve a restructuring to digital amplification for a simpler hardware implementation and overall signal path (with a digital source only), while also incorporating a FIR-based (IIR filtration presently) digital crossover as well as digital room correction in both the amplitude and time domain down the line - when the technology has matured just a wee bit more. Also a few replacements in the speaker system could be implemented eventually, such as - possibly - a horn-loaded midbass to lower midrange section and a likely Synergy horn on top. My tapped horn subs should remain in place.
Whatever hardware is intended to be replaced must be made "making sense of the madness," as they say.
Yes. Speakers are a potential only, and getting all the intertwined parameters in place here in conjunction with the acoustics, electronics and one's ears is not an easy task. It seems though that technology in the shape of digital tools are coming more and more to our aid, although I'd caution against their over-use so not to place too heavy a burden digitally of what should have been done more predominantly physically and acoustically in the first place.
Approximating the "perfect" speaker, as I see it, is with the outset of a proper physical framework of a speaker that's in further need of careful implementation acoustically, electronically and to our ears. Buying pre-configured, passive speakers believing they're perfect in themselves would depend on a plethora of factors falling into place, that hardly can.
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I look forward to watching you build this...I am not sure if you have set up a thread for this...but would definitely read it if you do/did.
No build thread yet, but I guess such could surface eventually. As I said, the basic setup framework I got already, and it's very satisfying as is. I'm sure many an audiophile would scoff at industrial looking, actively configured cinema speakers, studio amps and behemoth sized tapped horn subs (i.e.: 20 cubic feet per cab), but to mind and ears there IS actually some sense to the madness here.
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Thank you. Actually, I dont think it's crazy at all. In fact, it looks extremely practical...high sensitivity, a very efficient footprint...takes advantage of the height in a room to create more cubic volume and presumably more air displacement with dual-large-cones and a very large horn.
Looking forward to seeing how you make an even greater 'flagship' next! While I truly admire great-scale of the Avantgarde Trios, Acapella Sphaerons and the Vox Olympia (these last 2 by reputation not having heard them myself)...the challenge is their physical size is just prohibitive.
One of the many reasons why I admire the work that David Wilson and now his son Daryl carries forward...extremely manageable footprint, a size that maximizes height without encroaching on any ceiling...and then designed to be adjustable within many rooms to get back to the sound character one is pursuing. But more germane to this discussion, your design maxes out a volumetric space in a way that I admit is very very intriguing. I like what I have read about Destination Audio's speakers for similar reasons.
I’m using a single JTR-S1 18in sub in my system and it works very good in my system. We had it calibrated using REW and it’s a seamless transition between my mains and the JTR. I have considered getting another one but after the calibration it disappears and can get down to gut wrenching lows.
Yes. YG Sonja XV2 with Boulder 3060 amp, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 speaker cables. Great for hours and hours, never any fatigue yet amazing clarity and power, with any music
Since I partially designed and built my DIY horn speakers any claim to perfection would be brazen self aggrandizement . I will say that after over half a century of pursuing great sound and owning a plethora of different speakers of many different types my present speakers are the best I've heard in my home. Also my room is too narrow for me to really know my speakers at their best. I have tentative plans for a construction project to widen the room by five feet. Perhaps then I will know if my speakers are perfect for me.
Not perfect because I’m currently looking for new - or maybe better put, an extra pair of speakers
I have Klipsch Cornwalls IV and really like their sonic “euphonic” signature. Also very good at low volume listening.
I agree that speakers are very difficult to choose, mostly because there are so many options out there. And also because they are the most important element in the hifi chain.
ofcourse it’s always a compromise. Every good speaker has something unique. Some more than others.
few days ago I could listen to a pair of ATC SCM 50’s and boy can they play neutral, loud and undistorted totally different from my KLIPSCH.
In an ideal world I guess I would have 10 pair of speakers a few horn speakers, few planars…. Dipoles, …
on the other hand. I think I have listened to around 5 different speakers in the past few weeks ( ATC, Boenicke, Diptyque, Wilson, Harbeth ) and at the end of the day my view is : that all these speakers do some things better than the Cornwalls ( except the Wilsons - I hated those ) but overall none of those speakers - for me - are better than the KLIPSCH while costing up to 4 times more.
so maybe yes, if I can only have one pair, I think for me I have my ideal - albeit not perfect - speaker.
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No speakers are perfect because human is never really happy with what he owns physicaly no matter what you say. I am presently very happy with my Horning Agalme and I think that is my end of the road. They represent what I am asking from speakers in home enviroment. But you know what there is always some thought deep in my head could there be some better speaker upthere? Then I answer to myself sure there is.
A word of caution regarding ATC 50 Actives. These are designed specifically for pro studio use and not for domestic listening, despite some versions having aesthetically improved enclosures compared with the standard studio version.
I'd be hankering for a pair of these speakers for years and when some came up (directly from ATC), I bought them. However at home they were far too "in-yer-face" for comfortable listening, Accuracy is not necessarily the most important feature of good domestic speakers, though essential in the studio.
I once read in a pro audio mag an article by a professional mastering engineer who was explaining the difference between ideal studio monitor speakers and ideal domestic ones. He said that studio monitors were "designed to sound bad" while the domestic speakers were designed to sound good. How crazy I thought!
He went on to elaborate. The mastering engineer starts with raw recordings - warts and all. His job is to identify the warts and do whatever he can to mitigate or eliminate them. He therefore needs a speaker that shouts these deficiencies at him. If he does his job well, the final master material goes to the streaming houses and CD and vinyl pressers who sell the mastered material to us - the great unwashed audiophile public!
Now when we play these masters, the last things we want to hear are the remaining imperfections that the engineer had greatest difficulty fixing. We want to be enthralled by the music - the engineer doesn't. That's why we don't need 100% flat frequency responses or the other features of the studio monitor.
After reading their exceptional review in Stereophile (and their choice as Speaker of the Year), I sold the ATCs and bought Avantgarde horn speakers. What a relief and now using bigger and newer AGs
I have been listening to a pair of Legato Unum SE speakers and I must admit they are pretty awesome. I had never been a big fan of 2 way speakers in the past. These have changed my mind.
I'm a home theater guy so my audio equipment gets far more use reproducing movie soundtracks than music, although I do occasionally listen to music too. That said, are my speakers perfect for me?
My HT has four Paradigm Signature S8 tower speakers, their C5 center channel speaker, an old Definitive Tech ProCenter 2000 as a surround back, and six Monitor Audio C265-IDC's in the ceiling (Atmos). Two custom Funk Audio subwoofers, a dual 18" and a quad 18", carry the sonic load below 80 Hz. Since room acoustics are important to sound quality, I have 2" thick acoustic absorbers at first reflection points. I use a Trinnov Altitude for room correction, setting up my "house curve", and presets to help compensate for movies or music where the bass response is lacking. (Many movie soundtracks are neutered below 30 Hz or so.)
So how does it sound? I'm not one for flowery prose, but I believe "accurate" is the best descriptor. I'm partial to charts, so here's the frequency response at my listening position -
The acousticians at Harmon have studied what sort of FR curve sounds natural in a room, and this is what they came up with -
I tune my house curve by listening to music, and Harmon's curve with its bass emphasis & a rolled-off high end is what also sounds good to me. I'm very happy with the sound of my system. I enjoy being able to listen to Atmos music and also upmix stereo music to utilize my surround & ceiling speakers (Dolby Surround Upmixer (DSU), Auro-3D). If my speakers have room for improvement, I would say that it lies in their aesthetics rather than their sound quality. A beautiful walnut burl or pepperwood burl veneer with a piano gloss finish would suite me better than the cherry that Paradigm used. It's not a big concern however since for my home theater usage the lights are off & I drape black velvet over the front speakers to eliminate reflections from reaching the screen. That's about it...
https://hometheaterreview.com/paradigm-reference-signature-s8-v3-loudspeakers-reviewed/
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/paradigm-reference-signature-s8-loudspeaker/
My HT has four Paradigm Signature S8 tower speakers, their C5 center channel speaker, an old Definitive Tech ProCenter 2000 as a surround back, and six Monitor Audio C265-IDC's in the ceiling (Atmos). Two custom Funk Audio subwoofers, a dual 18" and a quad 18", carry the sonic load below 80 Hz. Since room acoustics are important to sound quality, I have 2" thick acoustic absorbers at first reflection points. I use a Trinnov Altitude for room correction, setting up my "house curve", and presets to help compensate for movies or music where the bass response is lacking. (Many movie soundtracks are neutered below 30 Hz or so.)
So how does it sound? I'm not one for flowery prose, but I believe "accurate" is the best descriptor. I'm partial to charts, so here's the frequency response at my listening position -
The acousticians at Harmon have studied what sort of FR curve sounds natural in a room, and this is what they came up with -
I tune my house curve by listening to music, and Harmon's curve with its bass emphasis & a rolled-off high end is what also sounds good to me. I'm very happy with the sound of my system. I enjoy being able to listen to Atmos music and also upmix stereo music to utilize my surround & ceiling speakers (Dolby Surround Upmixer (DSU), Auro-3D). If my speakers have room for improvement, I would say that it lies in their aesthetics rather than their sound quality. A beautiful walnut burl or pepperwood burl veneer with a piano gloss finish would suite me better than the cherry that Paradigm used. It's not a big concern however since for my home theater usage the lights are off & I drape black velvet over the front speakers to eliminate reflections from reaching the screen. That's about it...
https://hometheaterreview.com/paradigm-reference-signature-s8-v3-loudspeakers-reviewed/
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/paradigm-reference-signature-s8-loudspeaker/
I understand what you r saying but on the other hand, I don’t.
I thought audiophiles wanted to hear as much into the recording as possible ? so ATC must be one of the better speakers out there? Relative flat frequency response, they don’t distort at higher SPL, very detailed. So if the mixer and mastering engineer did their job, what’s not to like ?
they are perhaps to technical, cold and not emotional..... ?
Not everyone would agree on ATC speakers being a bad fit in a domestic setting. I've heard ATC's in different iterations, rooms and systems - active, passive and different sizes/models - and it goes without saying they're not only very revealing of the source material, but as well the source components (digital or analogue) and preamp implementation (and power amps, if passive).
I find them best actively, but that way they're even more transparent, dynamically astute, resolved and composed, which gives them a further edge into laying bare what's fed to them. As such one has to be careful not to pair them with dry, lean or bright sounding components, not because ATC speakers are that, but rather because they're quite "accurate." Maybe you experienced a less than ideal pairing here?
Passively configured speakers with less powerful drivers that distort more and that are "voiced" differently (i.e.: often more tipped up in the frequency extremes, leaner in the upper bass/lower mids and/or more recessed in the central/upper mids) can come across a bit "fuzzier" sounding, more laid-back, less meaty in the power region and subjectively more pleasing to the ear with an addition of upper end airiness. Being used to that I can imagine ATC speakers, not least fitted with their crazy good 3" midrange dome, as coming across perhaps a bit monochromatic and mids oriented in their presentation.
Myself I tend to find them more "right" and honest sounding compared to most "hifi" speakers, and not least actively they're very smooth, resolved and easy on the ears. Some feel they're lacking in bass volume, but to me they have a very tuneful, balanced low end. I've tuned my own outboardly configured active setup in a similar fashion to the ATC's: tuneful, balanced lows; a present, textured and tonally accurate midrange, and a resolved top end that's a natural extension of the mids and doesn't call attention to itself. Overall a full, dense, sphere-like and coherent presentation.
This is a really great question and super complicated. At first glance it seems reasonably easy to answer. If you are happy with your system then maybe you will say yes. But, are you sure another speaker might not be much better for you? or your room? Or your electronics? Are you sure you are even getting everything you can out of your speakers? Would they do more for you with different amps or positioning?
Also, if you go to a dealer or a show and hear something you really fall in love with, it's possible that it won't do the same for you at home. Or, it might even do better.
Unless we have the ability to try many different products in our room, it's hard to know. And because our listening ability and preferences evolve, it's an ever changing target.
Suddenly an easy question becomes really difficult to answer.
IMHO the best we can do is hear as many different brands and products in different environments, and if one brand tends to catch our attention or tick all the boxes, we can move in that direction and buy the best model in that brand's line we can afford. If funds allow in the future, we can continue to invest in that brand and move up the line if it is still doing a lot for us musically. At the same time, we must always be open to the possibility that our tastes and listening abilities have moved us in a slightly different direction and we may begin seeing another brand we appreciate for other reasons.
It never ends, unfortunately. Or fortunately.
Also, if you go to a dealer or a show and hear something you really fall in love with, it's possible that it won't do the same for you at home. Or, it might even do better.
Unless we have the ability to try many different products in our room, it's hard to know. And because our listening ability and preferences evolve, it's an ever changing target.
Suddenly an easy question becomes really difficult to answer.
IMHO the best we can do is hear as many different brands and products in different environments, and if one brand tends to catch our attention or tick all the boxes, we can move in that direction and buy the best model in that brand's line we can afford. If funds allow in the future, we can continue to invest in that brand and move up the line if it is still doing a lot for us musically. At the same time, we must always be open to the possibility that our tastes and listening abilities have moved us in a slightly different direction and we may begin seeing another brand we appreciate for other reasons.
It never ends, unfortunately. Or fortunately.
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