Is "Walking Up On Stage" a Sonic Attribute?

Kingrex

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If your creating a sense of something that is not on the recording, well, ok. Hopefully you enjoy it.
When I say I sensed being on stage was on 1 track. The Simon And Garfunkel Live In Central Park. I am pretty confident the mic were onstage. This gave the illusion on the large horn system that Inwas sitting on a stool onstage. The crowd was clearly in front and below me. This might also happen if a classical piece were performed and the mic onstage. You may sense the audience out in front.

This should not happen on a studio recording. IMO. Why would it. Not unless the engineer mastered it that way. But, then again, maybe we don't sense it that often because of crosstalk. That brings me back to a BACCH. When you get rid of the crosstalk, there arises a much greater sense of immersion that puts you inside the music. Sort of a, up on the stage or in the studio with the band.
 

bonzo75

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+1 (emphasis added)

This is somewhat off-topic from the opening post, so please forgive me, but part of Graham's post was the perfect opening. This point was made abundantly clear to me, Don and three other members of our Southern California audiophile group who visited Jim Yager and his gigantic PBN Audio M777s on Saturday. The M777 is 18" x 2 + 12" x 2, with a 6" ribbon driver in the middle handling 1,200Hz and above, 95dB sensitivity, 81" tall, 490 pounds. The design concept is almost identical to that of the Goebel Divin Majestic. The key in this design is having such incredible driver surface area covering just 20Hz to 1,200Hz (1,600Hz in the case of the Majestic).

Don played Mahler's Symphony No. 3 (Zubin Mehta, Los Angeles Philharmonic). I played Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique (Chesky).

All six of us agreed it was at least one of the two or three best reproductions of large scale classical symphony orchestra music we had ever heard from high-end audio systems. This recent experience renewed my conviction that believable reproduction of large scale classical symphony orchestra music requires height and large driver surface area.

great for Jim. this is an example of good orchestral playback. Nothing to do with walking up on stage.
 

Ron Resnick

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Nothing to do with walking up on stage.

I agree. I apologized at the beginning of my post for my slightly off-topic post picking up on one of Graham's points.
 

JackD201

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Uh guys I'm trying to figure out what the hullaballoo is about. Remember that Stereo was meant to have three front channels. For reasons associated mainly with cost, this was cut to two. Lots of things happened in between here but basically here's what it turns out, happened.

Knowing that doubling a sound source adds 3dB, remember we are using a logarithmic scale here so doubling does NOT double the perceived loudness, that 3dB however would be equivalent to adding a THIRD speaker should the two original pieces be able to recreate a faithful "fantom" channel in the middle. In the original 3 channel system the phantoms would be between the L and C and C and R.

In any case, one of the basic methods of speaker placement is to play a mono recording and adjust speaker positioning so all the sound appears to sound stacked smack down the middle. Go back to stereo and the chances of getting a soundstage populated as it was intended by the production team are very high. Now, If this can be done in an area instead of a plane then you get a sweet zone and not just a sweet spot. This is the summing area.

Now walking inside this zone requires a zone that is large enough for us to actually roam in. Sadly we are talking very wide distribution at a consistently wide bandwidth for the summing zone. Not to mention that the summing area must not only be wide and deep, it must be taller than the walker too.

It is a psychoacoustic effect of course. Pay attention to any one driver and that illusion can be instantly broken. However there is basic science behind triggering that effect predictably and consistently and has been achieved for decades.

To me being able to walk around a soundstage is a luxury because of what physical space and what demands are for a speaker to perform in that space. It's more FR limited form however, manifested as a soundstage where everything are in their own spaces is a FUNDAMENTAL goal of the stereo format. The walk in is only an extension of that that is just more rarely experienced in the home setting. It really isn't rare in top commercial applications. Well that and the system having enough headroom because we all know that system strain will bring a soundstage crashing down, walk in or not.

I've had the walk in thing going for a long time now. Ron experienced it on my old system and wrote about it on Mono and Stereo. It really isn't a party trick although I admit getting to make the stage flip from off the rear room diffusors while standing between the speakers is a pretty cool one . To me it is just another result of getting things set up just right. Given I have speakers with Super Cardiod characteristics above 100k and almost omnipolar response below that meant obviously that work on the channel symmetry both electronics wise and room acoustics wise were a big challenge that needed to be substantially addressed. Can this be done only by tall box speakers? No. One just needs to know his speakers dispersion, determine his sum zone. Get it right and walk in it. It is only EASIER to do this with tall FR speakers especially with a WMtMW configuration or you have money for MBL Xtremes LOL With Horns it is harder not because it is technically to do. It is only harder to do because you'll need a bigger room because whose sum zone will be more into the room. The space savings of being able to set up closer to the front wall is negated by the throw of the horns and their large depth to begin width. Regardless, Horns do it, Planars can do it. The best ones anyway.

Do I see it as a requisite, NO.

Is it cool. F&^K yeah. LOL
 

Rexp

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Aug 31, 2022
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Uh guys I'm trying to figure out what the hullaballoo is about. Remember that Stereo was meant to have three front channels. For reasons associated mainly with cost, this was cut to two. Lots of things happened in between here but basically here's what it turns out, happened.

Knowing that doubling a sound source adds 3dB, remember we are using a logarithmic scale here so doubling does NOT double the perceived loudness, that 3dB however would be equivalent to adding a THIRD speaker should the two original pieces be able to recreate a faithful "fantom" channel in the middle. In the original 3 channel system the phantoms would be between the L and C and C and R.

In any case, one of the basic methods of speaker placement is to play a mono recording and adjust speaker positioning so all the sound appears to sound stacked smack down the middle. Go back to stereo and the chances of getting a soundstage populated as it was intended by the production team are very high. Now, If this can be done in an area instead of a plane then you get a sweet zone and not just a sweet spot. This is the summing area.

Now walking inside this zone requires a zone that is large enough for us to actually roam in. Sadly we are talking very wide distribution at a consistently wide bandwidth for the summing zone. Not to mention that the summing area must not only be wide and deep, it must be taller than the walker too.

It is a psychoacoustic effect of course. Pay attention to any one driver and that illusion can be instantly broken. However there is basic science behind triggering that effect predictably and consistently and has been achieved for decades.

To me being able to walk around a soundstage is a luxury because of what physical space and what demands are for a speaker to perform in that space. It's more FR limited form however, manifested as a soundstage where everything are in their own spaces is a FUNDAMENTAL goal of the stereo format. The walk in is only an extension of that that is just more rarely experienced in the home setting. It really isn't rare in top commercial applications. Well that and the system having enough headroom because we all know that system strain will bring a soundstage crashing down, walk in or not.

I've had the walk in thing going for a long time now. Ron experienced it on my old system and wrote about it on Mono and Stereo. It really isn't a party trick although I admit getting to make the stage flip from off the rear room diffusors while standing between the speakers is a pretty cool one . To me it is just another result of getting things set up just right. Given I have speakers with Super Cardiod characteristics above 100k and almost omnipolar response below that meant obviously that work on the channel symmetry both electronics wise and room acoustics wise were a big challenge that needed to be substantially addressed. Can this be done only by tall box speakers? No. One just needs to know his speakers dispersion, determine his sum zone. Get it right and walk in it. It is only EASIER to do this with tall FR speakers especially with a WMtMW configuration or you have money for MBL Xtremes LOL With Horns it is harder not because it is technically to do. It is only harder to do because you'll need a bigger room because whose sum zone will be more into the room. The space savings of being able to set up closer to the front wall is negated by the throw of the horns and their large depth to begin width. Regardless, Horns do it, Planars can do it. The best ones anyway.

Do I see it as a requisite, NO.

Is it cool. F&^K yeah. LOL
Apart from MBL Extremes, which other commercially available speakers do it in your experience?
 

JackD201

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Apart from MBL Extremes, which other commercially available speakers do it in your experience?
Hi Rex aside from the Extremes and my two generations of VSA 11s, those I personally experienced that are available were the Genesis 1s, Zellaton Statement, Tidal Sunray.
 
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JackD201

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Steve might chime in and ask why the 111 XS isn't included. Not a commercially available model ;)
 

mtemur

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Remember that Stereo was meant to have three front channels. For reasons associated mainly with cost, this was cut to two. Lots of things happened in between here but basically here's what it turns out, happened.
Actually stereo is commercialized by two channels instead of three because of vinyl record limitations. When stereo hit the market at the end of 50’s only consumer music format was vinyl records which has hardly adapted to two channel 45/45 Westrex method. Adding third channel to already overly complex stereo records was impossible in the 50’s. At least comercially.
 
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JackD201

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Actually stereo is commercialized by two channels instead of three because of vinyl record limitations. When stereo hit the market at the end of 50’s only consumer music format was vinyl records which has hardly adapted to two channel 45/45 Westrex method. Adding third channel to already overly complex stereo records was impossible in the 50’s. At least comercially.

Yes mtemur you are quite correct. Only Vinyl was feasible for the mass market at the time.

You would have needed a 3 channel tape machine which was the original source for 3ch Stereo. The machine cost more than a turntable and the tapes would have cost more than vinyl. You would have needed another speaker, two more cables, another channel each for pre and power amplification. You would have had to be an industry insider of sorts to have access to the little tapes there were. We do know that Frank Sinatra had such a system at one of his homes. Was it Palm Springs?
 
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bonzo75

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