The JPS Labs wire I used for years was stranded. People seem to like it. It was 8 gauge.
In-wall cable question
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The JPS Labs wire I used for years was stranded. People seem to like it. It was 8 gauge.
Immediately apparent was an ability to turn the volume up louder than previously without distortion or discomfort, and an ability to hear more inner detail, and follow individual instrumental lines and voices more easily, which suggests a reduction in noise. After a week or so of burn-in it became clear that instrumental timbres were more realistic/natural sounding (piano tone stood out for me) with subtly longer decay. Since I played the piano in my youth it is my "go-to" test. The sound was more relaxed and balanced overall (less etch, glare, sibilance) without any reduction in "PRAT". A couple of my club members pointed out that the soundstage was a little larger and that it was easier to pinpoint individual images within the soundstage. Note that the Hubbell outlet was changed to an Oyaide R1 at the same time the wiring was changed so what I cannot do is apportion these improvements, e.g., on a % basis, between the wire and the outlet.
Timely thread - as I just converted (today) my dedicated 20a 120v outlet to a 20a 240v in order to test out an Equitech 3RQ. Assuming it's the bomb, then the next step is to replace the standard copper 12g Romex with an "appropriate" 10g.
There are some mixed reviews here, but most seem to confirm that the JPS in wall improved things - but at $40/foot, it sure is pricey. But (unless I missed it) there has been no pure A-B with typical Romex, as Ron lamented. I'll look into the new Audience product as well. Surprised VHAudio does not offer something twisted for this situation, just the cryo'd romex.
A local audio shop (AVI) suggested a DIY option of twisting the hot and neutral (2.5 turns/ft ? ) and running the ground along side - with multi strand superior to solid, which looks sorta like the JPS design.
Why not just run some bulk furutech neotech or similar power cord in the wall?
Suggestions / recommendations / guidance are most welcome.
There are some mixed reviews here, but most seem to confirm that the JPS in wall improved things - but at $40/foot, it sure is pricey. But (unless I missed it) there has been no pure A-B with typical Romex, as Ron lamented. I'll look into the new Audience product as well. Surprised VHAudio does not offer something twisted for this situation, just the cryo'd romex.
A local audio shop (AVI) suggested a DIY option of twisting the hot and neutral (2.5 turns/ft ? ) and running the ground along side - with multi strand superior to solid, which looks sorta like the JPS design.
Why not just run some bulk furutech neotech or similar power cord in the wall?
Suggestions / recommendations / guidance are most welcome.
Don't run furutech or neotech in the wall. Just use 10g THHN and call it a day. The sound will be very good.
Cryo'd Romex is ridiculous if I'm being honest.
Cryo'd Romex is ridiculous if I'm being honest.
...agree with @bazelio 's idea re: 10ga THHN. Solid or stranded, folks can disagree.
I would add, running cable in your walls that is not certified for that usage is a risk, should you have an issue. Your insurance company would ask: You ran "what" in your wall?
To extend the point, a licensed sparky would (should!) not run that for you, as it does not meet NEC code (US).
Will something happen? Probably not...but if it does, mama-mia that's a problem.
I would add, running cable in your walls that is not certified for that usage is a risk, should you have an issue. Your insurance company would ask: You ran "what" in your wall?
To extend the point, a licensed sparky would (should!) not run that for you, as it does not meet NEC code (US).
Will something happen? Probably not...but if it does, mama-mia that's a problem.
Yeah, do not put audiophile wires in-wall. Some tips for rewiring include trying to avoid junctions, i.e. straight runs from the panel to the equipment, isolated grounds if metal boxes or conduit is in use. These things will make a difference. I used stranded THHN simply because it was easier to fish around corners and such. Solid is probably more commonly used, but I do find the end result to be excellent.
Thanks for the response and guidance.
FWIW, my thinking on power cord wire was that it must be certified to carry that power, but now realize that was shortsighted given the in-wall application. No power cord in the wall, got it.
Thought I'd tabulate the options.
In terms of money for 50ft of 10/2.
- $140 for romex (home depot)
- $200 for vhaudio croy'd romex ($5/ft)
- $280 for Southwire Armorlite (gotta buy 125ft), mentioned on Audio Bacon as "quiet", maybe the metal jacket? (home depot)
- $1100 for Audience ($22/ft), website says C3 certified
- $2000 for JPS ($40/ft) - seems out of date, with the Audience being far newer materials and better reviewed. Oddly, despite it's longevity, website mentions no certifications.
FWIW, my thinking on power cord wire was that it must be certified to carry that power, but now realize that was shortsighted given the in-wall application. No power cord in the wall, got it.
Thought I'd tabulate the options.
In terms of money for 50ft of 10/2.
- $140 for romex (home depot)
- $200 for vhaudio croy'd romex ($5/ft)
- $280 for Southwire Armorlite (gotta buy 125ft), mentioned on Audio Bacon as "quiet", maybe the metal jacket? (home depot)
- $1100 for Audience ($22/ft), website says C3 certified
- $2000 for JPS ($40/ft) - seems out of date, with the Audience being far newer materials and better reviewed. Oddly, despite it's longevity, website mentions no certifications.
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I have a theory that the PVC jacket on Romex may be detrimental. At least with THHN, that variable is eliminated. Southwire might have been the brand I used as that name sounds familiar. I bought it from a local commercial electrical supply store. It does not have a metal jacket.
...you could also price #10 THHN wire, noting you would need a hot, neutral and ground wire for the length of your run. This would also need to be run in rigid pvc or metal conduit (not very friendly in existing residential applications) or typically FMC (flexible metal conduit). IIRC @Kingrex likes "smurf tube" which is a blue flexible plastic conduit. In addition, you would need fasteners and connectors, of course.
Some would argue against Romex, cryo-ed or otherwise, perhaps mainly due to cable geometry. With the "loose" wire, you can twist accordingly to get what you like.
You could also use larger gauge cable, but it can be challenging for diy projects, if not used to it. And 10ga. is typical max for outlets without pigtail or terminal lugs.
Perhaps the best advice: get help if you need it. Sounds like a nice project. Good Luck!
Some would argue against Romex, cryo-ed or otherwise, perhaps mainly due to cable geometry. With the "loose" wire, you can twist accordingly to get what you like.
You could also use larger gauge cable, but it can be challenging for diy projects, if not used to it. And 10ga. is typical max for outlets without pigtail or terminal lugs.
Perhaps the best advice: get help if you need it. Sounds like a nice project. Good Luck!
Take a look at my site and see my impressions of wire. You can twist your own but its not as easy as you think. You have no planetary nutrilizer unless you do it by hand.
I don't see any reason for a non metallic jacket to influence the electro magnetic field around a wire. The casing on the wire will, as its in direct contact with the metal. A steel raceway such as EMT or MC will influence the magnetic field. The only benefit I see with steel is additional reduction of the EMF field surrounding the wire. To me, this means you can run groups of wire closer together. Or a bunch of branches in a wall right behind the rack will have less influence on the cables to the components. EMF will go right through drywall. But the field around branches is pretty small. Only a few inches.
I would try Cryogenic. BUT. Cryo can be done wrong and make the sound hard. You want full immersion and they need to take it down slow. Not just throw it in a bath. And bath sizes are limited.
You still need to assess all that is going on in the panelboard, house grounding, branch routing and length, terminations and makeup.
You should feed everything out of your Equitech. Amps and all. Amps and subs really benefit from a large core isolation transformer. I don't care the amp size. A 3 watt SET or 500 watt gryphon. Size the transformer appropriately. What do you think is in the street in front of your house. What feed that transformer. I have never heard anyone say anything other than an appropriately sized transformer feeding everything makes the bass tighter, more dynamic and better integrated with the mids and highs. That, combined with the quiet from the flirtation and you have world class power. I don't find filtering only front end gear to have the same effect as a global isolation transformer.
I like the transformer out of the room. Technically rack mount is optimum as far as the duplex outlet from the core is only 1 foot or less. But, all transformer create a pretty large magnetic field. You have to be thoughtful on placement. They can most definitely induce hum into adjacent cables and equipment if the transformer is placed incorrectly. I have seen it a few times. Just be ready to move it around till you find the happy location.
I don't like JPS for a number of reasons. Audience looks to be Encore liquid tight MC. I don't know they had anything special made or not. Southwire and Encore both told me they do not make special batches of high purity copper. There are a very limited number of plants in the world that have a extruding process devoid of oxygen, runs slow with controlled temperature to get single crystal 5x9s or more pure copper. Almost all copper wire for sale that is manufactured as THHN solid 10 is electrolytic pure copper 99.95% purity (ETP).
But what is purity. You need to consider O2 content as well a crystalline structure. Crystal structure is more important than O2 content.
Lower draw speeds and heat lower crystal growth. But time is money as they say. There is a ton of information on Draw science out there for grains size and orientation in copper drawing. The die strain and heat are the primary grain producing attributes in the process.
Impurities are a separate issue and relate to how "closed" the system is. Impurities are absorbed as they have an affinity to the oxygen in the smelting process. The added gasses in the furnace that are then pulled off, but leave a small trace of themselves (oxygen for instance) in the metal. The trace O2 is less damaging than what is remove from the metals (mostly arsenic and lead). OFHC copper contains less than 10 ppm of oxygen, while ETP copper contains between 150 to 600 ppm of oxygen.
I am waiting on a quote from Belden to get OFHC and OFE single crystal solid core #10. Not sure if it will be affordable or not. They will grain orient, twist and jacket at the factory. I am assuming OFE copper, grain oriented, twisted and jacketed is going to be about $60 a foot.
So far I find 10 awg THHN/THWN Southwire/Cero wire or Encore twisted 1 twist every 2 inch and pulled in ENT to be the most harmonically complete and clean sounding wire. Jacketed non metallic (romex) is very similar but a touch thinner. I think jacketed non metallic is perfect for subs. Everyone seems to want their subs to be a little faster. Not that the twisted wire is slow. I just don't think its necessary with a sub if budget is a consideration. I would use the twisted wire on the amps and front end gear. You hear it there. I have done blind test at my house with others with long gaps between and walking back into the room you still know what wire is feeding the amp. I have had a few customers buy it, then listen and compare to their Romex style 10 and say the same thing. It's more harmonically rich and complete. Try to hand twist it. A drill will add a lot of unwanted torsion.
I don't see any reason for a non metallic jacket to influence the electro magnetic field around a wire. The casing on the wire will, as its in direct contact with the metal. A steel raceway such as EMT or MC will influence the magnetic field. The only benefit I see with steel is additional reduction of the EMF field surrounding the wire. To me, this means you can run groups of wire closer together. Or a bunch of branches in a wall right behind the rack will have less influence on the cables to the components. EMF will go right through drywall. But the field around branches is pretty small. Only a few inches.
I would try Cryogenic. BUT. Cryo can be done wrong and make the sound hard. You want full immersion and they need to take it down slow. Not just throw it in a bath. And bath sizes are limited.
You still need to assess all that is going on in the panelboard, house grounding, branch routing and length, terminations and makeup.
You should feed everything out of your Equitech. Amps and all. Amps and subs really benefit from a large core isolation transformer. I don't care the amp size. A 3 watt SET or 500 watt gryphon. Size the transformer appropriately. What do you think is in the street in front of your house. What feed that transformer. I have never heard anyone say anything other than an appropriately sized transformer feeding everything makes the bass tighter, more dynamic and better integrated with the mids and highs. That, combined with the quiet from the flirtation and you have world class power. I don't find filtering only front end gear to have the same effect as a global isolation transformer.
I like the transformer out of the room. Technically rack mount is optimum as far as the duplex outlet from the core is only 1 foot or less. But, all transformer create a pretty large magnetic field. You have to be thoughtful on placement. They can most definitely induce hum into adjacent cables and equipment if the transformer is placed incorrectly. I have seen it a few times. Just be ready to move it around till you find the happy location.
I don't like JPS for a number of reasons. Audience looks to be Encore liquid tight MC. I don't know they had anything special made or not. Southwire and Encore both told me they do not make special batches of high purity copper. There are a very limited number of plants in the world that have a extruding process devoid of oxygen, runs slow with controlled temperature to get single crystal 5x9s or more pure copper. Almost all copper wire for sale that is manufactured as THHN solid 10 is electrolytic pure copper 99.95% purity (ETP).
But what is purity. You need to consider O2 content as well a crystalline structure. Crystal structure is more important than O2 content.
Lower draw speeds and heat lower crystal growth. But time is money as they say. There is a ton of information on Draw science out there for grains size and orientation in copper drawing. The die strain and heat are the primary grain producing attributes in the process.
Impurities are a separate issue and relate to how "closed" the system is. Impurities are absorbed as they have an affinity to the oxygen in the smelting process. The added gasses in the furnace that are then pulled off, but leave a small trace of themselves (oxygen for instance) in the metal. The trace O2 is less damaging than what is remove from the metals (mostly arsenic and lead). OFHC copper contains less than 10 ppm of oxygen, while ETP copper contains between 150 to 600 ppm of oxygen.
I am waiting on a quote from Belden to get OFHC and OFE single crystal solid core #10. Not sure if it will be affordable or not. They will grain orient, twist and jacket at the factory. I am assuming OFE copper, grain oriented, twisted and jacketed is going to be about $60 a foot.
So far I find 10 awg THHN/THWN Southwire/Cero wire or Encore twisted 1 twist every 2 inch and pulled in ENT to be the most harmonically complete and clean sounding wire. Jacketed non metallic (romex) is very similar but a touch thinner. I think jacketed non metallic is perfect for subs. Everyone seems to want their subs to be a little faster. Not that the twisted wire is slow. I just don't think its necessary with a sub if budget is a consideration. I would use the twisted wire on the amps and front end gear. You hear it there. I have done blind test at my house with others with long gaps between and walking back into the room you still know what wire is feeding the amp. I have had a few customers buy it, then listen and compare to their Romex style 10 and say the same thing. It's more harmonically rich and complete. Try to hand twist it. A drill will add a lot of unwanted torsion.
The wire is locked together. Its not untwisting or coming apart. You do not need tape to keep the geometry. If you do a very light twist just to keep the conductors laying next to each other, then tape may be needed. When I light twist feeder cable, I use tape to hold it together.
It would be most accurate to say I have never heard it and I only advocate be cautious about burying it behind a wall. Its not something you can just change. Not unless you pull it in ENT pipe. If you pipe with ENT or pvc or steel or what have you, put whatever you want in. Its easy to swap if there is an issue.
From a technical perspective, its tin plated. Tin has poor conductivity compared to other electrical plating. Its useful to keep corrosion out. Tin coated copper is used in applications where continuity is critical over many many years. It is very good at not rotting from oxidation and will last. Think military, ships, mining, industrial. But those are not high sensitivity audio devices. Well, a jet and a space craft are. But they are designing for extreme environments where a failure is life and death.
Its fine stranded. Stranded has issue with skin affect as well as capacitance of all the strands touching.
I don't think I have seen a power cord from a well know manufacturer using tin plated copper wire. Why put it behind the wall.
As I said above, I have never listened to it.
My assumption, and its just that, is it has a color.
My whole focus is to make a base standard of just copper. As pure a path a possible. My belief is If you want to add color, do it with the duplex and everything beyond the wall. A pure copper path also removes the galvanic reaction of copper to aluminum and the haze/veil that seems to add.
It is possible over many installations, Equitech find JPS sounds good. I did not want to invest $500 to find out.
The other person I know who does what I do is standardized on MC cable. That is plain solid THHN copper with a steel jacket. He has done a lot of recording studio.
Years ago when Joe Pitman was with us, we got into trying wire. We used Deulund tin plated hook up wire as well as mil spec silver coated wire behind the wall. Both were very colored. The mil spec silver more so than the tin copper. I also tried both as a speaker cable between my drivers and the crossover. Both horrible. To be fair I did not use the Deulund tin plated speaker wire. I used the 600 volt power wire, so that may make a large difference in the speaker application.
I do believe people such as DDK who like stranded, plain copper wire are tying to tame brightness in horns and add body. I find 10 awg stranded copper to be heavy and full of bass. Not natural in my system.
I advocate the use of Solid #10. Its consistent and what the industry for the most part uses when designing equipment. They probably have #12 in the wall. It may be solid or stranded. But its not tin plated. Solid #10 is a wire you can't go wrong with. If I could do anything beyond industry stand ETP copper, I would look for more purity and less crystal boundaries. But I would stay with copper only. We probably don't see more of it as a 2000 foot run of black, white, green is 6000 feet. That at $60 a foot is a $360,000 investment. That is real money.
I had a buddy that tried a few different things with his big isolation transformer recommend 4ga THHN, and bought 50' of that. What would you say is the optimal way for me to run it? I hand wound it 1 (360 degree) turn every 2 feet, but can go a lot tighter. So when you say "turn" do you mean black starting on the right and the turn is completed when the black is back on the right? Would you recommend shielding & mechanical isolation? I was planning using conductive paint over the cables and for isolation planning to cut lightweight poly foam rings from pipe insulation and hang the cables on butyl rubber.
Sounds like a mess of internet driven mythology. Install it per the NEC. Don't make up stuff.
If your over the top concerned about noise, you can faraday shield the room with paints and fabrics. It can be done.
You then need to drop a Torus rack mount transforner in the room. Inside the shielded area. And you need the AVR to keep the voltage stable.
RF is a lot like water. It comes in everywhere. You need to paint ceiling, floor, walls and screen windows and doors. All that needs to be bonded. Its a ton of money. Its usually less to just get equipment with power supplies that can handle the noise.
There are times it helps to be flexible in equipment placement. One wall may be in a Hot spot and the other very quiet.
Just have your electrician run 10 Romex. Don't try and do illegal things like coating wire in conductive paint that may short out and burn your house down. Or float loose conductors on hangers. They have to be in a pipe or be jacketed.
If you are hell bent on painting the wire, get steel MC. That already has a conductive metal surface that will ground any shorts effectively. But your chasing RF from the wrong end of the system. Address your phono system and preamp. I am very confident thats where its enterimg and being modulated into the power supply and amplified.
Don't oversize beyond 10. How would you ever get a 4 into a duplex without a splice. How would you have the duplex in a box. Its not legal. Yes you could use oversize boxes and splay the wire around 2 screws and clip away whats too much. But don't.
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It sounds like you really like that Romex 10ga. My buddy took out his Romex 10ga and put in 4ga THHN and said it was one of the cheapest, biggest bang-for-the-buck upgrades he's ever tried. I'm sure it can be done in a fully NEC compliant and safe manner. I'll text the county electrical inspector. He gave my electrician a tough time when I had a property rewired a few years ago, so I'm certain he won't advise anything that is unsafe. Going to go for the 4ga since I already have it-- looks to me like it will fit my overpriced duplex.
As for shielding, coatings, and vibration isolation experiments,... I'm not looking to re-invent the wheel so happy to receive any comments from someone who's got more listening experience with these things than me.
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The thing is there are not many and those people are generally putting in unsafe installations that violate code. The basics of the code are founded in very know principles with lots of practice to back it up.
When I post I am not just speaking to you. I am also cautioning others reading where they want to avoid non code compliant installation practices. If someone post about practice that are not compliant, I am going to note what is not right or why it might be dangerous.
If people read this and get an idea to start painting their Romex or THHN with electrically conductive RF paint, they are violating code and maybe doing something that is possibly detrimental and unsafe. I did note you could "possibly" use RF paint on MC cable. I gave you good information. I am one of those other guy who has listening experience with unusual practice. I have thought about most all of it and experimented with the things that are fundamentally correct and based upon sound electrical theory and practice. I don't waste my time if its dangerous or non compliant. You shouldn't either.
Be cautious with #4. Bigger is not always better. Shunyata was having trouble at one time years ago, so I hear. They were making such a large gauge power cord, noise or reflections or something was going on that introduced more audible noise into the system. A #4??????? Why? Dan D'Agostino told me a #10 was more than enough for his 240 volt Relentless at 30 feet. Same for Boulder. #4 has to be stranded. Stranded will couple with, and will not shed RF as well as a small gauge solid wire. 4 will sound different than 10.
Use the 4 to feed a sub panel and drop more legs into the room.
Use the 4 to power a larger isolation transformer.
I do not advise using a #4 as a branch wire to a duplex.
For starters it takes a 1" raceway to hold 3 wires. You have to have a 4 11/16 metal box to take that pipe. Now you need an isolated ground duplex or the box is coupled to the ground. Is that a good thing.
No duplex is rated for a wire that large. Its not just about getting the wire around the screw. Its also about that #4 can exert much higher tortion onto the duplex and break the case/peal the device apart.
Packing a box with a wire and outlet is a craft. If your electrician is only moderate on craft skills, hes going to man handle that device into the box and break apart screw tight connections that can introduce micro arching and possible total failure.
Its just a bad idea all around to use #4 to a duplex.
And you have to put THHN wire in a raceway. Do not hang it like arial wires and then go slopping RF paint on it. Put it in a steel pipe and paint the pipe with RF paint. That would be a legal installation. Especially if you filled the pipe with #10 wire. Then its for all intents, fully code compliant and will kick butt in performance. I like an additional isolated ground with metal raceways.
Rex
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