In search for preamp

[hesavary]

Hello everyone,

My setup includes a pair of Sasha DAW, a Taiko Extreme streamer, and a Lampizator Horizon DAC that directly drives a CH M1.1 amplifier. It works well, but I feel like I'm missing a preamp to get the most out of my system. The natural partner would be the CH L1, but for several reasons I'm looking at alternative solutions.

• The CH amplifier is a little “straight,”
• ... and the Sasha speakers are a little “surgical” as well.
• I would like to bring a little warmth to the system.
• Finally, I'm not sure that my Sasha speakers are my partners for life, so I'm not ruling out the possibility of one day switching to high-efficiency speakers and eventually upgrading to tube amplification.

This brings me to the subject of my message, which concerns the choice of a preamp. I've read a lot of good things about Riviera, which I've never listened to, but from what I've read, it ticks a lot of the boxes that matter to me. Has anyone ever tried using a Riviera preamp (APL 01) with a CH M1.1 amplifier? Is it a good combination?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Kofi Baffour]

Hello everyone,

My setup includes a pair of Sasha DAW, a Taiko Extreme streamer, and a Lampizator Horizon DAC that directly drives a CH M1.1 amplifier. It works well, but I feel like I'm missing a preamp to get the most out of my system. The natural partner would be the CH L1, but for several reasons I'm looking at alternative solutions.

• The CH amplifier is a little “straight,”
• ... and the Sasha speakers are a little “surgical” as well.
• I would like to bring a little warmth to the system.
• Finally, I'm not sure that my Sasha speakers are my partners for life, so I'm not ruling out the possibility of one day switching to high-efficiency speakers and eventually upgrading to tube amplification.

This brings me to the subject of my message, which concerns the choice of a preamp. I've read a lot of good things about Riviera, which I've never listened to, but from what I've read, it ticks a lot of the boxes that matter to me. Has anyone ever tried using a Riviera preamp (APL 01) with a CH M1.1 amplifier? Is it a good combination?

Thanks in advance.

No need for. Preamp imo. What you need are speakers that are much more balanced in tonal presentation so you don't have to play whack-a-mole with accompanying gear

Also need to invest in an RTA mic and REW

The Sasha DAW whilst not a PA speaker is relatively efficient for a speaker (89.5dB@2.83V/1m) compared to the average sensitivity of speakers that hovers around 85dB@2.83V/1m. What it is, is a current leaning speaker as its electrical impedance dips and phase angle demand a little bit more current than the average floostander

 

[pk_LA]

For a touch of warmth, try a tube preamplifier. I have a similar need. I have tried a large number of preamps to come to this conclusion.

The Riviera is probably a great choice given it is a hybrid preamp. I am sure Elliott (active here on WBF) can help. I have dealt with him and have only had positive things to say. He is a) knowledgeable, b) direct, c) honest, d) very good with following through.

If the Riviera does not end up floating your boat, I recommend you explore the VAC and the Audio Research for some warmth.

 

[gleeds]

PK, totally agree about the combination of the SS amplifier and the tube pre.

Hesavery, with bias (I am the US importer), I will make my recommendation. Among the finest preamplifiers, and one that we have combined brilliantly with several top-level solid-state amplifiers, is the Trafomatic 30A, powered by Emission Lab 30A tubes. Fully balanced, Class A, and featuring adjustable gain to pair properly with most top-end SS amplifiers, the combination is superb. Available for in-home demos as always.

 

[thedudeabides]

No need for. Preamp imo. What you need are speakers that are much more balanced in tonal presentation so you don't have to play whack-a-mole with accompanying gear

An aggressive recommendation IMHO. And your recommendations given his system? And why?

BTW, what is your background and experience with hi end audio?

 

[gleeds]

Yes, speakers are also a worthwhile consideration, although what's missing does not sound like it's a function of the generally excellent Wilson speakers. However, we have upgraded several Horizon-based systems used as a pre-amplifier and made significant gains in SQ using both solid-state and tube pre-amplifiers. The bottom line is that, as amazing as the Horizon is as a DAC, using its internal volume control limits what your system can do. The new Lampi Aphrodites DAC eliminates the VC and is recommended for use with a top-level preamplifier.

Based on the question posed, regardless of whether one is looking for new loudspeakers, significant gains can be achieved by choosing a better preamp. Hesavery, if you would like to speak with a WB Member who has done just that, PM me and I'll put you two in touch.

 

[gestalt]

Finally, I'm not sure that my Sasha speakers are my partners for life, so I'm not ruling out the possibility of one day switching to high-efficiency speakers and eventually upgrading to tube amplification.

Hi! This makes me think you also want to consider the amplifier down the road. SW1X Audio Design offers lovely single-ended triode amplification for that future high efficiency loudspeaker and their linestages are fantastic. You'll want to look at the PRE IV (https://sw1xad.co.uk/products/sw1x-pre-iv-dht-line-pre-amplifier/) and PRE V (https://sw1xad.co.uk/products/sw1x-audio-design-pre-v-dht-line-pre-amplifier/) models.

They're essentially vacuum tube pornography.

 

[gleeds]

SWIX gear is very special, CK, and deserves consideration. Thankfully, there are still skilled, passionate designers from smaller firms pushing the envelope, and we do not only have the choice of large private equity-owned firms with different priorities.

My final word, Hesavery, would be that your next purchase should support where you are today, and also consider where it may lead you in the future. The bottom line is that you can never go wrong with buying the best preamp you can afford. A great preamp will serve you well, regardless of which direction you head in the future. Good luck on the road ahead.

 

[gadawg58]

Hello everyone,

My setup includes a pair of Sasha DAW, a Taiko Extreme streamer, and a Lampizator Horizon DAC that directly drives a CH M1.1 amplifier. It works well, but I feel like I'm missing a preamp to get the most out of my system. The natural partner would be the CH L1, but for several reasons I'm looking at alternative solutions.

• The CH amplifier is a little “straight,”
• ... and the Sasha speakers are a little “surgical” as well.
• I would like to bring a little warmth to the system.
• Finally, I'm not sure that my Sasha speakers are my partners for life, so I'm not ruling out the possibility of one day switching to high-efficiency speakers and eventually upgrading to tube amplification.

This brings me to the subject of my message, which concerns the choice of a preamp. I've read a lot of good things about Riviera, which I've never listened to, but from what I've read, it ticks a lot of the boxes that matter to me. Has anyone ever tried using a Riviera preamp (APL 01) with a CH M1.1 amplifier? Is it a good combination?

Thanks in advance.

So I used to own Sasha 2’s and drove them with several different setups over the years including McIntosh MC-601’s, Mark Levinson No 536 Monoblocks and BAT REX tube amps. While I ended up upgrading to the larger Alexx the overall sonic signature is still similar and I would have never called them surgical. The Wilsons tend to have a really large soundstage with a very ethereal presence and for many (me included) a very pleasing tonal balance that while not necessarily super accurate is fun to listen to. All that said, if things are sounding a little too analytical I’d look closer at the amp because the Lampi DAC is certainly a beautiful sounding DAC and while the CH gear is built incredibly well what you are describing sounds like there is the potential that the synergy between CH, Lampi and Wilson isn’t working for you. That said while you described the CH as a “straight” sounding amp and the speakers as surgical … you aren’t likely to totally “fix” that with a different brand preamp. I’d probably determine first if there is some combo of preamp/amp that makes you fall in love with your speakers and work towards that. I went through several amps until I found what I was looking for. ( I ended up with VAC pre/amp combo) But even then when I bought my Wilson Sasha’s i heard them with a setup that while i couldn’t afford it at the time.. I knew I loved the speakers so I always knew that wasn’t the problem when I got the itch to take the next step.

So .. my actual advice is to really figure out what total system makes you completely happy … that means lots of demo’s and the audio shows are a great place to hear a wide variety of systems quickly. The rooms setups there are often not great so I’d never use a show to rule something out but you might hear something that makes you want to go to your dealer for a closer listen. Find what you really want for the entire system then start working towards that knowing that you won’t reach audio nirvana until you’ve completed the system but at least that way you’re working towards an end state you know you’ll love. I did the mix and match thing for years and in the end once I took the total system approach I finally got my dream system.

Good luck!

George

 

[thedudeabides]

Problem is OP is in the "what ice cream flavor" do I like and will be very specfic to personal biases. Can't get that from shows, dealer demos or other peoples input. Too many other variables at play. Home audition really is the only way to ensure a successful, do it once outcome. How to effectively accomplish that is the challenge.

 

[gadawg58]

Problem is OP is in the "what ice cream flavor" do I like and will be very specfic to personal biases. Can't get that from shows, dealer demos or other peoples input. Too many other variables at play. Home audition really is the only way to ensure a successful, do it once outcome. How to effectively accomplish that is the challenge.

Agree on the home demo’s but you have to start somewhere and you’re not going to be able to arrange to home demo an unlimited amount of equipment.I was first exposed to VAC gear at a show and it was very effective at getting me interested in both a dealer demo and ultimately and in home demo before purchasing but without being first intrigued/exposed to the gear at the show I would have never gone down that road. Just what worked for me.

Cheers

George

 

[Rexp]

If a good pre amp doesn't improve your system, something is wrong with your source. But it's sometimes quite hard to describe what a good preamp brings as this reviewer found out:

 

[gleeds]

Agree on the home demo’s but you have to start somewhere and you’re not going to be able to arrange to home demo an unlimited amount of equipment.I was first exposed to VAC gear at a show and it was very effective at getting me interested in both a dealer demo and ultimately and in home demo before purchasing but without being first intrigued/exposed to the gear at the show I would have never gone down that road. Just what worked for me.

Cheers

George

George, 110% agree. In the price range we are discussing, any dealer worth their salt will allow a home demo. If they don't offer this service, then my advice is to consider a dealer that does.

It's not difficult to create a short list of the called-for tube preamplifiers. In Hesavary's case, due to the very high quality of his accompanying components, a top-level tube preamplifier is recommended based on his reported SQ objectives. There are, of course, others, but here are the ones I would focus on.

VAC Master or VAC Statement
Riviera APL 01
Trafomatic Tara 30A
The top offering from SWIX

 

[andromedaaudio]

If you want the very best by a landslide .

Its FMA 268C

 

[microstrip]

Hello everyone,

My setup includes a pair of Sasha DAW, a Taiko Extreme streamer, and a Lampizator Horizon DAC that directly drives a CH M1.1 amplifier. It works well, but I feel like I'm missing a preamp to get the most out of my system. The natural partner would be the CH L1, but for several reasons I'm looking at alternative solutions.

• The CH amplifier is a little “straight,”
• ... and the Sasha speakers are a little “surgical” as well.
• I would like to bring a little warmth to the system.
• Finally, I'm not sure that my Sasha speakers are my partners for life, so I'm not ruling out the possibility of one day switching to high-efficiency speakers and eventually upgrading to tube amplification.

This brings me to the subject of my message, which concerns the choice of a preamp. I've read a lot of good things about Riviera, which I've never listened to, but from what I've read, it ticks a lot of the boxes that matter to me. Has anyone ever tried using a Riviera preamp (APL 01) with a CH M1.1 amplifier? Is it a good combination?

Thanks in advance.

The Audio Research REF40 (Anniversary) and later version REF10 are not exactly warm preamplfiers, but it is musical, spacious and has excellent definition and bass quality. I enjoyed it a lot with the Dartzeel amplifiers and with the VTL Siegfried II . But never listened to it with the CH amplifiers.

 

[Iamrael]

You can also consider a tube buffer.
Here’s one of a many….

ModWright Analog Bridge Tube Buffer

Buy, sell, and trade thousands of pre-owned audio gear. All tested, certified, and backed by our 100% Happiness Guarantee, with expert HiFi guides to help you at every step.

tmraudio.com

 

[hesavary]

Hi All,

Thanks for your answers, lot of interesting & valuable inputs.
Indeed, VAC, but also Nagra HD was on my list with Riviera.
VAC not super easy to listen to, representation in Europe, especially here in France, is not that big.
So my next step will be to organise listening sessions, as much as possible at home.
Thanks again for your contributions.

 

[heihei]

The Lampizator Horizon needs an active pre-amp IMHO. I tried mine for a while straight through to my power amps, and the system lost it's magic - putting the pre back in brought back the magic.

Having spent time with CH pre/power, I'm of the opinion that the L1 is the star of the show, especially with the X1 power supply added. I found the M1.1's very capable but dull and risked relegating the music to background listening. The L1 + X1 is a stunning pre from my experience.

If you decide to stick with the M1.1's but move away from CH for the pre, then the Riviera is a fantastic pre. I spent time with it when I had a pair of Berning Quadrature Z's as power amps, and they brought a beautiful harmonic tone to the music. If you read their design principles, then this is something they focus on and it comes through. There are plenty of other very good tube-based pre's that will do something similar (I tried VTL 7.5, AR Ref 10, Ypsilon, Berning, Thoress), but my recollection is that the Riviera has a lower noise floor.

Slightly left-field - I ran a Thomas Mayer 10Y pre for a while and brought a lovely flow to the music. Interestingly, when I picked it up, it was in a system with Nagra HD and I had a quick listen. It was very good, but 4x the price of the Mayer!

 

[pk_LA]

An aggressive recommendation IMHO. And your recommendations given his system? And why?

BTW, what is your background and experience with hi end audio?

I have heard quite a few systems with and without preamps using the preamp off of the dac (MSB, dCS and Lampi). I have never come away with the conclusion that the preamp did not materially benefit the system. Never.

 

[pk_LA]

by the way and fwiw, I have heard that the Trapomatic does sound quite good.