I know this is an age old debate, but I need a technical explanation why one would choose tubes over solid state

[Kingrex]

Timely subject, as I have been contemplating changing from my beloved tubes to SS. I just don't know if I can do it, but I am investigating it.

To me, it's like the whole vinyl vs. digital debate. Yes of course digital is "superior in every way" on paper. But, I personally have not heard digital that sounds "better" than SOTA vinyl playback. It's personal tastes, it's different, any way you want to say it but I don't believe you can put up blanket terms that one is better than another.

With tubes, there is a liquidity that I just don't know if I can accept losing in a switch to SS. Now there is some SS which will give me just enough of that to keep me engaged but most SS of that caliber is very, very expensive.

I'm on a quest to see if it's worth it or not.

Don't forget to call me when you have some options at your house. I want to hear them.

 

[Atmasphere]

I recognize that to you tubes sound better, but for the life of me cannot understand why. Everyone will choose what works for them if given the chance to do so, I suppose. I just don't understand why tube equipment is so cherished and when people say it sounds better that is where my real disconnect happens. There is no objective measurement that supports the assertion that tube equipment is more faithful to the recording.

Right. The differences we hear between tube and solid state (if we do hear differences; depends on the equipment) has to do with how the amps make distortion. Our ears assign tonality to distortion in exactly the same manner as they assign harmonic structure of musical instruments.

Negative feedback is not without sonic consequences, and tubes, being more linear amplification devices, require less of it. While SS amps have better THD numbers, the technically low distortions they do have, which often involve higher harmonics, can be more grating to the human ear. Not just absolute technical numbers need to be considered, but also their psychoacoustic effect. I am sure experts can chime in who have more to say on the subject.

There's nothing wrong with feedback if its properly applied. So the implication is yes, its often misapplied in audio amplifiers which has resulted in an undeserved bad rap.

Tubes are needless to me cos I do not want impedance mismatch relationship between my amp and speaker altering my speaker's frequency response for absolutely no reason.

Tubes are capable of acting as a Voltage source just so you know, which means no impedance mismatch and no FR changes. The reason you hear differences between tube and solid state has nothing to do FR in most cases; the exception being zero feedback tube amps.

Do certain specifications guarantee appealing sound?

Yes, if you know what to look for. Most of the time the specs you need to see are not published and often not even made.

And in the world of tube amps the Heath Willliamson amp was an excellent design but it couldnt hold a candle to that early SS amp. Not to my ears.

I think if you were to find those two amps and have them refurbished properly and do that audition again you might find that your listening preferences have matured. The simple fact is early solid state was dreadful, although some of it did have a rich character owing to the use of a single-end Voltage amplifier with a single-ended driver driving the push-pull outputs via a driver transformer. That kind of topology will make a lot of 2nd harmonic. But those amps were prone to thermal runaway and the distortion got considerably harsher at higher levels! AR made exactly such an amp in their integrated amplifier and it was a dreadful thing to keep running. Didn't sound too bad if you didn't push it, but I'd take a tube amp over it any day. The semiconductors and topologies just weren't ready for prime time back then.

They know it is not true ... Damping and frequency response limit bass performance in tube designs.


Yes, this would be of interest, but I would prefer a comparison with the MA1's ...

No speaker made needs a damping factor in excess of 20:1 which many tube amps can do. There are comparisons mentioned on our customer feedback page regarding the M-60s vs our class D amps. As you know the MA-1 is a very similar sounding amp.

 

[microstrip]

Right. The differences we hear between tube and solid state (if we do hear differences; depends on the equipment) has to do with how the amps make distortion. Our ears assign tonality to distortion in exactly the same manner as they assign harmonic structure of musical instruments.

Oh my God - and the magic of tubes?

There's nothing wrong with feedback if its properly applied. So the implication is yes, its often misapplied in audio amplifiers which has resulted in an undeserved bad rap.

Yes - but for hard core audiophiles feedback applied in the amplifier of a vinyl head cutter is proper feedback, when applied in high-end consumer amplifiers it is bad feedback.

Tubes are capable of acting as a Voltage source just so you know, which means no impedance mismatch and no FR changes. The reason you hear differences between tube and solid state has nothing to do FR in most cases; the exception being zero feedback tube amps.

Because usually they have a very low damping factor hat affects system FR. The point is that you can place a perfect power resistor to emulate the tube output impedance and the SS amp will not sound like a tube amplifier.

Yes, if you know what to look for. Most of the time the specs you need to see are not published and often not even made.

It would take a lot of paper to publish them, but even Audio Precision analyzers have very interesting test methods and measurement setups that expose dynamic behavior of amplifiers under different conditions.

I think if you were to find those two amps and have them refurbished properly and do that audition again you might find that your listening preferences have matured. The simple fact is early solid state was dreadful, although some of it did have a rich character owing to the use of a single-end Voltage amplifier with a single-ended driver driving the push-pull outputs via a driver transformer. That kind of topology will make a lot of 2nd harmonic. But those amps were prone to thermal runaway and the distortion got considerably harsher at higher levels! AR made exactly such an amp in their integrated amplifier and it was a dreadful thing to keep running. Didn't sound too bad if you didn't push it, but I'd take a tube amp over it any day. The semiconductors and topologies just weren't ready for prime time back then.

In fact, the first good sounding SS amplifiers I remember listening were the low power Electrocompaniet and Bedini - none of them was famous for its reliability. At that time power devices had very limited Safe Operation Area.

No speaker made needs a damping factor in excess of 20:1 which many tube amps can do. There are comparisons mentioned on our customer feedback page regarding the M-60s vs our class D amps. As you know the MA-1 is a very similar sounding amp.

IMO the more usually referred threshold for damping factor in bass is between 40 and 80 - few tube amplifiers are able to provide it.

The MA1 can be used with much more demanding speakers, in line with modern speaker trends, making the comments more comprehensive.

 

[Atmasphere]

IMO the more usually referred threshold for damping factor in bass is between 40 and 80 - few tube amplifiers are able to provide it.

The only one I know of is the Kronhite UA101.

 

[morricab]

Yeah I get that...I have a tech background and am trying to understand why tube sound is pleasing for many people when the specs say they should be buying something else. Not throwing rocks here at anyone for their choices but trying to understand them. I have to agree though there is something about gazing on a bunch of tubes lit up...watching the tubes glow I suppose for some is like sitting and staring at a fire in the fireplace...there is no logic to it, but its enjoyable to do just the same. Maybe its embracing the whole nostalgic experience, old designs experienced in their best possible form today. It is curious to me what parts of this hobby really grab people, and tube devotion, for lack of a better term for it, is one that brings many to their knees.
I appreciate the story about Johnson, when I was going to tech school, they were still teaching tubes, but they were also teaching transistors and the early DIP integrated circuits. It was a lot to wrap your head around. But I always found tube circuits easier to understand and to troubleshoot too. So in that sense I liked tubes way more than solid state. Some of my favorite gadgets were tube based, but I remember my first exposure to stereo hifi was solid state driving AR3a speakers. This was my dad's system which had just been upgraded from a mono AR2 driven by a twenty watt tube Griefkit amp to a 35 wpc Griefkit solid state amp... to say the difference was startling is a huge understatement. And in the world of tube amps the Heath Willliamson amp was an excellent design but it couldnt hold a candle to that early SS amp. Not to my ears.

Psychoacoustics

 

[Holmz]

…
Why not set up an audition with a horn loudspeaker you are considering seriously and compare in that system with your source type of choice in a leisurely way a solid-state amplifier versus an SET amplifier?

Use of a SET almost requires horns… or at least really high efficiency/sensitivity.

For me the only question in that comparison is: which amplifier brings you closer to, and more emotionally connected with, the music you love?

The OP is probably better off finding the speaker that bring them more connected, and then the amp(s) that suit that speaker.
Some amps can drive any speaker, but the SET amps move one into a smaller range of speakers.

 

[jep123]

Ron, I am asking myself all kinds of questions at this time, reconsidering lots of long held beliefs, I am rebuilding a lifetime's collection of sound and video gear lost in a home fire. Much of what I had was vintage gear, some pieces highly prized, others not so much but they worked and worked well enough I did not feel the need to upgrade them. Given that much of that is totally lost now, I only get one chance to do this and I want to do it right, perhaps check off a few things that have been on the bucket list for a while, or find good reasons to check them off the list and forget about them because there is something better available now. So this runs the gamut from speakers, electronics, turntable or maybe a good CD player and forget records altogether. All possibilities are on the table until I find a reason to remove them from consideration. Its a daunting task I had more music systems than I have fingers. And now I don't. And going forward I may deliberately decide not to have that many again. Now its about getting pieces to keep for the rest of my days. At 72 I surely have a lot fewer ones to look forward to than I have lived already. So for the future, I have a short timer's attitude. I am here for a good time, not a long time. One of my considerations is a pair of Khorns. Always wanted a pair, I have room for them (barely), and the longer I look, I am thinking the LaScala AL6 might be a better choice in every way except for bass extension. I can always add subs as needed. But this gets me a modern representation of a Horn speaker in a size I can live with. A part of me wonders whether a tube amp paired with these would be magic or not. I know many Klipsch Heritage owners go that route...I am just not sure I want to make that financial commitment.

If you don’t want or are sceptical of tubes I can recommend the exellent Class D amps from the Japanese brand Spec Corp. Their integrated sounds superb and yes, they absolutely sound like tube amplifiers. As opposed to other Class D designs they do not have massive amounts of watts, but if you are thinking about using horns they should fit very nice.

 

[morricab]

Use of a SET almost requires horns… or at least really high efficiency/sensitivity.


The OP is probably better off finding the speaker that bring them more connected, and then the amp(s) that suit that speaker.
Some amps can drive any speaker, but the SET amps are move one into a smaller range of speakers.

How many SET amps have you owned and how many different kinds of speakers have you tried them on?

 

[Republicoftexas69]

If you don’t want or are sceptical of tubes I can recommend the exellent Class D amps from the Japanese brand Spec Corp. Their integrated sounds superb and yes, they absolutely sound like tube amplifiers. As opposed to other Class D designs they do not have massive amounts of watts, but if you are thinking about using horns they should fit very nice.

Actually a few class D sound like tubes, from experience Gold Note, Atma-Sphere, AGD and others.

 

[Holmz]

How many SET amps have you owned and how many different kinds of speakers have you tried them on?

2, and 1.

But yeah I get your point.
I am not an expert in SETs nor in Horns.

I either do a lot of homework ahead of time or I am easy to please and don’t change the system often.
It was hard enough 40 years ago picking out speakers, and these days would be real work.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Yes, you are right, it is the original shematic and the error has crept in

Thanks for verifying my observations on that amplifier, my tube training was well over 50 years ago and is a bit rusty. But in many ways seeing what the circuit is supposed to do and how it does it is, I think, easier with tubes. Maybe that is in part because many of tube circuits are a simpler design? I might one day own a tube amp just for the fun of it. We will see. For now I am firmly entrenched in the solid state camp. SS wins on the dollar cost per watt basis, lower overall noise and distortion and way less power consumption. Its a solid win on all fronts for me. I know there are plenty of people who see it differently, thats what makes the world go round.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Don't forget to call me when you have some options at your house. I want to hear them.

Take a listen to VTV amplifiers with the Hypex modules....class d that just really satisfies me. There is probably better, but I doubt it for the money. 500 wpc into 4 ohms at less than 1% THD. The distortion is vanishingly small at lower power levels where almost all of us operate...but this gives you headroom for dynamic peaks. Just saying, I bought 4 of these amps, 3 for for the main 5.2 system, and one for my 2.1 office system. I love em. They are the proverbial straight wire with gain. If there is any coloration I cannot hear it...and they are energy efficient. It is a solid win on every front.

 

[morricab]

Take a listen to VTV amplifiers with the Hypex modules....class d that just really satisfies me. There is probably better, but I doubt it for the money. 500 wpc into 4 ohms at less than 1% THD. The distortion is vanishingly small at lower power levels where almost all of us operate...but this gives you headroom for dynamic peaks. Just saying, I bought 4 of these amps, 3 for for the main 5.2 system, and one for my 2.1 office system. I love em. They are the proverbial straight wire with gain. If there is any coloration I cannot hear it...and they are energy efficient. It is a solid win on every front.

And yet you opened a contentious thread about tubes and transistors. Why if you are a satisfied owner of Class D amps?

 

[morricab]

2, and 1.

But yeah I get your point.
I am not an expert in SETs nor in Horns.

I either do a lot of homework ahead of time or I am easy to please and don’t change the system often.
It was hard enough 40 years ago picking out speakers, and these days would be real work.

Just out of curiosity, which SETs and what horn speaker?

 

[Holmz]

Just out of curiosity, which SETs and what horn speaker?

Sorry it was NOT a horn speaker.
Just a regular piston driver speaker.

Had a SET as a kid and a ratty speaker, but I liked it a lot when I was 11.
And I was able to run a crystal set into it as well.
I’ve also had a tube amp that had a switch to do Triode.

There is no doubt that SETs have a following, and there is no doubt that a lot of people like harmonic distortion.

Hoever the OP was talking about “why tubes,” and specifically mentioned noise and distortions.
It is not a requirement that a tube amp has a lot of distortion.
There are many that do not.
People just like the higher distortion ones like a cult.
I’m not sure it makes a great deal of difference though.
Some people can find many different systems that give them joy.

I am running a tube preamp, tube phono-amp, and SS or Class-D power amps.
It sounds fine, and the OP would probably be more inclined towards something like that.
He/They do not NEED to run a SET.

 

[chuck]

Due to my age I had the benefit of growing up while tube equipment was the only thing there was and then seeing solid state equipment develop and become the state of the art. I don't think that statement is hyperbole in the slightest. Here is my reasoning why I believe that SS equipment is superior in every way to tubes. In terms of pure performance, it measures better than tubes on any parameter you can pick. In terms of cost, SS wins hands down. The cost per watt even in very high end equipment is more favorable in SS. Many people it seems are taking low powered tube amps and driving high efficiency speakers with them, which kind of begs a few questions. Firstly, why would you deliberately use something that has an inherently higher noise floor (tubes) to drive a more sensitive speaker where the speaker's sensitivity can more easily reveal the shortcomings (noise floor) of the amplifier? This makes no logical sense to me. Tubes, due to the fact they run much hotter than transistors have an inherently higher thermal noise figure than SS equipment does. If the idea of hi-fi is to get as close to zero background noise and as close to having a straight wire with gain as possible, why would tube equipment even be given a second look? What am I missing here? Tubes add more hum, noise, and distortion to the signal than solid state equipment does but yet many people choose tubes? This is not even considering the huge difference in terms of maintenance costs. I just don't get it.

I listened to the "tubes rule" crowd and had a tube preamp to go with my Boulder SS amp for 10 years. I learned that the tubes actually last half the claimed hours before the sound degrades, then bad sound for months. Five years ago switched to a Boulder preamp that sounded better and there was none of the "Is it time to replace those tubes? . . . How about now?"

I have been told many times over the years that a good tube amp would sound better than the Boulder 3060. I had several very high end tube amps in for audition to see if that was true. The tube amps distorted and smeared the sound. It was not subtle. If you like that sound, and many people do, that is why you buy tube gear. The Boulder SS amp has virtually no distortion/smearing. To me, the Boulder crushed them.

 

[Holmz]

I listened to the "tubes rule" crowd and had a tube preamp to go with my Boulder SS amp for 10 years. I learned that the tubes actually last half the claimed hours before the sound degrades, then bad sound for months. Five years ago switched to a Boulder preamp that sounded better and there was none of the "Is it time to replace those tubes? . . . How about now?"

I have been told many times over the years that a good tube amp would sound better than the Boulder 3060. I had several very high end tube amps in for audition to see if that was true. The tube amps distorted and smeared the sound. It was not subtle. If you like that sound, and many people do, that is why you buy tube gear. The Boulder SS amp has virtually no distortion/smearing. To me, the Boulder crushed them.

But is might be fun to do the Sisyphean task that a boulder can do, just with using a tube amp.

 

[Legolas]

Due to my age I had the benefit of growing up while tube equipment was the only thing there was and then seeing solid state equipment develop and become the state of the art. I don't think that statement is hyperbole in the slightest. Here is my reasoning why I believe that SS equipment is superior in every way to tubes. In terms of pure performance, it measures better than tubes on any parameter you can pick. In terms of cost, SS wins hands down. The cost per watt even in very high end equipment is more favorable in SS. Many people it seems are taking low powered tube amps and driving high efficiency speakers with them, which kind of begs a few questions. Firstly, why would you deliberately use something that has an inherently higher noise floor (tubes) to drive a more sensitive speaker where the speaker's sensitivity can more easily reveal the shortcomings (noise floor) of the amplifier? This makes no logical sense to me. Tubes, due to the fact they run much hotter than transistors have an inherently higher thermal noise figure than SS equipment does. If the idea of hi-fi is to get as close to zero background noise and as close to having a straight wire with gain as possible, why would tube equipment even be given a second look? What am I missing here? Tubes add more hum, noise, and distortion to the signal than solid state equipment does but yet many people choose tubes? This is not even considering the huge difference in terms of maintenance costs. I just don't get it.

Massive subject covered so many times on WBF. IMO tube do something 'organic' or 'natural' to the sound. They tend to (when well implimented) bring the sound back to reality, for a very simple explanation. They have very different distortion to SS, one that sounds more natural to the human ear, and is more acceptable when listened to. IMO leading to a more relaxed listening experience.

Obviously tubes bring their own challenges, a few being heat, cost of tubes, even reliability. It's like having a pet, they need attention. But that can be worth it if you connect with that sound.

I wouldn't go full tubes anymore, but am a fan of tubed preamps and tubed DACs. That gets you part way to the 'tube sound' if there is such a thing, without the hassles and a lot of the cost.

Another route is look at Nelson Pass's SIT power amps, they are heading in the Triode sound direction, and are SS.

A trip to any high end audio show, will tell you why tubes are live and kicking. 100% of the time, the rooms I stay in longest are all tube systems, SETs with Horns are at the top of the list. Wilson and D'Agostino, I am heading for the door...

 

[morricab]

Sorry it was NOT a horn speaker.
Just a regular piston driver speaker.

Had a SET as a kid and a ratty speaker, but I liked it a lot when I was 11.
And I was able to run a crystal set into it as well.
I’ve also had a tube amp that had a switch to do Triode.

There is no doubt that SETs have a following, and there is no doubt that a lot of people like harmonic distortion.

Hoever the OP was talking about “why tubes,” and specifically mentioned noise and distortions.
It is not a requirement that a tube amp has a lot of distortion.
There are many that do not.
People just like the higher distortion ones like a cult.
I’m not sure it makes a great deal of difference though.
Some people can find many different systems that give them joy.

I am running a tube preamp, tube phono-amp, and SS or Class-D power amps.
It sounds fine, and the OP would probably be more inclined towards something like that.
He/They do not NEED to run a SET.

What do you mean you had a SET with a crystal set when you were a kid? Was that in 1925 or something?? What do you mean you had a tube amp that could switch to triode? A SET is a triode by definition. Are you then talking about some PP tube amp that has a Pentode/Triode switch? Honestly, your explanation is very confusing.

Liking SET has nothing to do about liking harmonic distortion. It is about a distortion pattern that the ear/brain can more easily ignore due to the psychoacoustic phenomenon of masking. If distortion is masked, it is inaudible, or in other words its like it is not there at all. I realize this is hard for some people to wrap their brains around but sometimes higher distortion of a certain pattern sounds less distorted and offensive than much lower distortion of a less benign pattern, psychoacoustically speaking.

Also, the whole "Tubes are noisier than transistors" is also BS. I have speakers that are high sensitivity and my amps are essentially silent into those speakers. On my DIY horn setup, I am driving the compression tweeter directly (active crossover, so amp is directly connected to the driver) and it has a sensitivity of 110dB. The amp I use on it is a 2A3 from Silvercore (3.5 watts) and it has only a tiny bit of hiss when you put your ear close to the driver. I have hooked up SS and Class D amps to my Odeons (98dB) that had noticeable hiss at the listening position...my Aries Cerat amps were dead quiet on the same speakers. Same goes for my Horning Eufrodite Ellipse speakers (98dB)...dead quiet with Aries Cerat, Amplifon 42SE, Ayon Crossfire III, Horning SATI amp etc. The Silvercore had a bit of hum, again not really audible at the listening position but the others were very quiet on a speaker with essentially no filter.

I never said anyone needs to run a SET, however, on a compatible speaker, IMO it will sound better than running a SS or Class D amp with tube sources and/or preamp.

 

[morricab]

Massive subject covered so many times on WBF. IMO tube do something 'organic' or 'natural' to the sound. They tend to (when well implimented) bring the sound back to reality, for a very simple explanation. They have very different distortion to SS, one that sounds more natural to the human ear, and is more acceptable when listened to. IMO leading to a more relaxed listening experience.

Obviously tubes bring their own challenges, a few being heat, cost of tubes, even reliability. It's like having a pet, they need attention. But that can be worth it if you connect with that sound.

I wouldn't go full tubes anymore, but am a fan of tubed preamps and tubed DACs. That gets you part way to the 'tube sound' if there is such a thing, without the hassles and a lot of the cost.

Another route is look at Nelson Pass's SIT power amps, they are heading in the Triode sound direction, and are SS.

A trip to any high end audio show, will tell you why tubes are live and kicking. 100% of the time, the rooms I stay in longest are all tube systems, SETs with Horns are at the top of the list. Wilson and D'Agostino, I am heading for the door...

Exactly, if the sound sucked tube gear would have died off a long time ago. At least for SETs and horns, it was the Japanese who kept the spark alive by collecting old Altec, JBL, Tannoy and other western horn speakers and then reintroducing SETs to the world as well. It is clear that they heard the potential beauty in the sound and were not as concerned about commercial success as western companies. Once heard and understood, it is hard to go back to gray, flat sound.

The fact is that rather than suck if done right it brings life to the music that is missing with SS gear. Horns push that further, although it isn't easy to find horns without significant flaws where I can at least understand someone's distaste for that particular horn.