How fussy are current classical recording engineers?

[NorthStar]

There is another equation to all those Classical recordings we're talkin' 'bout here.

And that is the recording machines and the processing and the mixing/mastering itself:
depending on an LP or a CD or an SACD. ...And Analog content versus Digital content (eg.; AAD. ADD, & DDD for CDs).

I find that SACD is a better medium (in general if the recording is done right to begin) for Classical music.
And in both Stereo and Multichannel from that Hybrid SACD.
But again, some record labels are more apt at this because of the recording mixers/engineers who work there; like Telarc (Pentatone), Channel Classics, Sony Classical, and others...

And true, you want some good quality reproducers for the rendering of a piano, a cello, a basson, the percussion, a clarinet, a flute, a violin, ...and all of them in tandem.
Because a full Orchestra needs real powerful musical reproducers (loudspeakers) for maintening that reality, balance, that true presence and power.

Make no mistake; there are some bad Classical recordings out there, but when you find the right ones it all makes sense at the end, and you are rewarded multifold.

I don't visit the Classical music section here; is it a good one? Must be. I'll pay a visit sometime.

 

[NorthStar]

Hey, was that just me, or did WBF just go screwy for the last hour or so ??

Aaah, you got me!! Maestro Masters, an overnight label in Oz in '94, Tchaikovsky, Concerto for Vioin and orchestra, Op.35 : Paganini, ditto, Op.6 ; Philharmonia Slavonica, Pantelli, Munich Symphony O., Capac; Ivan Czerkov, violin; recorded ???. Beautiful violin playing, tonality to die for -- Yehudi, go play with some other toys ...

Frank

Thanks Frank, I'll check it out!

 

[fas42]

What happened to the Evelyn Woodhouse "No bad Recordings" theory of yours? I thought in your world there was no such thing as a bad recording, just gear that wasn't well sorted out or properly fussed over.

Yes, I thought I might get something along those lines ...!! Mark, it's all relative, if I'm listening to a very old recording, that used relatively primitive mic's, etc, my mind makes a mental adjustment to compensate for deficiencies, some very obvious like the mic overloading. If the musical message still comes through, I still want to keep listening intently to what's happening musically, then as far as I'm concerned it's not a bad recording. As a somewhat extreme counter example, several years ago I was listening to a very ambitious setup using ARC Reference 600, Wilson speakers, VPI TT, Benz cartridge: this for the first hour was absolute torture, I was close to digging my fingernails into my legs, thinking about everything but music, just hoping it would be over soon. Now, I could have just put this down to "bad" recordings being played, but the cartridge suspension and the rest of the gear finally stabilised, and there was some lovely music to be heard later on ...

No, I'm talking about how we're now 100 or so years from the first audio recordings, so a few things should have been sorted out: like consistency of sound quality from track to track. A violin if played well has a sweet, searing quality to it; it feels like it's ready to slice the top of your head off, but in a nice way! If the same instrument is played by a beginner it has a turgid, dead, yet screetchy tone -- I'm talking about the live, acoustic sound here. Now, in this album that was the impression going from track to track, every minute to two minutes. Expert, incompetent, reasonable, barely tolerable, superb, etc, etc.

So I'm talking about the impression the album creates listening to it, as if the sound engineer couldn't be bothered to do more than the bare minimum in laying down the music ...

Frank

 

[mep]

As a somewhat extreme counter example, several years ago I was listening to a very ambitious setup using ARC Reference 600, Wilson speakers, VPI TT, Benz cartridge: this for the first hour was absolute torture, I was close to digging my fingernails into my legs, thinking about everything but music, just hoping it would be over soon. Now, I could have just put this down to "bad" recordings being played, but the cartridge suspension and the rest of the gear finally stabilised, and there was some lovely music to be heard later on ...
Frank

So for the first hour your HTIAB would have sounded better than the ARC, VPI, Wilson, and Benz gear that was making you feel like you were being tortured??

 

[MylesBAstor]

So for the first hour your HTIAB would have sounded better than the ARC, VPI, Wilson, and Benz gear that was making you feel like you were being tortured??

I'd also add that most cartridges take 30-60 mins to reach optimal sound. And the turntable bearing, motor, etc. have to also warm up. But I've never heard a VPI with a Benz sound screachy even cold.

 

[fas42]

As an example of a difficult recording, also just from the library, Beethoven String Qts Op. 130 & 133: Teldec, '84, Vermeer Qt. This series was, and is, heavily panned by most music critics and when the system is not on song, very heavy going. Extremely dry acoustic, getting the direct sound right is crucial!

So this is a recording can go from totally intolerable, to being very engaging and rewarding; it's like balancing on a razor blade ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

So for the first hour your HTIAB would have sounded better than the ARC, VPI, Wilson, and Benz gear that was making you feel like you were being tortured??

Exactly. Much, much better. Wilson WATT/Puppy's take no prisoners if not driven with a clean signal, and that's not what they were getting. Luckily, the red wine was flowing from the word go, and that helped the situation!

The owner had done all the right things, full room treatment, cables carefully dressed, elevated above the carpet, and he was the one who ventured the fact that the Benz needed an hour's running to give of its best.

Frank

 

[mep]

Exactly. Much, much better. Wilson WATT/Puppy's take no prisoners if not driven with a clean signal, and that's not what they were getting. Luckily, the red wine was flowing from the word go, and that helped the situation!

The owner had done all the right things, full room treatment, cables carefully dressed, elevated above the carpet, and he was the one who ventured the fact that the Benz needed an hour's running to give of its best.

Frank

Even stone cold, the system you described would have blown the old HTIAB so far in the weeds you would have needed a search party and bloodhounds to find it.

 

[NorthStar]

Frank, what brand of HTIB are you using?

A generic one or is it too personal (confidentially private)? If so I understand.

 

[fas42]

Frank, what brand of HTIB are you using?

A generic one or is it too personal (confidentially private)? If so I understand.

Tsk, tsk, Bob, it's all noted in the Member's Gallery thread, A Search for Truth and Tonality, you've added a few comments to that already: just read from the beginning! Coincidentally, I've just added a quick throwaway there ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Even stone cold, the system you described would have blown the old HTIAB so far in the weeds you would have needed a search party and bloodhounds to find it.

Yes, one would have thought so, but this was before the HT came on the scene, I was using DIY gainclones at the time, which did some things better, and some things worse than the current setup. The ARC system could do volume of course, but it certainly suffered from the good vs. "bad" recording syndrome: after a superb David Oistrakh rendition, he put on London Philharmonic doing ballet music and that got my teeth grinding again.

My headache is that I'm very sensitive to this low level distortion thing, more than a little bit of that and my interest goes out the door at full speed ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Tsk, tsk, Bob, it's all noted in the Member's Gallery thread, A Search for Truth and Tonality, you've added a few comments to that already: just read from the beginning! Coincidentally, I've just added a quick throwaway there ...

Frank

Are you truly serious Frank? ...A Philips DVD/Receiver MRD200 HTiB?

Is that good enough to be a citizen of the planet Earth?

* I knew I was very slow sometimes to catch things up, but today is the most revealing discovery of them all! Lol

 

[fas42]

Are you truly serious Frank? ...A Philips DVD/Receiver MRD200 HTiB?

Is that good enough to be a citizen of the planet Earth?

* I knew I was very slow sometimes to catch things up, but today is the most revealing discovery of them all! Lol

Yep, now you know why they give me such a hard time here!!

But seriously, it's most definitely meant as a test bench, if you can get this to perform you know you're doing some things right. The key thing is to get the power supply right, which I've done: effectively it now behaves like a 20W Krell, which means that if the speakers are efficient there is no trouble getting dynamics in the room and the house, I have absolutely no trouble getting my ears to ring in a matter of minutes with a heavily compressed pop recording. As a contrast, a collection of new age "noodling", as Tim calls it, Polar Shift, throws out a massive soundstage which takes over the house ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

But Frank, "... a 20W Krell, ..." And the speakers, they're probably made of plastic or cardboard ...
- "... compressed Pop recording."? Yup, mycupate. Lol
- "... massive soundstage which takes over the house ..." Really? ...Do you live in a small condo?

- And "But seriously, ...". Ya, I guess so... lol again.

* Frank, nobody's giving you a hard time (even me, I'm just speaking my good humor piece of heart); you are a true fighter, a survivalist, a technical audio poet, a knowledgeable audio type of guru too, ...and I don't judge you by the electronica gear you own (by the music you listen to, that yeah, but always positively), but by what you truly say and believe in what you're sayin'.
You can entertain audiophilically, and you bring many good points too at several reprises.

You've been there, and you're still at it even bigger than ever before.
Hey, that won't change a thing on my perception towards you, not at all; respect and equilibrium are still the main audio menu. You read a lot, I can tell, and you share a lot as well.

Frank, be you, love yourself first, always, and love all the others around you as you love yourself.

Cheers,
Bob

 

[fas42]

Bob, you're a poet, and you probably don't know it ...

I guess most people to some degree get hung up on name brands, if the label has some cachet or history then you immediately think there must be something special about it, it's just human nature. But if you come to the table with an engineer's perspective your first job is to see and hear what is really there, not a fantasy based on how thick the front panel metal is. I was being kind to Krell, the last big mutha one I heard in someone's home sounded like a pile of sh!t: glaring, obnoxious, zero "musicality" -- probably every electrolytic cap in it was way past its use by date, but many people would say, look at the faceplate, it must be good stuff!

So my perspective is to assess what's really under the hood, and make the best of it. That's how learning occurs, and progress is made. And if I try really hard, I could even rescue that crappy sounding Krell ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

I just can't resist! I like you Frank, and I like you a lot too.

By the way Franky, I was a top gun at my high school in Philosophy, Poetry, and Orations.
...Among other things like Arts History, Cinema History, Graphic Design, Painting, and Creative Imagination.

And during lunch hour, at school, when I was only 15, I was entertaining my other schoolmates by playing my very unique style on my guitar.

How can I disagree with what you just said avove?

 

[NorthStar]

Best Classical Music Recordings...

I'm in search... I'm in search of the very best seat in the Concert Hall...
I'm in search... I'm in search of the very best Classical Music performance...

I'm still in search...

I'm in search of the very best Audio Forum of the entire Cyber Space...
I'm in search of the very best spot, my place in this world...

...And when I find it, every single one of my posts will radiate with full life energy and free wisdom.

 

[mep]

Yep, now you know why they give me such a hard time here!!
The key thing is to get the power supply right, which I've done: effectively it now behaves like a 20W Krell, which means that if the speakers are efficient there is no trouble getting dynamics in the room and the house, I have absolutely no trouble getting my ears to ring in a matter of minutes with a heavily compressed pop recording. As a contrast, a collection of new age "noodling", as Tim calls it, Polar Shift, throws out a massive soundstage which takes over the house ...
Frank

Now your amp is a pure Class “A” 20 watt Krell eh? Will wonders never cease. What an amazing piece of kit you have with your Phillips HTIAB. It is capable of filling your entire house with the sound of live music. The sound doesn’t get louder as you get closer to your speakers. You can stick your ear on the tweeter and can’t hear any sound coming out of it. The list of the laws of physics being shattered in your house by the HTIAB just goes on and on. Oddly, none of these stories starts with “Once Upon A Time…”

Of course the only way that any of this could be remotely true is if you sold your soul to the devil in exchange for the HTIAB being able to pull off all of the claims you have made. Maybe we should rename HTIAB to Beelzebub in a Box (BIAB).

 

[Manelus]

Back to recording quality, my best bet are:
Pentatone, Channel Classics and BIS.
BIS if I had to choose only one.

 

[fas42]

Now your amp is a pure Class “A” 20 watt Krell eh? Will wonders never cease. What an amazing piece of kit you have with your Phillips HTIAB. It is capable of filling your entire house with the sound of live music. The sound doesn’t get louder as you get closer to your speakers. You can stick your ear on the tweeter and can’t hear any sound coming out of it.

Mark, when was the last time you listened up close to acoustic music? That's exactly how your ear/brain works when dealing with live sound, not PA pulp: if someone is playing a real saxophone you can hear him clear as a bell from the other end of the house, and the player hasn't got a 1,000W air pressure pump in his mouth. You can then walk up to him and stick your ear a few inches away from the body of the instrument, and will be aware of a very intense sound pressure which pulses through your head, completely overwhelming all other noise. If I were to spin you around a couple of times in that same position so you didn't know which way you were facing, I think you would have great difficulty pointing accurately to where the instrument was.

So that's how the ear/brain works with the real thing. So the point of an audio setup is to replicate that experience. And no nonsense about loudspeakers and music instruments being different things. Sound waves are sound waves, once they leave whatever has produced them the air has no knowledge of what produced that disturbance of itself, so neither should your ears ...

It's as simple as that.

Frank