Has vinyl playback technology gone about as far as it can go?

[Another Johnson]

Really, the cartridge does “extract the information,” but the extraction is corrupted by the arm and platter. The difference between one turntable and another really comes down to how much data corruption each inflicts.

 

[Another Johnson]

Ivor Tiefenbrun understood this well when he presented his critical path for a TT. Platter suspension drive first. Then arm and its mounting. Then cartridge. He reasoned that it made no sense to put a super cartridge on a mediocre arm, mounted to a mediocre TT. The information extracted would not reflect the capabilities of the cartridge.

Clearaudio had the same critical path hierarchy, but solved every problem differently from Tiefenbrun.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The way I look at it, Mike, is that the cartridge is extracting the information and your turntable without the active platform was corrupting that information because it allowed vibrations to affect the reading of the grooves.

objectively so might yours. without extensive investigations you would never know for sure.

Once you sorted that out, the information that the cartridge transcribes is closer to what is embedded in the grooves.

agree.

To Tim’s point, the frequency portion of the waveform is encoded in the grooves by the cutterhead (excluding a couple steps during the making of the record). My understanding is that that information is already in the record. Yes the platter must rotate at the correct speed for the information to sound right but the turntable is not creating the information or extracting it. The turntable simply provides the correct environment for the information to be extracted by the cartridge. At least that’s the way I look at it. I’m happy to be corrected.

agree. you are right. but with mechanical things there is always a little bit better available. the diminishing returns are still diminishing. the struggle is not over. but maybe thinking about it is over. which is the best we can do.

 

[PeterA]

objectively so might yours. without extensive investigations you would never know for sure.

agree.

agree. you are right. but with mechanical things there is always a little bit better available. the diminishing returns are still diminishing. the struggle is not over. but maybe thinking about it is over. which is the best we can do.

Yes, of course. I have investigated, and I know that my turntable can be improved upon because I have heard it from another turntable. All you need to do is listen and find a better example where the information from the same records is presented with less corruption.

The information is already in the grooves. Designers are still looking for ways to extract more of it, and then present it with less degradation.

 

[tima]

To Tim’s point, the frequency portion of the waveform is encoded in the grooves by the cutterhead (excluding a couple steps during the making of the record). My understanding is that that information is already in the record. Yes the platter must rotate at the correct speed for the information to sound right but the turntable is not creating the information or extracting it. The turntable simply provides the correct environment for the information to be extracted by the cartridge. At least that’s the way I look at it. I’m happy to be corrected.

I agree the turntable is not creating what the recording process and record production already did. The cutter head spins out a single thread that is the groove. The groove is the tangible result of the production process and represents potential.

I do not offer correction but my perspective. Where we may differ is over how to consider time in the analog process. As I wrote in my Monaco 2.0 review: "Before any other component comes into play, he who controls time controls the source, and he who controls the source rules the vinyl universe."

Music only occurs over the passing of time. Rhythm and beat are two of the many ways time expresses itself in music. When you play a record (extract information as you say) your analog front end is recreating the signal laid down in vinyl during the production process. That signal creation is continuous, it occurs not all at once but is a sequential thread. Time is essential to continuity and sequence.

Where does time come from during the signal creation? It comes from the rotating turntable -- the analog system's clock. From my perspective signal creation in time (thanks to the rotating turntable) is more than the environment, it is one of the necessary conditions for continuing the analog chain as it actualizes the potential of the record. Another necesary condition is the cartridge. The nexus of the rotating record and the cartridge creates the 'spark of life' that is the electrical signal.

 

[astrotoy]

The two greatest Decca engineers, Kenneth Wilkinson and Arthur Lilley, both decided to retire when Decca switched to recording in digital. That also coincided with the death of Decca's founder Edward Lewis and the sale of Decca to Polygram. This also led to the closing of the great New Malden pressing plant and moving Decca's record pressing to Holland (which according to Decca engineer John Dunkerley was a major step backwards in pressing quality). Larry

 

[Another Johnson]

Music only occurs over the passing of time. Rhythm and beat are two of the many ways time expresses itself in music. When you play a record (extract information as you say) your analog front end is recreating the signal laid down in vinyl during the production process. That signal creation is continuous, it occurs not all at once but is a sequential thread. Time is essential to continuity and sequence.

Every equipment reviewer in the UK would have agreed 45 years ago. The question for a turntable comparison was “Which one gets your toes tapping?”

Toe tapping is the listener’s synching with the music. If one TT gets your toes tapping and another does not, it obvious which one should win the “bake off.”

Relevant today or not, this whole idea built the House of Linn.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, of course. I have investigated, and I know that my turntable can be improved upon because I have heard it from another turntable. All you need to do is listen and find a better example where the information from the same records is presented with less corruption.

The information is already in the grooves. Designers are still looking for ways to extract more of it, and then present it with less degradation.

Your videos show an extremely high positive impact from the DST compared to any of your previous cartridge or turntable changes