Gryphon Audio Pendragon

Jones99

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2017
16
24
110
Australia
Yours were possibly the last pair though, as mentioned earlier ours were the last pair from an overseas dealer.

We'll be moving the whole setup coming June, he's moving home so we'll be packing them back up sometime soon. in related news, the Gryphon Mephisto and the pre-amp have been sold and replaced with CH precision pre-amp and power amp. So the whole setup will be CH precision. (the pre and power amp won't be removed from their crates until everything is moved over)

Cheers.

Hi PKN as another Pendragon owner (picture above from Bruce D is my setup from a while ago) do you mind if I post some thoughts and experimentation I have done over the years? Not a lot of owners I know of so I guess this would be the Pendragon owners thread . Hopefully we can swap ideas and learn a few things to help improve our systems further.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
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Hi PKN as another Pendragon owner (picture above from Bruce D is my setup from a while ago) do you mind if I post some thoughts and experimentation I have done over the years? Not a lot of owners I know of so I guess this would be the Pendragon owners thread . Hopefully we can swap ideas and learn a few things to help improve our systems further.
Look forward to reading about your adventures with the Pendragons!
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,347
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
Hi PKN as another Pendragon owner (picture above from Bruce D is my setup from a while ago) do you mind if I post some thoughts and experimentation I have done over the years? Not a lot of owners I know of so I guess this would be the Pendragon owners thread . Hopefully we can swap ideas and learn a few things to help improve our systems further.

Please do, Grant!
 

Jones99

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2017
16
24
110
Australia
Apologies for the delay in response …..looks like PKN has gone offline so will assume he will not mind adding comments. I have owned the Pendragons for over 3 years. My system in that time has changed considerably, room not so much but will come back to that later.
My original setup with the Pendragons was an all Gryphon System with Pandora Kalliope , Mephisto Stereo . Kalliope made way for a dCS Vivaldi 2 full stack . Mephisto Stereo turned into Mephisto Solos and finally dCS stack and Pandora were replaced with MSB Select 2.
System is pretty settled now with Pendragons, Mephisto Solos, MSB Select 2 DAC with mono bases ,Femto 33 clock , matching Select CD player with power base. Cables are all Goebel.
I am a digital guy but do admire vinyl from afar. Many a vinyl pusher has tried to sway me to the dark side but all to no avail .."elevator music only in my system."
The Pendragon has been my first 4 towers speaker system and the first time I have owned ribbons. Previous speakers were all big cone driven speakers. The Pendragon for me due to my misunderstanding of ribbons and 4 tower systems has been my biggest frustration and ultimately my most rewarding speaker.
Before I head into my experimentation with positioning, I will touch on my listening room. It is a quite a large room but not without its challenges. It is an upstairs room on a floating floor. It is 8.5m (28foot ) wide room ,high raked ceiling which taper down and the room extends out 12m (36.5 feet) however the listening chair can only be placed 5m(18 feet) from the front wall. Room is thick carpeted with minimal window treatments except the curtains behind the Pendragons which have a little more volume. I have 2 ASC bass traps in the 2 front corners.
Room is not a dedicated listening space




My previous speakers to the Pendragons were Dynaudio Evidence Masters. Found an old photo for giggles and reference to how my room and system has changed


The Pendragons are very different. to the Dyn Masters The woofer tower is an active setup with 8x 8inch woofers with 1000 class ab amplifier , sealed doing 200hz to 16Hz. The Ribbon tower holding a 75 inch Bohlender Graebener doing 200hz-16khz and AMT tweeters doing above 16khz I initially set the Pendragons up in a typical big box speaker arrangement similar to the position of the EMs. As per the manual I had the woofer towers on the inside and ribbon towers on the outside. I did not pay too much attention to positioning of the towers and had little to no tow in. The sound was underwhelming, incoherent and not what I heard from the previous audition of this speaker system. I then proceeded on my learning journey of 4 tower/ribbon speakers.
After then moving the woofer towers to the outside ,reading the manual and looking at other setups of Pendragon I quite quickly came to the conclusion that to start moving toward a previous sound I was used to the Woofer Towers needed to be on the outside of the ribbon towers and the AMT tweeters positioned toward the middle of the room.
The speakers orientation/layout across the room was now decided which then led me to start trying to find the best position for the 2 towers each side in regards to depth into the room ,width apart of ribbon and woofer tower on one side , width apart of opposing woofer towers and Ribbon Tower from centre , toe in, lean forward/back/sideways. The different variables are endless and I have learnt the smallest of differences can mean the difference of ordinary/good to sublime.
The task of looking for ideal spots for the towers lead me to employ some tools to help me to try and remove some variables.

Using the above tools, I have had a reference grid-line indicating the center of the room and also the depth of the speakers from the front wall
The other handheld laser gives me exact distances from my listening position to the individual towers.

After much moving current position is as below



I have learnt everything comes at a cost….some general rules of thumb I have come to the conclusion from my experimentation/listening
  • 1/3 rule works for me even with my short listening position
  • Lean back of the ribbon tower lifts the sound stage but also gives a more laid back softened sound but this is relevant to my seating which is quite low. If you are after a more immediate attacking sound neutral to slight lean forward may help.I have settled on neutral.
  • The aiming of the woofer towers directly to the ears or just behind is my preferred toe in
  • The aiming of the Ribbon Tower depends on your tastes. The less it is toed in the more exciting the sound can be but it can head towards harshness in my room. If I feel it is a little hot I increase the toe in. Less toe in will also increase that wall to wall sound but you will lose a little pin point to point accuracy
  • Coupling of the towers is critical and when you achieve this sound ,everything seems to magnify and drop to into place. The comment that I feel and that others relay is that it just sounds “real”
  • Position within millimeters and absolute balance on all towers are critical and change the sound dramatically.
  • Spiking of the Woofer tower and Ribbon Tower lifted the sound immensely in my setup. Bass improved, coherence ,nuances ,airiness and clarity also improved. I have thick carpet so may explain my large improvements even though the towers are so heavy . I run Gryphon Atlas spikes on the Ribbon Towers and custom-made disks for the Woofer Towers due to their weight. The spikes easily allow me to ensure the towers are balance or leaned to exactly where I want them.
  • In my room I do not need heavy room treatments but the addition of heavier curtains behind the speakers did improve the sound to my liking by allowing me to not have to toe the Ribbon towers in as much. This lead to a much larger wall of sound without over exciting at higher frequencies at higher volumes
  • For my listening preferences the woofer tower and ribbon tower need to be the same distance from the listening position – this generally has coincided with best coupling of the towers and matches the Pendragon manual .....who would have thought...
  • Q setting A is my preferred choice and the most dynamic. I initially found that the Q setting affected bass mostly but as I found better positioning of the towers my understanding and to my ears it affects the blending /crossover of the 2 towers. A the most dynamic and alive while B and C soften the attack. No right or wrong fine tuning to tastes…
  • Even though I knew the design of Pendragon differs from the Genesis speaker systems (which I do like a lot ) ….I did try briefly a similar setup with the woofer towers behind the Ribbon towers but I could never get it to sound right .It always seemed to lack coherence and the timing of the music seemed off to me ,exaggerated or lacking in certain areas. My limitation of my room depth to listening chair could have also impacted this, but it was worth trying even though I suspected it would not work well.

I am under no illusions that I have found the perfect spot for the Pendragons towers and hope to get some feedback from other Pendragon owners or other users who run 4 tower systems which may lead to me extracting even more from my setup ....... at the moment though I am quite content and enjoying the music.
 

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cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,325
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Pleasanton, CA
I have had and set up recently the ribbon portions of the Pendagron (bought them from a guy on the internet who bought them on closeout of Bohlender Greabner/Wisdom audio. He had saved them for DIY but never got around to to it so sold them).

I just 'clip' them onto the midrange ribbon aperture of my Analysis Epsilon, and the magnets center them and hold them in place. They are toed in a bit and tilted back a bit in line with the anatomy of the Epsilon. I currently have the crossover points for the 75 inch ribbon at 300Hz and 7KHz. I am powering the 75 inch ribbon currently with a 300b drive stage and a Wavac MD 572 single ended triode amp @ 50 watts/ch nominally. I would peg the 75 inch ribbon at 90db efficiency or maybe even more (without a notch filter). The Wavac seems to have a lot more power than it needs. I also tried the First Watt M2 in this slot @ 25 watts per channel, and it also seems to be more power than the big ribbon needs.

Four subwoofers handle the lower two octaves, the Analysis bass panel handles the next two octaves, the 75 inch ribbon handles the next four and a half octaves, and the foil tweeter array handles the highest one and a half octaves.

So far, I have not found them finicky and they have given me the dynamic extension I wanted on the midrange. Unfortunately, they are even more addictive than my already great sounding setup, and give wonderful vertical imaging. Room is generally 19x13.5x10-16 with a dogleg for appx. 3500cubic feet for the room. These ribbons are quite the items.

It's an asset to have most of the great extent of the phased midrange in a single driver like that. It's worked out better than I thought. IMG_0487.jpg IMG_0488.jpeg
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
GREAT POST!!! I note that the positioning of your speakers certainly 'appears' to be similar to how Gryphon has set up their Pendragons before in various rooms. Fantastic system! Would love to know more about how you came to buy all Goebel cable? What else did you audition/try?

Apologies for the delay in response …..looks like PKN has gone offline so will assume he will not mind adding comments. I have owned the Pendragons for over 3 years. My system in that time has changed considerably, room not so much but will come back to that later.
My original setup with the Pendragons was an all Gryphon System with Pandora Kalliope , Mephisto Stereo . Kalliope made way for a dCS Vivaldi 2 full stack . Mephisto Stereo turned into Mephisto Solos and finally dCS stack and Pandora were replaced with MSB Select 2.
System is pretty settled now with Pendragons, Mephisto Solos, MSB Select 2 DAC with mono bases ,Femto 33 clock , matching Select CD player with power base. Cables are all Goebel.
I am a digital guy but do admire vinyl from afar. Many a vinyl pusher has tried to sway me to the dark side but all to no avail .."elevator music only in my system."
The Pendragon has been my first 4 towers speaker system and the first time I have owned ribbons. Previous speakers were all big cone driven speakers. The Pendragon for me due to my misunderstanding of ribbons and 4 tower systems has been my biggest frustration and ultimately my most rewarding speaker.
Before I head into my experimentation with positioning, I will touch on my listening room. It is a quite a large room but not without its challenges. It is an upstairs room on a floating floor. It is 8.5m (28foot ) wide room ,high raked ceiling which taper down and the room extends out 12m (36.5 feet) however the listening chair can only be placed 5m(18 feet) from the front wall. Room is thick carpeted with minimal window treatments except the curtains behind the Pendragons which have a little more volume. I have 2 ASC bass traps in the 2 front corners.
Room is not a dedicated listening space




My previous speakers to the Pendragons were Dynaudio Evidence Masters. Found an old photo for giggles and reference to how my room and system has changed


The Pendragons are very different. to the Dyn Masters The woofer tower is an active setup with 8x 8inch woofers with 1000 class ab amplifier , sealed doing 200hz to 16Hz. The Ribbon tower holding a 75 inch Bohlender Graebener doing 200hz-16khz and AMT tweeters doing above 16khz I initially set the Pendragons up in a typical big box speaker arrangement similar to the position of the EMs. As per the manual I had the woofer towers on the inside and ribbon towers on the outside. I did not pay too much attention to positioning of the towers and had little to no tow in. The sound was underwhelming, incoherent and not what I heard from the previous audition of this speaker system. I then proceeded on my learning journey of 4 tower/ribbon speakers.
After then moving the woofer towers to the outside ,reading the manual and looking at other setups of Pendragon I quite quickly came to the conclusion that to start moving toward a previous sound I was used to the Woofer Towers needed to be on the outside of the ribbon towers and the AMT tweeters positioned toward the middle of the room.
The speakers orientation/layout across the room was now decided which then led me to start trying to find the best position for the 2 towers each side in regards to depth into the room ,width apart of ribbon and woofer tower on one side , width apart of opposing woofer towers and Ribbon Tower from centre , toe in, lean forward/back/sideways. The different variables are endless and I have learnt the smallest of differences can mean the difference of ordinary/good to sublime.
The task of looking for ideal spots for the towers lead me to employ some tools to help me to try and remove some variables.

Using the above tools, I have had a reference grid-line indicating the center of the room and also the depth of the speakers from the front wall
The other handheld laser gives me exact distances from my listening position to the individual towers.

After much moving current position is as below



I have learnt everything comes at a cost….some general rules of thumb I have come to the conclusion from my experimentation/listening
  • 1/3 rule works for me even with my short listening position
  • Lean back of the ribbon tower lifts the sound stage but also gives a more laid back softened sound but this is relevant to my seating which is quite low. If you are after a more immediate attacking sound neutral to slight lean forward may help.I have settled on neutral.
  • The aiming of the woofer towers directly to the ears or just behind is my preferred toe in
  • The aiming of the Ribbon Tower depends on your tastes. The less it is toed in the more exciting the sound can be but it can head towards harshness in my room. If I feel it is a little hot I increase the toe in. Less toe in will also increase that wall to wall sound but you will lose a little pin point to point accuracy
  • Coupling of the towers is critical and when you achieve this sound ,everything seems to magnify and drop to into place. The comment that I feel and that others relay is that it just sounds “real”
  • Position within millimeters and absolute balance on all towers are critical and change the sound dramatically.
  • Spiking of the Woofer tower and Ribbon Tower lifted the sound immensely in my setup. Bass improved, coherence ,nuances ,airiness and clarity also improved. I have thick carpet so may explain my large improvements even though the towers are so heavy . I run Gryphon Atlas spikes on the Ribbon Towers and custom-made disks for the Woofer Towers due to their weight. The spikes easily allow me to ensure the towers are balance or leaned to exactly where I want them.
  • In my room I do not need heavy room treatments but the addition of heavier curtains behind the speakers did improve the sound to my liking by allowing me to not have to toe the Ribbon towers in as much. This lead to a much larger wall of sound without over exciting at higher frequencies at higher volumes
  • For my listening preferences the woofer tower and ribbon tower need to be the same distance from the listening position – this generally has coincided with best coupling of the towers and matches the Pendragon manual .....who would have thought...
  • Q setting A is my preferred choice and the most dynamic. I initially found that the Q setting affected bass mostly but as I found better positioning of the towers my understanding and to my ears it affects the blending /crossover of the 2 towers. A the most dynamic and alive while B and C soften the attack. No right or wrong fine tuning to tastes…
  • Even though I knew the design of Pendragon differs from the Genesis speaker systems (which I do like a lot ) ….I did try briefly a similar setup with the woofer towers behind the Ribbon towers but I could never get it to sound right .It always seemed to lack coherence and the timing of the music seemed off to me ,exaggerated or lacking in certain areas. My limitation of my room depth to listening chair could have also impacted this, but it was worth trying even though I suspected it would not work well.

I am under no illusions that I have found the perfect spot for the Pendragons towers and hope to get some feedback from other Pendragon owners or other users who run 4 tower systems which may lead to me extracting even more from my setup ....... at the moment though I am quite content and enjoying the music.
 

Jones99

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2017
16
24
110
Australia
I have had and set up recently the ribbon portions of the Pendagron (bought them from a guy on the internet who bought them on closeout of Bohlender Greabner/Wisdom audio. He had saved them for DIY but never got around to to it so sold them).

I just 'clip' them onto the midrange ribbon aperture of my Analysis Epsilon, and the magnets center them and hold them in place. They are toed in a bit and tilted back a bit in line with the anatomy of the Epsilon. I currently have the crossover points for the 75 inch ribbon at 300Hz and 7KHz. I am powering the 75 inch ribbon currently with a 300b drive stage and a Wavac MD 572 single ended triode amp @ 50 watts/ch nominally. I would peg the 75 inch ribbon at 90db efficiency or maybe even more (without a notch filter). The Wavac seems to have a lot more power than it needs. I also tried the First Watt M2 in this slot @ 25 watts per channel, and it also seems to be more power than the big ribbon needs.

Four subwoofers handle the lower two octaves, the Analysis bass panel handles the next two octaves, the 75 inch ribbon handles the next four and a half octaves, and the foil tweeter array handles the highest one and a half octaves.

So far, I have not found them finicky and they have given me the dynamic extension I wanted on the midrange. Unfortunately, they are even more addictive than my already great sounding setup, and give wonderful vertical imaging. Room is generally 19x13.5x10-16 with a dogleg for appx. 3500cubic feet for the room. These ribbons are quite the items.

It's an asset to have most of the great extent of the phased midrange in a single driver like that. It's worked out better than I thought. View attachment 56630 View attachment 56631
Pretty sure you may have this but see attached details for the RD75. Much admiration for the DIY setup I am sure it is very impressive. I have never taken the felt dust covers off but may have to give it a try. Yes it is a shame B&G are no longer making drivers ...I suspect it may have been a factor in Gryphon developing Koda sooner than expected.
rd_ribbons.pdf
 

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Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Beverly Hills, CA
Dear Grant,

Thank you very, very much for this extremely detailed and thoughtful description of your system and the evolution of the positioning of the Pendragon towers. Obviously this is personally valuable to me as I will use your experience to aid my positioning endeavors.

Many component and system adjustment elements of this hobby I don’t have the patience for. But I actually am looking forward to understanding how the towers perform in my future listening room and I am looking forward to fine-tuning their locations over many months if not years.

Do you think the spikes made such an improvement in your situation because of the floating floor? Do you think the spikes would be as advantageous on a floor made of wood planks over concrete slab?

What measurement device is on the tripod in the top half of your photo of tools?

What has been your experience with the air
motion tweeter level adjustment? What setting did you settle up on?

Thank you, again, for posting your detailed thoughts!

PS: Are you at liberty to tell us the other speaker system you were considering before you resolved to get the Pendragons? (LL21 would find this interesting.)
 
Last edited:

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,347
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
I have had and set up recently the ribbon portions of the Pendagron (bought them from a guy on the internet who bought them on closeout of Bohlender Greabner/Wisdom audio. He had saved them for DIY but never got around to to it so sold them).

I just 'clip' them onto the midrange ribbon aperture of my Analysis Epsilon, and the magnets center them and hold them in place. They are toed in a bit and tilted back a bit in line with the anatomy of the Epsilon. I currently have the crossover points for the 75 inch ribbon at 300Hz and 7KHz. I am powering the 75 inch ribbon currently with a 300b drive stage and a Wavac MD 572 single ended triode amp @ 50 watts/ch nominally. I would peg the 75 inch ribbon at 90db efficiency or maybe even more (without a notch filter). The Wavac seems to have a lot more power than it needs. I also tried the First Watt M2 in this slot @ 25 watts per channel, and it also seems to be more power than the big ribbon needs.

Four subwoofers handle the lower two octaves, the Analysis bass panel handles the next two octaves, the 75 inch ribbon handles the next four and a half octaves, and the foil tweeter array handles the highest one and a half octaves.

So far, I have not found them finicky and they have given me the dynamic extension I wanted on the midrange. Unfortunately, they are even more addictive than my already great sounding setup, and give wonderful vertical imaging. Room is generally 19x13.5x10-16 with a dogleg for appx. 3500cubic feet for the room. These ribbons are quite the items.

It's an asset to have most of the great extent of the phased midrange in a single driver like that. It's worked out better than I thought. View attachment 56630 View attachment 56631


The GB ribbons just snapped perfectly into place on your Epsilons? Is it just coincidental that the existing ribbon apertures were the right size to accommodate the GB ribbons?

What ribbon came originally with the Epsilons?

How would you compare and contrast the sound of the GB ribbons versus the sound of the original Epsilon ribbons?

I like big Analysis Audio speakers a lot.

I think your system with the subwoofers is extremely interesting, and very much in line with what I personally like. In essence you are inserting the magnetic planar bass panels where the Gryphon woofer towers would take over, and then using dynamic drivers in subwoofer mode below the bass panels. Putting it another way you are dividing between your subwoofers and planar bass panels the frequency range which would be handled entirely by the woofer towers of the Pendragons.

Do you have to disconnect any part of the planar bass panel of the Epsilons, or is that bass panel a single driver?

It is interesting that you are getting good performance for 50 watts. That is far less power than Grant uses or I will be using on that ribbon.

PS: If all this were on a blackboard I actually think it could be very interesting to supplement the lower frequency range of the Pendragon ribbon with a magnetic planar bass panel playing up to 300 or 400 or 500 Hz (or cross over to the ribbon driver at that frequency instead of at 200 Hz).
 
Last edited:

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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LL21, yes indeed — every Pendragon set-up I have ever seen in photos follows Gryphon’s recommendation about keeping the towers on the same radius from the listening person’s head. Interestingly Evolution Acoustics prescribes the same solution for the MM7s (and MikeL follows it, I believe).

I was going to ask Mr. Jones that cable question as well!
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Grant,

I also have great respect for Gary Koh’s big Genesis Technologies Designs. I believe Flemming had that speaker in mind when he set out to design his vision of a simpler and more contemporary version of the Infinity IRS V.

I continue to find very interesting the different design decisions Gary made in his speakers and Flemming made in the Pendragon: different crossover points, different utilization of drivers, different woofer design, different woofer amplifier topology, different philosophy of adjustability, etc.
 

Jones99

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2017
16
24
110
Australia
Dear Grant,

Thank you very, very much for this extremely detailed and thoughtful description of your system and the evolution of the positioning of the Pendragon towers. Obviously this is personally valuable to me as I will use your experience to aid my positioning endeavors.

Many component and system adjustment elements of this hobby I don’t have the patience for. But I actually am looking forward to understanding how the towers perform in my future listening room and I am looking forward to fine-tuning their locations over many months if not years.

Do you think the spikes made such an improvement in your situation because of the floating floor? Do you think the spikes would be as advantageous on a floor made of wood planks over concrete slab?

What measurement device is on the tripod in the top half of your photo of tools?

Thank you, again, for posting your detailed thoughts!

PS: Are you at liberty to tell us the other speaker system you were considering before you resolved to get the Pendragons? (LL21 would find this interesting.)
Hi Ron
The device is not a measurement device but rather puts laser grid-lines through my room which I can reference to. I tried to take a picture of the grid-lines but had no luck. I will try again. The device is a Bosch GLL 3 80 P ...I have found it very useful.

The spikes have been a revelation for me but my thick carpet and floating floor is not ideal for leveling and providing a stable platform....for your room I am not so sure it will be required. To balance my towers I struggled with the standard feet I think they will be fine in your case but worth a try when you have found an ideal position to see if you can ring more performance out of the Pens

When I was looking for new speakers I listened to most of the flagships from Wilson,Focal,MBL,Marten,Rockport,Magico,Martin Logan, Avant Garde etc My final short list of speakers were the Rockport Arrakis ,Magico Q7 Mk2 and the Gryphon Pendragon. The Pens won out in the end but I know I would have been happy with Arrakis such an impressive speaker , still brings back fond memories of auditioning these beasts. If I move on from the Pendragons one day and I go back to a traditional box speaker I suspect it will be a Rockport.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,347
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
Grant,

What are the “felt dust covers” to which you refer?
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,347
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
Hi Ron
The device is not a measurement device but rather puts laser grid-lines through my room which I can reference to. I tried to take a picture of the grid-lines but had no luck. I will try again. The device is a Bosch GLL 3 80 P ...I have found it very useful.

The spikes have been a revelation for me but my thick carpet and floating floor is not ideal for leveling and providing a stable platform....for your room I am not so sure it will be required. To balance my towers I struggled with the standard feet I think they will be fine in your case but worth a try when you have found an ideal position to see if you can ring more performance out of the Pens

When I was looking for new speakers I listened to most of the flagships from Wilson,Focal,MBL,Marten,Rockport,Magico,Martin Logan, Avant Garde etc My final short list of speakers were the Rockport Arrakis ,Magico Q7 Mk2 and the Gryphon Pendragon. The Pens won out in the end but I know I would have been happy with Arrakis such an impressive speaker , still brings back fond memories of auditioning these beasts. If I move on from the Pendragons one day and I go back to a traditional box speaker I suspect it will be a Rockport.

Thank you very much, Grant!

I wanted LL21 to know that your decision came down to Arrakis versus Pendragons.
 

Jones99

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2017
16
24
110
Australia
Grant,

What are the “felt dust covers” to which you refer?
Felt is the wrong terminology for it apologies ... but there is definitely a fabric/protector which runs the full length of the ribbon driver.and AMT tweeter..
 
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Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Felt is the wrong terminology for it apologies ... but there is definitely a fabric/protector which runs the full length of the ribbon driver.and AMT tweeter..

I would not take it off either!
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,325
1,316
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
Just got back to answer.

"The GB ribbons just snapped perfectly into place on your Epsilons? Is it just coincidental that the existing ribbon apertures were the right size to accommodate the GB ribbons?"

Pretty much. I put some footers under the edge of the BG 75 and the 'in place' magnets of the Analysis midrange and the BG 75 self center the units over the aperture, so that there is still dipole going through the midrange cavity towards the rear. The magnetic forces are sufficient to hold it with reasonable stability without any other support.

Of course, the upper segment is 25 inches above the speaker and is unencumbered. At a crossover of 300, I had read that there should not be significant 'dipole cancellation' above 150 to 200 Hz i.e. the front wave cancelling around the corner without a baffle, so this seemed safe to do.

Yes, it is just a coincidence that the apertures were the right size, about one inch or so, but I studied the BG ribbons and their measurements extensively from descriptions before deciding to try it.

The ribbons are interesting because they are two inches wide and are mylar?/plastic with the aluminum traces layered onto them inside the frames, but the apertures are much narrower, so there is some kind of compression loading going on with the large ribbon/smaller aperture??? I don't know if this was logistic or not.

Radiating surface of the ribbon is as advertised at about 144 sq, inches per side for the frequency range, vs. about 36 to 38 sq. inches for the Analysis Epsilon midrange ribbon. For some reason just looking at BG 75 from pictures, I though they may have been a whole bunch of smaller ribbon units stacked. That was not true, there is a real single continuous ribbon inside the metal frame flanked by magnets.

"What ribbon came originally with the Epsilons?"

The original Epsilon midrange ribbon is an aluminum kapton ribbon, similar to Apogee types. It is low impedance @2.5 ohms and is not as highly efficient compared to the BG75 @ 6 ohms

"How would you compare and contrast the sound of the GB ribbons versus the sound of the original Epsilon ribbons?"

The Epsilon ribbon, especially when coupled with an impedance matching transformer, is excellent and makes excellent sound. However, I always thought with just 5db more output, it would be all that I would want. So, I guess it acts as a kind of volume limiter and dynamics limiter beneath the level of what I ultimately like. However, it does play reasonably loud and within it's parameters it sounds very, very good. Whenever I wanted to turn things up a bit more, I wouldn't for that reason. That is why I entertained the idea to go for Omegas eventually with a longer ribbon but then started studying the BG ribbons.

Having lived for a few weeks now with the BG 75, it is an amazing ribbon. It is actually more similar in construction to the bass panel, which is several aluminum traces on a mylar panel suspended by rubber, kind of like an upscale Maggie, as opposed to aluminum on kapton.

The BG ribbon is clearly better if for no other reason than it has much greater dynamic range. It has very near electrostat clarity, but with greater sumptuousness of tone, which I actually prefer to stats (and I like stats). I thought imaging might be TOO large, but it is in fact very correct sounding to source, and displays the vertical imaging in spades with distinct vertical layers, which was harder for the Epsilon ribbon to achieve at it's size

"I like big Analysis Audio speakers a lot.

I think your system with the subwoofers is extremely interesting, and very much in line with what I personally like. In essence you are inserting the magnetic planar bass panels where the Gryphon woofer towers would take over, and then using dynamic drivers in subwoofer mode below the bass panels. Putting it another way you are dividing between your subwoofers and planar bass panels the frequency range which would be handled entirely by the woofer towers of the Pendragons."

I would imagine the Pendragon system is better thought out with it's implementations/electronics/cabinets overall, but, yes, I like and appreciate that the bass panel of the Epsilon handles those two octaves of upper bass merging into lower midrange and I think that is the arrangement I would prefer, but I would never believe that the Pendragons weren't well integrated.

"Do you have to disconnect any part of the planar bass panel of the Epsilons, or is that bass panel a single driver?"

Bass panel of Epsilon is a single driver with it's own input. I got the version that has the external crossover because I knew that I wanted to use active crossovers, so the Epsilon is completely intact and requires no mods at all. I could just take off the BG 75 and resume using the midrange ribbon as I had been doing anytime.

"It is interesting that you are getting good performance for 50 watts. That is far less power than Grant uses or I will be using on that ribbon."

All I can say is that it sounds wonderful, and not the least bit 'soft' or compromised in any way. It sounds very special, actually. Room size would factor in, but with the efficiency and impedance of the BG 75, I think that the Wavacs could power them into a larger space with no problem or perceived deficiency.

"PS: If all this were on a blackboard I actually think it could be very interesting to supplement the lower frequency range of the Pendragon ribbon with a magnetic planar bass panel playing up to 300 or 400 or 500 Hz (or cross over to the ribbon driver at that frequency instead of at 200 Hz)."

Gollee, your starting to think all crazy like me, now. It must be contagious.


This experiment with BG 75 was not all daisies. Whenever you buy something on the internet, you take your chances. When I got the ribbons, one was not working and I started tearing my hair out. I didn't know if the guy who sold them knew about the defective unit or not, but I wasn't going to get into a range war with somebody in some other part of the country. Since he never built them out, he might not have known.

They are actually in STAMPED metal frames, and nothing screws open for diagnosis. With my Apogees, I have worked on ribbons a bit. I had to drill the metal endpieces off with a drill to access the end traces. I shorted two end traces with a pice of aluminum, and was able to get the broken one to function as a three (rather than four) trace unit @ 4.5 ohms. It actually sounded excellent that way.

The ribbons are extremely delicate, and you can't use any heat around them, so no soldering. I eventually probed around with a multi-meter and found the section of tract that did not conduct, under a part of the stamped frame. After studying things, I bypassed that segment with conductive copper tape and attached it with conductive silver epoxy glue. That worked, and the ribbon works fine now at the desired 6ohm impedance and all four traces work great. I guess I also got an unanticipated lesson in learning how to fix them.
 
Last edited:

trueblue

Member
Jan 23, 2013
57
2
8
Grant,

I also have great respect for Gary Koh’s big Genesis Technologies Designs. I believe Flemming had that speaker in mind when he set out to design his vision of a simpler and more contemporary version of the Infinity IRS V.

I continue to find very interesting the different design decisions Gary made in his speakers and Flemming made in the Pendragon: different crossover points, different utilization of drivers, different woofer design, different woofer amplifier topology, different philosophy of adjustability, etc.

To understand the nature and difference between the Pendragon and other 4 piece systems, it is important to understand that the bass towers are not subwoofers in traditional sense, because they cross over at a much higher frequency point, explaining why Gryphon recommend their set-up to secure perfect blend between dynamic drivers and ribbons.
It works because they use an array of 8 inch drivers in the active bass towers.
 
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christoph

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2015
4,660
4,058
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Principality of Liechtenstein
Dear Grant,

Thank you very, very much for this extremely detailed and thoughtful description of your system and the evolution of the positioning of the Pendragon towers. Obviously this is personally valuable to me as I will use your experience to aid my positioning endeavors.

Many component and system adjustment elements of this hobby I don’t have the patience for. But I actually am looking forward to understanding how the towers perform in my future listening room and I am looking forward to fine-tuning their locations over many months if not years.

Do you think the spikes made such an improvement in your situation because of the floating floor? Do you think the spikes would be as advantageous on a floor made of wood planks over concrete slab?

What measurement device is on the tripod in the top half of your photo of tools?

What has been your experience with the air
motion tweeter level adjustment? What setting did you settle up on?

Thank you, again, for posting your detailed thoughts!

PS: Are you at liberty to tell us the other speaker system you were considering before you resolved to get the Pendragons? (LL21 would find this interesting.)
Hi Ron
I can imagine that your itch to finally set up your System has became gigantic just now :eek: ;)
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,347
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
Just got back to answer.

"The GB ribbons just snapped perfectly into place on your Epsilons? Is it just coincidental that the existing ribbon apertures were the right size to accommodate the GB ribbons?"

Pretty much. I put some footers under the edge of the BG 75 and the 'in place' magnets of the Analysis midrange and the BG 75 pretty much self center the units over the aperture, so that there is still dipole going through the midrange cavity towards the rear. The magnetic forces are sufficient to hold it with reasonable stability without any other support.

Of course, the upper segment is 25 inches above the speaker and is unencumbered. At a crossover of 300, I had read that there should not be significant 'dipole cancellation' above 150 to 200 Hz i.e. the front wave cancelling around the corner without a baffle, so this seemed safe to do.

Yes, it is just a coincidence that the apertures were the right size, about one inch or so, but I studied the BG ribbons and their measurements extensively from descriptions before deciding to try it.

The ribbons are interesting because they are two inches wide and are mylar?/plastic with the aluminum traces layered onto them inside the frames, but the apertures are much narrower, so there is some kind of compression loading going on with the large ribbon/smaller aperture??? I don't know if this was logistic or not.

Radiating surface of the ribbon is as advertised at about 144 sq, inches per side for the frequency range, vs. about 36 to 38 sq. inches for the Analysis Epsilon midrange ribbon. For some reason just looking at BG 75 from pictures, I though they may have been a whole bunch of smaller ribbon units stacked. That was not true, there is a real single continuous ribbon inside the metal frame flanked by magnets.

"What ribbon came originally with the Epsilons?"

The original Epsilon midrange ribbon is an aluminum kapton ribbon, similar to Apogee types. It is low impedance @2.5 ohms and is not as highly efficient compared to the BG75 @ 6 ohms

"How would you compare and contrast the sound of the GB ribbons versus the sound of the original Epsilon ribbons?"

The Epsilon ribbon, especially when coupled with an impedance matching transformer, is excellent and makes excellent sound. However, I always thought with just 5db more output, it would be all that I would want. So, I guess it acts as a kind of volume limiter and dynamics limiter beneath the level of what I ultimately like. However, it does play reasonably loud and within it's parameters it sounds very, very good. Whenever I wanted to turn things up a bit more, I wouldn't for that reason. That is why I entertained the idea to go for Omegas eventually with a longer ribbon but then started studying the BG ribbons.

Having lived for a few weeks now with the BG 75, it is an amazing ribbon. It is actually more similar in construction to the bass panel, which is several aluminum traces on a mylar panel suspended by rubber, kind of like an upscale Maggie, as opposed to aluminum on kapton.

The BG ribbon is clearly better if for no other reason than it has much greater dynamic range. It has very near electrostat clarity, but with greater sumptuousness of tone, which I actually prefer to stats (and I like stats). I thought imaging might be TOO large, but it is in fact very correct sounding to source, and displays the vertical imaging in spades with distinct vertical layers, which was harder for the Epsilon ribbon to achieve at it's size

"I like big Analysis Audio speakers a lot.

I think your system with the subwoofers is extremely interesting, and very much in line with what I personally like. In essence you are inserting the magnetic planar bass panels where the Gryphon woofer towers would take over, and then using dynamic drivers in subwoofer mode below the bass panels. Putting it another way you are dividing between your subwoofers and planar bass panels the frequency range which would be handled entirely by the woofer towers of the Pendragons."

I would imagine the Pendagron system is better thought out with it's implementations/electronics/cabinets overall, but, yes, I like and appreciate that the bass panel of the Epsilon handles those two octaves of upper bass merging into lower midrange and I think that is the arrangement I would prefer, but I would never believe that the Pendagrons weren't well integrated.

"Do you have to disconnect any part of the planar bass panel of the Epsilons, or is that bass panel a single driver?"

Bass panel of Epsilon is a single driver with it's own input. I got the version that has the external crossover because I knew that I wanted to use active crossovers, so the Epsilon is completely intact and requires no mods at all. I could just take off the BG 75 and resume using the midrange ribbon as I had been doing anytime.

"It is interesting that you are getting good performance for 50 watts. That is far less power than Grant uses or I will be using on that ribbon."

All I can say is that it sounds wonderful, and not the least bit 'soft' or compromised in any way. It sounds very special, actually. Room size would factor in, but with the efficiency and impedance of the BG 75, I think that the Wavacs could power them into a larger space with no problem or perceived deficiency.

"PS: If all this were on a blackboard I actually think it could be very interesting to supplement the lower frequency range of the Pendragon ribbon with a magnetic planar bass panel playing up to 300 or 400 or 500 Hz (or cross over to the ribbon driver at that frequency instead of at 200 Hz)."

Gollee, your starting to think all crazy like me, now. It must be contagious.


This experiment with BG 75 was not all daisies. Whenever you buy something on the internet, you take your chances. When I got the ribbons, one was not working and I started tearing my hair out. I didn't know if the guy who sold them knew about the defective unit or not, but I wasn't going to get into a range war with somebody in some other part of the country. Since he never built them out, he might not have known.

They are actually in STAMPED metal frames, and nothing screws open for diagnosis. With my Apogees, I have worked on ribbons a bit. I had to drill the metal endpieces off with a drill to access the end traces. I shorted two end traces with a pice of aluminum, and was able to get the broken one to function as a three (rather than four) trace unit @ 4.5 ohms. It actually sounded excellent that way.

The ribbons are extremely delicate, and you can't use any heat around them, so no soldering. I eventually probed around with a multi-meter and found the section of tract that did not conduct, under a part of the stamped frame. After studying things, I bypassed that segment with conductive copper tape and attached it with conductive silver epoxy glue. That worked, and the ribbon works fine now at the desired 6ohm impedance and all four traces work great. I guess I also got an unanticipated lesson in learning how to fix them.

Thank you for these detailed answers to my questions. I appreciate it!

I am very impressed that you were able to diagnose and repair the nonworking ribbon! I think you officially are now the BG 75 Ribbon Doctor. (Or would that be Dr. Ribbon?)

Your report, along with Mr. Jones’ satisfaction with them, makes me excited to set up the Pendragons. But it seems like those BG ribbons are extremely delicate, which is disconcerting.
 
Last edited:

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