I assumed the owner has already tried (without success) to re-position the speakers. Changing the tweeter level is a very reasonable thing to try and is very effective. It is not making the speaker inaccurate at all. Many manufacturers (like Wilson Audio) have user-adjustable tweeter levels for very good reasons. Yes, speakers should measure flat in an anechoic chamber, but that should be just the starting point. The final response in a real room should be set by adjusting the tweeter level by ear to what sounds natural (to your ears and in your room).
Giyas tipped up in the highs
- Thread starter sbo6
- Start date
I assumed the owner has already tried (without success) to re-position the speakers. Changing the tweeter level is a very reasonable thing to try and is very effective. It is not making the speaker inaccurate at all. Many manufacturers (like Wilson Audio) have user-adjustable tweeter levels for very good reasons. Yes, speakers should measure flat in an anechoic chamber, but that should be just the starting point. The final response in a real room should be set by adjusting the tweeter level by ear to what sounds natural (to your ears and in your room).
Tweeters measure pretty flat in room, too. If the FR isn't out of whack, it's what they're producing not adding to the music... hence electronics or cables.
Thanks for all the advice and responses. First, let me say that I have done extensive measuring with my recent speakers and in other listening rooms. I'm not an expert, but an experienced amateur. My room is tuned with mild absorption and mostly diffusion. With my previous speakers + 2 JLA F113 subs I spent extensive time measuring, listening and tuning to achieve what I found to be the most natural and accurate - Harman target curve from my system. Some data points:
- The speakers currently have ~230 hours on them. From ~150 hours and beyond I've heard little to no change in sound.
- Giyas have been set up using the Wilson method + significant measuring, moving and listening. They are about the best they can be in my room to get a good balance of bass / mid bass without sounding muddy or thin while still achieving a wide, deep sound stage. There is no thin bass making the high stand out as bright.
- The subs have been adjusted to accommodate the Giyas. The change was minimal versus the Ushers which makes sense since I'm working with the limitations of the room irrespective of the speaker (I have a bad 60Hz dip and a 30Hz peak both managed with the subs quite effectively).
- Measuring with REW with the Giyas the highs do not roll off (like the Harman curve) when on spikes (tweeter on axis with my listening ear in the SS with moderate toe - in.
- I tried toe - in crossing in front of the SS = bright / worse.
- I tried toe - in with drivers facing the sweet spot (like Wilsons) = bright.
- Info: The Giya G1 Spirit front driver array =~ 5/14" higher than the G2s. Also, Lawrence Dickie had stated that the G1 tweeter was a bit too high for most SS ears, hence the reason (or part of the reason) to lower the G1 Spirit tweeter by 4" versus the G1.
- Due to above, I have been experimenting with raising the G2s to have the tweeter closer to the G1 Spirit height. This helped significantly with brightness and also raised the overall sound stage as expected.
- After additional advice that Vivid demos the Giyas with little to no toe - in I additionally experimented with very little toe - in, even better (less bright) This is reflected in measurements where it much closely matches the Harman curve in the highs.
For those that use significant toe - in I would love to know what amp(s), source and preamp you use.
- The speakers currently have ~230 hours on them. From ~150 hours and beyond I've heard little to no change in sound.
- Giyas have been set up using the Wilson method + significant measuring, moving and listening. They are about the best they can be in my room to get a good balance of bass / mid bass without sounding muddy or thin while still achieving a wide, deep sound stage. There is no thin bass making the high stand out as bright.
- The subs have been adjusted to accommodate the Giyas. The change was minimal versus the Ushers which makes sense since I'm working with the limitations of the room irrespective of the speaker (I have a bad 60Hz dip and a 30Hz peak both managed with the subs quite effectively).
- Measuring with REW with the Giyas the highs do not roll off (like the Harman curve) when on spikes (tweeter on axis with my listening ear in the SS with moderate toe - in.
- I tried toe - in crossing in front of the SS = bright / worse.
- I tried toe - in with drivers facing the sweet spot (like Wilsons) = bright.
- Info: The Giya G1 Spirit front driver array =~ 5/14" higher than the G2s. Also, Lawrence Dickie had stated that the G1 tweeter was a bit too high for most SS ears, hence the reason (or part of the reason) to lower the G1 Spirit tweeter by 4" versus the G1.
- Due to above, I have been experimenting with raising the G2s to have the tweeter closer to the G1 Spirit height. This helped significantly with brightness and also raised the overall sound stage as expected.
- After additional advice that Vivid demos the Giyas with little to no toe - in I additionally experimented with very little toe - in, even better (less bright) This is reflected in measurements where it much closely matches the Harman curve in the highs.
For those that use significant toe - in I would love to know what amp(s), source and preamp you use.
That reads “I am trying to avoid hearing my speakers.”
I suggest you try some benign cheap cables, that you probably won’t end up with as a mainstay, but can rule out that factor (cheaply)
https://www.ramelectronics.net/HS.aspx
https://www.amazon.com/Mogami-GOLD-RCA-RCA-06-Contacts-Connectors/dp/B001LNN2FA?th=1&psc=1
And some of the cables DDK likes for power.
I suggest you try some benign cheap cables, that you probably won’t end up with as a mainstay, but can rule out that factor (cheaply)
https://www.ramelectronics.net/HS.aspx
https://www.amazon.com/Mogami-GOLD-RCA-RCA-06-Contacts-Connectors/dp/B001LNN2FA?th=1&psc=1
And some of the cables DDK likes for power.
No sir, not trying to avoid hearing them, they are outstanding speakers, I'm trying to balance the highs with the rest of the speaker in my room. I will try some cheaper cables, thanks. BTW, about a year back I took out on loan Audience AU24SX SCs and ICs which had a very similar tonality as the JPS Labs cables. Neither were bright, both were quite transparent in my system which had Ushers at the time. Ultimately I ended up keeping my JPS Labs cables.
I think you have great speakers! For a modern speaker I really like Vivids. Perhaps a Cardas Golden Cross or Golden Reference IC for the amp powering the mids and highs? Have you experimented with just a single stereo amp ?
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LOL, thanks Steve! Will certainly hit you up for help when needed. With the work I've done since you guys came over they sound quite a bit different (for the better).
Hello There
I doubt there is anything untoward with your loudspeakers.
I would be concerned with the use of two different amplifiers (always not recommended for a myriad of sound reasons) and not toeing the speakers in towards the listener (thus reducing wall reflections)
I would seek professional assistance.
Best wishes
VA
I doubt there is anything untoward with your loudspeakers.
I would be concerned with the use of two different amplifiers (always not recommended for a myriad of sound reasons) and not toeing the speakers in towards the listener (thus reducing wall reflections)
I would seek professional assistance.
Best wishes
VA
Hi Vivid Audio,
Are you a dealer? Also, as I stated earlier Vivid Audio themselves do not toe in when demoing their speakers.
As for amplifiers, the amp used for the woofers was specifically selected and it has an input sensitivity and power output that matches the mid/tweet amp (gain matched). I have also measured with 1 amp or biamped and the bass output is identical. Furthermore I had no such output or phase issues when running this same amp combination with my last speakers.
Are you a dealer? Also, as I stated earlier Vivid Audio themselves do not toe in when demoing their speakers.
As for amplifiers, the amp used for the woofers was specifically selected and it has an input sensitivity and power output that matches the mid/tweet amp (gain matched). I have also measured with 1 amp or biamped and the bass output is identical. Furthermore I had no such output or phase issues when running this same amp combination with my last speakers.
I don't know where you live however I would suggest that you get some help. You spent a lot of money so do yourself a favor and get a professional to make them sing and identify what you are hearing and the correct way to solve it. Getting myriad of opinions that don't know you or your room and gear is truly worthless. Sorry if I offended someone but this is not different that asking for medical advice of an ailment with no examine and patient history.
I am not making a statements about the gear or the speakers however I strongly believe that you are searching in the wrong place!
Thanks for the advice Elliot. I am simply reaching out to those who have or had Giya speakers for their experiences. That's one of the beauties of forums like this - you get a concentrated group to provide feedback for free, nothing wrong with that.
As for experts, I could argue I am one with an engineering background, audio equipment owner/tweaker for 30+ years, musician, amateur recording engineer and someone who has hands - on experience measuring and tuning audio rooms / systems. From my experience, what constitutes a "professional" in this hobby is anyone's guess. I've been to many high end audio stores (and I'm sure you have also) where the equipment and rooms were set up horribly, yet they're selling the gear and considered experts. I've also heard / seen six and seven figure systems that were set up by "professionals" and the acoustic treatment choices and placement were abysmal reflected in the audio experience. IME the best of the best sounding systems are those with owners who painstakingly took the time to learn to measure, assess the data, listen and tune/reposition the speaker/sub(s) and the sweet spot and apply acoustic treatments as needed for the best compromise of bass, mid and highs, image size / depth in their limited listening environment.
Apologies for the long winded reply. On a brighter note - tuning and listening last night with recent changes I've employed working with an Audio magazine reviewer (including extensive Giya reviews/experience) I'm getting quite a nice balance from the G2 S2s. Based on his advice / experience, I guess I'd call him a professional.
Thanks again for your reply Elliot!
As for experts, I could argue I am one with an engineering background, audio equipment owner/tweaker for 30+ years, musician, amateur recording engineer and someone who has hands - on experience measuring and tuning audio rooms / systems. From my experience, what constitutes a "professional" in this hobby is anyone's guess. I've been to many high end audio stores (and I'm sure you have also) where the equipment and rooms were set up horribly, yet they're selling the gear and considered experts. I've also heard / seen six and seven figure systems that were set up by "professionals" and the acoustic treatment choices and placement were abysmal reflected in the audio experience. IME the best of the best sounding systems are those with owners who painstakingly took the time to learn to measure, assess the data, listen and tune/reposition the speaker/sub(s) and the sweet spot and apply acoustic treatments as needed for the best compromise of bass, mid and highs, image size / depth in their limited listening environment.
Apologies for the long winded reply. On a brighter note - tuning and listening last night with recent changes I've employed working with an Audio magazine reviewer (including extensive Giya reviews/experience) I'm getting quite a nice balance from the G2 S2s. Based on his advice / experience, I guess I'd call him a professional.
Thanks again for your reply Elliot!
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And what was the remedy?Thanks for the advice Elliot. I am simply reaching out to those who have or had Giya speakers for their experiences. That's one of the beauties of forums like this - you get a concentrated group to provide feedback for free, nothing wrong with that.
As for experts, I could argue I am one with an engineering background, audio equipment owner/tweaker for 30+ years, musician, amateur recording engineer and someone who has hands - on experience measuring and tuning audio rooms / systems. From my experience, what constitutes a "professional" in this hobby is anyone's guess. I've been to many high end audio stores (and I'm sure you have also) where the equipment and rooms were set up horribly, yet they're selling the gear and considered experts. I've also heard / seen six and seven figure systems that were set up by "professionals" and the acoustic treatment choices, placement were abysmal reflected in the audio experience. The best of the best sounding systems those with owners who painstakingly took the time to learn to measure, assess the data, listen and tune/reposition the speaker/sub(s) and the sweet spot and apply acoustic treatments as needed for the best compromise of bass, mid and highs, image size / depth in their limited listening environment.
Apologies for the long winded reply. On a brighter note - tuning and listening last night with recent changes I've employed working with an Audio magazine reviewer (including extensive Giya reviews/experience) I'm getting quite a nice balance from the G2 S2s. Based on his advice / experience, I guess I'd call him a professional.
Thanks again for your reply Elliot!
A combination of things. The crux of it being:
- More optimal speaker placement closer to the front and side walls than previous speakers.
- As stated earlier Vivid demos their speakers with no toe - in.
- With no toe - in first reflections are stronger and more critical to address. The recommendation is full absorption.
As I was working to find the best speaker placement for the best compromise of bass, mid and highs, image size / depth I continued to elevate the speakers 3" while applying very slight toe - in (versus toe - in with triangle closing behind the sweet spot) and changed from diffusion to absorption for the first reflections. The first reflection absorption made a significant difference.
There are many other changes versus my last speakers in terms of subwoofer settings and room treatment since the Giyas load the room quite differently with dual ~8.5" side firing woofers versus the Ushers with dual 11" front firing woofers. Still working to further optimize.
- More optimal speaker placement closer to the front and side walls than previous speakers.
- As stated earlier Vivid demos their speakers with no toe - in.
- With no toe - in first reflections are stronger and more critical to address. The recommendation is full absorption.
As I was working to find the best speaker placement for the best compromise of bass, mid and highs, image size / depth I continued to elevate the speakers 3" while applying very slight toe - in (versus toe - in with triangle closing behind the sweet spot) and changed from diffusion to absorption for the first reflections. The first reflection absorption made a significant difference.
There are many other changes versus my last speakers in terms of subwoofer settings and room treatment since the Giyas load the room quite differently with dual ~8.5" side firing woofers versus the Ushers with dual 11" front firing woofers. Still working to further optimize.
No sir, it was Doug from Soundstage HiFi. Curious with Joel if he had any toe - in and were they G1 or G2?
They were G1
He is on this board, if you PM Joel. He is a 6 moons reviewer. They were toed in, but he was using a variety of room treatment too, Mentioned here http://zero-distortion.org/microsorbers-and-pyt-audio-panels/
He is on this board, if you PM Joel. He is a 6 moons reviewer. They were toed in, but he was using a variety of room treatment too, Mentioned here http://zero-distortion.org/microsorbers-and-pyt-audio-panels/
Thank you, will PM Joel. The G1's front speaker array is ~10" higher than the G2 and Lawrence Dickie had stated that in retrospect that he would've lowered the drivers (primarily because of the excessive tweeter height) to better accommodate most listening chair / listener's heights. That's why the G1 Spirit's drivers are ~5" lower than the G1 and one of the reasons why I raised my G2s to have the tweeter closer to the G1 Spirit's tweeter height. It's also one of the reasons I believe you can get away with more toe - in with the G1s versus G2s since the tweeter is over your head at the sweet spot.
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