Giant Custom Horn Systems - How they sound and issues with sonics

I definitely dream of one day building the ultimate system and room. I see what some of these crazy guys do with truly giant custom horn installations and they make me drool, but (like most of us) I've never had an opportunity to hear one of these crazy systems (see pics).

But I'm guessing at least a few of you have and others probably possess some theoretical engineering knowledge around the issues these giant horn systems might create, but I've never seen a thread that discusses the sonic pro's and con's of these systems.

Would love to hear some thoughts (even if it is just some pontificating on theory) regarding these types of installations. Let's discuss.

 

I think this guy is taking your line, "An audiophile is only done when they go to the great brick and mortar store in the sky" literally and preparing for it!

david

View attachment 39383

 

As much as I love vintage Tannoys they can't just can't match the dynamics of good horns.

david

Because they are NOT horn speakers, as you said...

The difference is a traditional horn speaker uses the horn for acoustic gain across the frequency range, and gain is usually maximized. The Tannoy is more a waveguide, it will have the largest effect on midrange directivity... it may have some gain but only a few dB, nothing near what a real horn can produce.

Also, BLH, or back-loaded horns have far too much delay imo, I've only heard a couple that are ok and they have too-short of a path for them to be "real" horns. The Lamhorn is the best I've heard and paired with a good driver it is an excellent speaker.

 

Don't know what that is on the front of the Westminster but it's not a horn of any kind nor does it behave or sound like one. I don't know the length of the folded horn in the cabinet but it's not SET friendly and requires similar power to their vented models to move air. I guess you're technically correct about rear loaded cabinets being categorized as horns just I never though of them as true horn speakers specially the Tannoys. Even the vintage 15" Monitor Gold ones can do with some power to come to life. But I can bi-amp this model and get away with a pair of SETs par channel and active crossover.

david

The front is probably some kind of wave guide to shape directivity through th mods...perhaps to better match high frequency dispersion?

There are other types of channel designs that are more like a vented box, a transmission line, for example. But the design is again very different from a horn...although reviewers can get them mixed up.

Not sure why the Tannoys need waking up but maybe the mass of the cones is relatively high and impedance not so tube friendly? I would think a good 20-30 watt SET would work fine in a not too large room.

Note, I am also not a big fan of this speaker, which I have heard with both tube and SS amps of high quality and found it too colored for my liking.

I personally though know of a few backloaded designs that sound stellar. I even own one pair. The lower mid and bass of the AC Symphonia is another. There was a Korean speaker called Koechel that was a three way with backloaded horn midbass that sounded very nice but didn't go very deep (horn was a bit too short). Finally there are the earlier Living Voice designs (not sure about VOX Olympian but it does use a 15 inch Vitavox in a midbass horn that I think is back loaded.), the Air Scout and Air Partner. Dynamikks also made some really awesome sounding backhorns in the early 2000s (their 3.x series).

Then there are many (less successful IMO) single driver back horns...some impress (RD Acoustics from Czech Republic) and most do not.

 

People have tried all sorts of SETs with them and ended up with AR 250se, MSB, ASR, other push pulls, etc.

If the ones I heard AR sounded the best on them the Shindo SETs just didn't do it. The Shindo guy eventually replaced the amps with EAR push pull. Jim Smith is using ASR on them though he used SETs on his avant-garde

 

People have tried all sorts of SETs with them and ended up with AR 250se, MSB, ASR, other push pulls, etc.

If the ones I heard AR sounded the best on them the Shindo SETs just didn't do it. The Shindo guy eventually replaced the amps with EAR push pull. Jim Smith is using ASR on them though he used SETs on his avant-garde

Funny because the latest model is rated something like 99db/watt

 

All their models had high sensitivity rating hence why people try SETs. But they are hard to driven

 

All their models had high sensitivity rating hence why people try SETs. But they are hard to driven

The question is WHY? I don't know of any 99db speakers that can't work well with a 20 watt SET. I have some 96db Decware HDT single driver speakers (not horn loaded) that work great with an 11 watt Mastersound amp. I orignially got the setup for late night, low level listening because I don't like headphones much but I found it also plays quite loud with sounding strained. A 99db, 15inch cone should play loud with little power input...or the rating is completely bogus.

 

While we are at it, I have a question for Acapella Ion TW 1S plasma tweeter users. I know it has its own amplification, but has anyone tried matching this tweeter with a horn system that is efficient about 108-109db?

How low people drive this and with what efficiency, if they drive it low (5000hz)? I have been told that I can use an acapella plasma tweeter instead of both my upper mid horn with 1" be driver (4500hz-9000hz) and my tweeter which is a fostex t500amkII.

Anyone has any experience on this?

Wish I had one to try and hear how integrates to my system but its next to impossible.

 

Unfortunately you haven't heard good horns Keith, what you describe is stereotypical of poorly designed horn speakers which there are plenty of or good ones driven with the wrong electronics. As much as I love vintage Tannoys they can't just can't match the dynamics of good horns.

david

Oh? I haven't? Strange, I wonder what those huge horn looking things are in my living room, then.

 

I think this guy is taking your line, "An audiophile is only done when they go to the great brick and mortar store in the sky" literally and preparing for it!

david

Oh yeah ....he loves horn bass maybe a little too much

 

.
This guy is serious about horns!

note the size of the man standing to the right of the excavator holding the horn.

View attachment 39361

Custom installation of 16 Hertz concrete basshorn
(nearly complete horn mold shown - throat on left, mouth on right)

• http://myemia.com/_horn.html

 

We have a saying in the U.K.
“Put that in your pipe and smoke it”.

 

Hate to argue about this David but you and bonzo are both wrong. It doesn't matter whether you load the front wave or the back wave of the driver with a horn, as long as it is of sufficient length and has the right exponential expansion then it is a horn...by definition. Now, to be sure, with a back loaded horn there is also the front wave radiating into the room as direct radiation, which will give it somewhat different midrange dispersion. In the case of the Westminster it looks like they put a kind of short horn on the front of the driver to give some boost in the mids most likely...or this could be a kind of waveguide. You may not like this sound as it will be somewhat different than an all front firing horn system but that doesn't mean it is some kind of special vented box design...it is nothing of the sort...the physics are quite different.

Also, unless a back horn is quite long it will not make "deeper bass" than either a vented or sealed box of smaller dimensions. Just looking at the Westminster's size alone should tell you this...the smaller vented models go at least as deep...but not as sensitive...which is the real advantage of the horn loading.

11 feet ...

Here's an extract:

"Each Westminster Royal SE speaker cabinet incorporates two 11-foot long rear folded horns—composed of 30 individual panels—that couple to the rear of the Dual Concentric™ drive unit and exit at the front cabinet corners (see the cutaway diagrams of the cabinets below). The rear horn starts acoustic coupling to the drive unit at 300Hz and provides low frequency response down to 18Hz (-6dB). Above 300Hz the low frequency drive unit is coupled to the front horn and provides frequency response in the range of 300Hz to 1000Hz. The high frequency compression driver component of the Dual Concentric™ drive unit provides frequency response from1000Hz to 20000Hz."

___

I highly recommend reading the full article:
• https://positive-feedback.com/Issue49/tannoy.htm

I did, how many of you did too?
___

Another extract:

"The high frequencies (1000Hz to 20000Hz) of the Dual Concentric™ drive unit are provided by a high performance 2-inch compression driver with a wide dynamic range whose acoustic output is routed through a multiple phase compensating device into the throat of a solid steel acoustic horn, where it goes through an impedance transformation that matches the compression driver's radiation to the room. The driver uses a aluminum-magnesium alloy diaphragm that is manufactured according to a precision five-step process that produces a grain structure aligned at the molecular level to provide high performance and long-term durability. The diaphragm is driven by a round wire voice coil that is an ultra-low mass aluminum design, and is wired with copper Litz wire for high performance and long-term durability. The acoustic cavity of the driver is damped to control its response and to match its impedance to the horn throat. The compression driver's response extends two octaves below the crossover frequency of 1000 Hz, which eliminates colorations that can arise due to operation over the fundamental resonance region.

The 15-inch low frequency cone is made of a proprietary paper-pulp material that is treated to absorb internal resonance modes, and utilizes a reinforcing structure that gives it a very high stiffness to mass ratio that allows it to maintain very accurate pistonic motion over its frequency range. The low frequency cone has a damped twin roll fabric surround that is designed to be compliant and linear over the large excursions the driver is capable of. A high power motor that consists of a four-layer coil that is suspended in a very fine tolerance magnetic air gap drives the cone. The coil is wound using a special high temperature adhesive system and then goes through a curing process that ensures reliable operation at high peak power inputs the driver is capable of handling (e.g. 550 watts peak, 135 watts RMS)."

 

Unfortunately you haven't heard good horns Keith, what you describe is stereotypical of poorly designed horn speakers which there are plenty of or good ones driven with the wrong electronics. As much as I love vintage Tannoys they can't just can't match the dynamics of good horns.

david

Oh? I haven't? Strange, I wonder what those huge horn looking things are in my living room, then.

• http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Acapella-system&p=99330&viewfull=1#post99330
___

___

* Extra: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=12429

 

Great thread.Ive heard a few Horns over the last 5 years .Although my room is narrow I hope to have a system up and running by the end of the year.I plan on using a DEQX for crossover and room correction.Horn sound can not be recreated by conventional speakers.I get a Holographic sound experience with the type I putting together.

 

Oh? I haven't? Strange, I wonder what those huge horn looking things are in my living room, then.

I have no idea what’s in your living room specially after all the mods or how it’s setup Keith, I replied to a comment on horns staging and dynamics compared to Tannoys no offense intended.

Here is a speaker that gives you the advantage of horns (dynamics) without the downsides (poor imaging and unrealistic soundstage).

david

 

The front is probably some kind of wave guide to shape directivity through th mods...perhaps to better match high frequency dispersion?

There are other types of channel designs that are more like a vented box, a transmission line, for example. But the design is again very different from a horn...although reviewers can get them mixed up.

Not sure why the Tannoys need waking up but maybe the mass of the cones is relatively high and impedance not so tube friendly? I would think a good 20-30 watt SET would work fine in a not too large room.

Note, I am also not a big fan of this speaker, which I have heard with both tube and SS amps of high quality and found it too colored for my liking.

I personally though know of a few backloaded designs that sound stellar. I even own one pair. The lower mid and bass of the AC Symphonia is another. There was a Korean speaker called Koechel that was a three way with backloaded horn midbass that sounded very nice but didn't go very deep (horn was a bit too short). Finally there are the earlier Living Voice designs (not sure about VOX Olympian but it does use a 15 inch Vitavox in a midbass horn that I think is back loaded.), the Air Scout and Air Partner. Dynamikks also made some really awesome sounding backhorns in the early 2000s (their 3.x series).

Then there are many (less successful IMO) single driver back horns...some impress (RD Acoustics from Czech Republic) and most do not.

I can tell you from direct experience that 20watt of any type isn't enough power for 15" Tannoy drivers, there's just too much mass there. 30 watts with the old 15" Monitor Red driver maybe, but certainly with Monitor Gold and later variants. Nothing to do with room size, the bass is slow muddy and very colored with low power, the Vitavox woofer is the exact opposite, sparkles with only a few watts.

david

 

All their models had high sensitivity rating hence why people try SETs. But they are hard to driven

The only Tannoy I owned was the Edinburgh, long ago. I can confirm that it sounded much more interesting with 100W solid state than with low power tubes such as the Jadis DA30.

Anyway it seems to me they can´t be technically hard to drive - see for example the Stereophile impedance measurements of the Churchill. https://www.stereophile.com/content/tannoy-churchill-loudspeaker-measurements As far as I remember, what I appreciated better when they were properly driven was the fast and clean type of sound, very natural - any warmth in the system would make it sound syrupy and colored. Although I never paired them ( I owned them in different periods) I can imagine that the ASR Emitter2 could be a great match. Some years later an used Westminster showed in the market at a very low price - if it was not for the enormous size I would have got it!

 

The only Tannoy I owned was the Edinburgh, long ago. I can confirm that it sounded much more interesting with 100W solid state than with low power tubes such as the Jadis DA30.

Anyway it seems to me they can´t be technically hard to drive - see for example the Stereophile impedance measurements of the Churchill. https://www.stereophile.com/content/tannoy-churchill-loudspeaker-measurements As far as I remember, what I appreciated better when they were properly driven was the fast and clean type of sound, very natural - any warmth in the system would make it sound syrupy and colored. Although I never paired them ( I owned them in different periods) I can imagine that the ASR Emitter2 could be a great match. Some years later an used Westminster showed in the market at a very low price - if it was not for the enormous size I would have got it!

I don't regard them as hard to drive- our M-60s work great on them! But from all reports, you need power- our Tannoy customers report that they tried many SETs and none did the job.

 

11 feet ...

Here's an extract:

"Each Westminster Royal SE speaker cabinet incorporates two 11-foot long rear folded horns—composed of 30 individual panels—that couple to the rear of the Dual Concentric™ drive unit and exit at the front cabinet corners (see the cutaway diagrams of the cabinets below). The rear horn starts acoustic coupling to the drive unit at 300Hz and provides low frequency response down to 18Hz (-6dB). Above 300Hz the low frequency drive unit is coupled to the front horn and provides frequency response in the range of 300Hz to 1000Hz. The high frequency compression driver component of the Dual Concentric™ drive unit provides frequency response from1000Hz to 20000Hz."

___

I highly recommend reading the full article:
• https://positive-feedback.com/Issue49/tannoy.htm

I did, how many of you did too?
___

Another extract:

"The high frequencies (1000Hz to 20000Hz) of the Dual Concentric™ drive unit are provided by a high performance 2-inch compression driver with a wide dynamic range whose acoustic output is routed through a multiple phase compensating device into the throat of a solid steel acoustic horn, where it goes through an impedance transformation that matches the compression driver's radiation to the room. The driver uses a aluminum-magnesium alloy diaphragm that is manufactured according to a precision five-step process that produces a grain structure aligned at the molecular level to provide high performance and long-term durability. The diaphragm is driven by a round wire voice coil that is an ultra-low mass aluminum design, and is wired with copper Litz wire for high performance and long-term durability. The acoustic cavity of the driver is damped to control its response and to match its impedance to the horn throat. The compression driver's response extends two octaves below the crossover frequency of 1000 Hz, which eliminates colorations that can arise due to operation over the fundamental resonance region.

The 15-inch low frequency cone is made of a proprietary paper-pulp material that is treated to absorb internal resonance modes, and utilizes a reinforcing structure that gives it a very high stiffness to mass ratio that allows it to maintain very accurate pistonic motion over its frequency range. The low frequency cone has a damped twin roll fabric surround that is designed to be compliant and linear over the large excursions the driver is capable of. A high power motor that consists of a four-layer coil that is suspended in a very fine tolerance magnetic air gap drives the cone. The coil is wound using a special high temperature adhesive system and then goes through a curing process that ensures reliable operation at high peak power inputs the driver is capable of handling (e.g. 550 watts peak, 135 watts RMS)."

Ok, so it has essentially dual 3.3 meter long horns, which should give pretty good bass and the front is a horn as well for midrange. I still find it hard to believe a 20 watt SET won't do it with these speakers...but if doesn't it doesn't.