Genesis 1.1 VS Wilson X2 Alexandria

[ddk]

David, the main problem with the woofers sounding different from the midrange/tweeters on the old system was because the midrange/tweeters are driven by your power amplifier (and it's associated sound) and the woofers are driven by the preamplifier bypassing the power amplifier.

I designed something to overcome that - I'll post the circuit and how to do it on the Genesis forum.

Gary, thanks for the candor.

david

 

[Jazzhead]

Gents,

this is quite an overwhelming show of experience to help me answer my question. For that, I thank you (David, Audiocrack, Micro, Steve and of course Gary). Adding my own opinions here, I will say that I have heard Audiocrack's system...and I have posted at length in a new thread I created which, ironically, is called something like "Genesis 1.1s vs Wilson X1/Grand Slamms". In it, I clearly state that I came away with the distinct impression that in that same room, my X1s to the Genesis 1.1s would be like Sashas to X1s. Now that is an IMPRESSION because of course we could not actually do it...but I have never heard in all the years of auditions of X1/X2s heard effortless scale on Rachel Podger Vivaldi Extravaganza like in Audiocrack's customized room.

That said, I come back to reality...which is that the mighty Genesis 1s are too big for me today and in the foreseeable future. I have considered the equally expensive Arrakis...but at the moment, a logical question is the one I have asked: Can X1s biamped and combined with seriously powerful and well-setup subs (Thor, XS, Magico QSubs, Gothams, etc) allow me to scale up pretty darn close to the really big boys in a much more room-manageable form. Biamping does not cost more room other than an amp, and I already have one sub.

Here is my guess...those who have participated, please let me know if I am on the right track. In a room, say 17 x 35 x 8-10...a pair of X1s biamped probably adds:
- far greater linearity
- less grain
- more control/dynamic capability and speed
- presume we are also replacing the passive woofer crossover with the Wilson Active Crossover so more adjustable to the room

Thor/XS/JL-type subs add:
- spaciousness/sense of scale
- ultimate sense of power
- deep bass

My gut tells me the sense of scale will still not be at Genesis or Arrakis level...but it will close in a room of the above dimensions...so close I might not even be able to tell or care.

Plus, it probably IS significantly greater scale and naturalness than what I have today...because once a system starts to have notable grain, strain or lack of linearity...the soundstage immediately collapses and the 'lifelike palpability' starts to fad quickly because the music becomes injected with distortion. The bi-amping and the removal of the X1 passive woofer crossover (in the right technical hands!) should reduce that much more distortion...and the super-subs should give that ultimate sense of space, effortlessness and, yes, slam that would be better than what I have (even in my medium room) because the super subs will have even lower distortion and superior control to the Velodyne.

About right?

Am sure bi-amping plus Thor would be the most effective upgrade path .... you could always integrate the Thor when the Arrakis finally comes along

 

[LL21]

Am sure bi-amping plus Thor would be the most effective upgrade path .... you could always integrate the Thor when the Arrakis finally comes along

Thanks! listening to Doug McLeod Reference Recordings...certainly no rush...but sure is nice to think about...

 

[LL21]

LL21, The easiest, most cost effective upgrade for you is bi-amping. The X-1 is very efficient and an easy load, you'll get wonderful results from a pair of low powered tube amps. Keep everything including the cables the same for both sections. You'll probably have to make adjustments to your subs after doing this. Look for a used XS, they're fantastic.

david

Hi David,

Just re-found this link...very interesting notes from 'Friedrich' regarding his Wilson X1s. He bi-wires which I think you have recommended I consider as big bang for my buck. Post #9 on here. I also did not appreciate the X2 has 4 crossovers vs 2 in the X1, making the X1 more current-hungry than the X2?

http://www.audioaficionado.org/wilson-audio/3990-wilson-audio-grand-slamm-3-a.html

 

[ddk]

Hi David,

Just re-found this link...very interesting notes from 'Friedrich' regarding his Wilson X1s. He bi-wires which I think you have recommended I consider as big bang for my buck. Post #9 on here. I also did not appreciate the X2 has 4 crossovers vs 2 in the X1, making the X1 more current-hungry than the X2?

http://www.audioaficionado.org/wilson-audio/3990-wilson-audio-grand-slamm-3-a.html

i have the opposite experience, the X1was always a very easy load to drive. I found the X2 slightly more power hungry and the Maxx needing quite a bit more than both to come to life.

 

[LL21]

i have the opposite experience, the X1was always a very easy load to drive. I found the X2 slightly more power hungry and the Maxx needing quite a bit more than both to come to life.

I agree with that...nevertheless, most curious now to explore more about bi-wiring the X1s.

 

[ddk]

I agree with that...nevertheless, most curious now to explore more about bi-wiring the X1s.

Shouldn't be too difficult for you to borrow a pair Gryphons to try out, and you should hear the difference straight away.

 

[LL21]

Shouldn't be too difficult for you to borrow a pair Gryphons to try out, and you should hear the difference straight away.

Thanks...will definitely give this one some thought.

 

[ruxtonvet]

First time visiter to this site. Read all 228 posts. A few comments. I have owned Infinity RS1Bs since 1985. Basically baby Genesis 1.2s. Four towers with servo controls on the woofers with an electronic crossover. Tubes (VTL 300) on the EMIMs And EMITS and transistors (Perreaux 3150) on the mid tweeter panels. These speakers age well and even though they are panels they have excellent dynamics (slam). They are in a 32' x 17' x 10' custom built room. No problem with integration of the four towers. I have been looking to replace them for decade but the only speakers I like better than the 1Bs are the large Nola's or the Genesis 1.2s. I paid $5500 flor the 1Bs in 85 so I am looking at spending $200,000 plus to upgrade. I do not like the Wilson's or the the Magnepan 20.2s or the smaller Nola's. The Vanderstein Model 7 were excellent but dynamically compressed when pushed in a large room. The MBLs were bright to me. I miss Mike Kay at Lyric. His words to me were "it is hard to impossible to fool the laws of physics". Therefore. I am stuck with looking at large speaker systems that push a lot of air and cost a lot of dollars. I am now 71 with some hearing loss but not in the bass frequencies. You only live once so maybe I will make the plunge.

 

[LL21]

First time visiter to this site. Read all 228 posts. A few comments. I have owned Infinity RS1Bs since 1985. Basically baby Genesis 1.2s. Four towers with servo controls on the woofers with an electronic crossover. Tubes (VTL 300) on the EMIMs And EMITS and transistors (Perreaux 3150) on the mid tweeter panels. These speakers age well and even though they are panels they have excellent dynamics (slam). They are in a 32' x 17' x 10' custom built room. No problem with integration of the four towers. I have been looking to replace them for decade but the only speakers I like better than the 1Bs are the large Nola's or the Genesis 1.2s. I paid $5500 flor the 1Bs in 85 so I am looking at spending $200,000 plus to upgrade. I do not like the Wilson's or the the Magnepan 20.2s or the smaller Nola's. The Vanderstein Model 7 were excellent but dynamically compressed when pushed in a large room. The MBLs were bright to me. I miss Mike Kay at Lyric. His words to me were "it is hard to impossible to fool the laws of physics". Therefore. I am stuck with looking at large speaker systems that push a lot of air and cost a lot of dollars. I am now 71 with some hearing loss but not in the bass frequencies. You only live once so maybe I will make the plunge.

Fantastic!!! Would love to see you take the plunge...always easy to spend someone else's money. But as you say, you only live once. Good luck...they are sensational speakers. Meanwhile, would love to know more about your Infinity RS1Bs? Any comments are welcome!

 

[mep]

First time visiter to this site. Read all 228 posts. A few comments. I have owned Infinity RS1Bs since 1985. Basically baby Genesis 1.2s. Four towers with servo controls on the woofers with an electronic crossover. Tubes (VTL 300) on the EMIMs And EMITS and transistors (Perreaux 3150) on the mid tweeter panels. These speakers age well and even though they are panels they have excellent dynamics (slam). They are in a 32' x 17' x 10' custom built room. No problem with integration of the four towers. I have been looking to replace them for decade but the only speakers I like better than the 1Bs are the large Nola's or the Genesis 1.2s. I paid $5500 flor the 1Bs in 85 so I am looking at spending $200,000 plus to upgrade. I do not like the Wilson's or the the Magnepan 20.2s or the smaller Nola's. The Vanderstein Model 7 were excellent but dynamically compressed when pushed in a large room. The MBLs were bright to me. I miss Mike Kay at Lyric. His words to me were "it is hard to impossible to fool the laws of physics". Therefore. I am stuck with looking at large speaker systems that push a lot of air and cost a lot of dollars. I am now 71 with some hearing loss but not in the bass frequencies. You only live once so maybe I will make the plunge.

I think you meant the Perreaux on the bass towers.

 

[garylkoh]

First time visiter to this site. Read all 228 posts. A few comments. I have owned Infinity RS1Bs since 1985. Basically baby Genesis 1.2s. Four towers with servo controls on the woofers with an electronic crossover. Tubes (VTL 300) on the EMIMs And EMITS and transistors (Perreaux 3150) on the mid tweeter panels. These speakers age well and even though they are panels they have excellent dynamics (slam). They are in a 32' x 17' x 10' custom built room. No problem with integration of the four towers. I have been looking to replace them for decade but the only speakers I like better than the 1Bs are the large Nola's or the Genesis 1.2s. I paid $5500 flor the 1Bs in 85 so I am looking at spending $200,000 plus to upgrade. I do not like the Wilson's or the the Magnepan 20.2s or the smaller Nola's. The Vanderstein Model 7 were excellent but dynamically compressed when pushed in a large room. The MBLs were bright to me. I miss Mike Kay at Lyric. His words to me were "it is hard to impossible to fool the laws of physics". Therefore. I am stuck with looking at large speaker systems that push a lot of air and cost a lot of dollars. I am now 71 with some hearing loss but not in the bass frequencies. You only live once so maybe I will make the plunge.

In a room 32' x 17' x 10', I would not put the Genesis 1.2's. They are too large.

Here's a customer in a room about the size of yours and upgrading from IRS Beta.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12398-Genesis-System

 

[MrAcoustat]

In a room 32' x 17' x 10', I would not put the Genesis 1.2's. They are too large.

Here's a customer in a room about the size of yours and upgrading from IRS Beta.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12398-Genesis-System

Hey Gary the room shown looks more like 17' x 32' than 32' x 17' that's a huge difference.

 

[ruxtonvet]

The Perreaux is on the bass towers. The room is 32' long , 17' wide and 10 feet high with a large skylight over the speakers that brings the height up to 13 feet.

 

[LL21]

will be watching this thread carefully to see how you progress with your consideration of the big Genesis or Nolas. Both great speakers by all accounts, and having heard the earlier Genesis 1.1s, I remain extraordinarily impressed with them...and I heard them in a room very similar in proportion to yours.

 

[garylkoh]

Hey Gary the room shown looks more like 17' x 32' than 32' x 17' that's a huge difference.

Still - wide enough, but not far away enough. In a room 17' x 32' (narrow and long) I would ideally like another foot in width even for the "narrow Dragon".

However, there are enough pictures on WBF of the Genesis I and Genesis 1.1 in extremely (too small to me) rooms. But, you still have to remember that the G1.2 does have TWENTY FOUR 12-inch woofers. You need larger volume, or the room open to large space. A large room with closed doors - your ears will pop.

In ruxtonvet's room, the only difference between the big Nola and the G2.2 would be that the Genesis would have ribbons (like his RS1B) and not PODD (plain old dynamic drivers)

 

[LL21]

Still - wide enough, but not far away enough. In a room 17' x 32' (narrow and long) I would ideally like another foot in width even for the "narrow Dragon".

However, there are enough pictures on WBF of the Genesis I and Genesis 1.1 in extremely (too small to me) rooms. But, you still have to remember that the G1.2 does have TWENTY FOUR 12-inch woofers. You need larger volume, or the room open to large space. A large room with closed doors - your ears will pop.

In ruxtonvet's room, the only difference between the big Nola and the G2.2 would be that the Genesis would have ribbons (like his RS1B) and not PODD (plain old dynamic drivers)

Hi Gary,

Just so I start to understand the evolution of your speakers:

Genesis 1.2
- Infinity IRS Beta (up thru Series V)
- Genesis 1.1

Genesis 2.2
- Infinity RS1Bs
- Genesis 201
- Genesis 2

Genesis 2.2Jr
- Genesis II.5 (Stereophile Jan 8, 1995 Review)

Is this correct? Among other things, trying to figure out where the RS1B fits in since it is a shorter 4-tower design. Thanks.

 

[garylkoh]

The history of Infinity is complex, and since the brand is now owned by Harman, this comment is not to be construed as "definitive" and I should defer to them.

The Infinity IRS Beta is a different animal - it's not a line source as it has a ribbon tweeter, ribbon midrange, two ribbon mid-bass and woofer towers. The RS1B though, has a line source ribbon midrange array, and three ribbon tweeters. So, it is more like the Genesis II.5, but as it is a 4-tower design, it would be somewhere between a short G II.5 and a short G II.

The G II.5 developed into the G300, then G350, then G350SE.

I tried to rationalize the Genesis range into:

1) Genesis 1 : this is the ultimate cost-be-damned versions, line source, 4-tower with huge wide wings. You need to live in a castle or at least a mansion. I would put the Infinity IRS in this category.

2) Genesis 2 : this is the first level down, line source and smaller rooms. Current model is the G2.2 (4-tower) and G2Jr (2-tower). The Infinities in this series have the tag "beta" as in IRS Beta, RS1B (shorter but line source), etc.

3) Genesis 3 : still a twinkle in my eye

4) Genesis 4 : no more a line-source (because of size/height constraints). The current G4 has a ribbon tweeter, ribbon midrange and dynamic mid-bass couplers. The old Infinity equivalent would have been a 2-tower version of the IRS Beta, or the IRS Gamma.

 

[garylkoh]

Also, check out Robert Martin's page here: http://www.bobbyshred.com/

 

[MrAcoustat]

Still - wide enough, but not far away enough. In a room 17' x 32' (narrow and long) I would ideally like another foot in width even for the "narrow Dragon".

However, there are enough pictures on WBF of the Genesis I and Genesis 1.1 in extremely (too small to me) rooms. But, you still have to remember that the G1.2 does have TWENTY FOUR 12-inch woofers. You need larger volume, or the room open to large space. A large room with closed doors - your ears will pop.

In ruxtonvet's room, the only difference between the big Nola and the G2.2 would be that the Genesis would have ribbons (like his RS1B) and not PODD (plain old dynamic drivers)

Hi Gary in all the pictures that i have seen i have always seen only 12 12 inch woofers does that mean that the system is a six piece system not 4 like shown in most pictures. ?????