"Emotionally Engaging"

[mtemur]

the best way to evaluate an audio system is stop test.
while you’re listening an audio system someone or you press the stop button or raise the tonearm. that’s it.
right after that if you feel relieved, or feel better than the system doesn’t sound good. but if you feel like;
why the music stopped,
lets continue listening,
you want to listen the other side of an lp when first side finishes
and when you finish the album you wish there would be more tracks,
than the system under evaluation sounds good and emotionally engaging.

 

[thedudeabides]

What do you think? Do you think in terms of "emotionally engaging" when you listen to and evaluate high-end audio systems?

The only criteria for me. Otherwise, you become a bot.

 

[PeterA]

What do you think? Do you think in terms of "emotionally engaging" when you listen to and evaluate high-end audio systems?

Ron, for me the system must deliver natural resolution at a high-level. Then it is up to the music to deliver emotional engagement.

 

[Fred Crane]

The question is, can greater resolution make a system more emotionally engaging

I think we have a very specific way of defining 'resolution' in the hobby. To the point, that some have commandeered it to mean 'possibly strident'. In real terms, yes, resolution can absolutely lead to more engagement. I think it has to be remembered that within the pantheon of measurements and perceived gains, true resolution is a gift that brings you closer, while 'resolution of a kind' that intimates a trade off, is not truly resolving at all, but a choice in voicing. There are so many things that we don't know how to measure, and some that we don't have a specific vocabulary to describe. One common example of 'resolution of a kind', are undersized tweeters. With the newest shiny 1" tweeter from maker X, you can definitively hear more of everything from 9khz up, BUT, you can't ask a 1" tweeter not to show strain as things become dynamic. If you were to look at the datasheets of any number of lets say, ScanSpeak tweeters, you'll find a good number of them showing frequency response below 500hz. If you're actually expecting them to perform near that area, with a true sense of dynamic shading much less actual 'va voom' you'll get something, but along with it a sense of strain, i.e. tension. Much of this conversation isn't about new information, but simply the way we verbalize it. I gather from your system (if memory serves) that none of this is new to you.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think we have a very specific way of defining 'resolution' in the hobby. To the point, that some have commandeered it to mean 'possibly strident'. In real terms, yes, resolution can absolutely lead to more engagement. I think it has to be remembered that within the pantheon of measurements and perceived gains, true resolution is a gift that brings you closer, while 'resolution of a kind' that intimates a trade off, is not truly resolving at all, but a choice in voicing. There are so many things that we don't know how to measure, and some that we don't have a specific vocabulary to describe. One common example of 'resolution of a kind', are undersized tweeters. With the newest shiny 1" tweeter from maker X, you can definitively hear more of everything from 9khz up, BUT, you can't ask a 1" tweeter not to show strain as things become dynamic. If you were to look at the datasheets of any number of lets say, ScanSpeak tweeters, you'll find a good number of them showing frequency response below 500hz. If you're actually expecting them to perform near that area, with a true sense of dynamic shading much less actual 'va voom' you'll get something, but along with it a sense of strain, i.e. tension. Much of this conversation isn't about new information, but simply the way we verbalize it. I gather from your system (if memory serves) that none of this is new to you.

Fred - Bonzo is the most well travelled audiophile on the planet who doesn’t own a system of his own.

 

[Fred Crane]

Fred - Bonzo is the most well travelled audiophile on the planet who doesn’t own a system of his own.

he he...It looks as though your and Bonzo's systems have more in common than not. Both look like phenomenally fun kits to behold. The down time provided for by the pandemic was good for R&D/creativity. We've been working with new and old compression drivers, and our own. Field coil options are now out for all of the Destination Speakers, with a few new announcements to be made about cobalt rich field coil compression drivers. The fun continues. I wonder if Bonzo has tried the Dava(s)?

 

[bonzo75]

The fun continues. I wonder if Bonzo has tried the Dava(s)?

Waiting for Bill to free up his crazy schedule and two others I will travel to meet including on same system as Neumann DST

 

[Blackmorec]

I believe there really are different shades of emotional engagement…..if I look back to my early days I remember songs like
Aretha Franklin’s I say a little prayer
Canned Heat‘s Goin’ up the country
Bob Dylan’s Rainy Day Women
Jimi Hendrix All along the watch tower
Rolling Stones Jumping Jack Flash and Gimme shelter
Kenny Rodger’s Ruby, don’t take your love to town
The Tornados Telstar
Ike and Tina Turner River Deep Mountain High
and many many others that got the juices flowing even played on a mono, ‘Made in Japan’ transistor radio
These were ‘Favorite Songs‘ that had the ability to generate an emotional response….songs that I deeply loved and could listen to a hundred times without getting bored and they still move me to this day.

But I’m not sure those are what we’re talking about here

For me, today, when I talk about an ‘emotional response’ in connection with hi-fi, I’m talking about music that is so beautifully composed, played AND reproduced that it is able to connect directly to my soul and trigger my subconscious, deeply felt pleasure centres…..those same songs played on a typical smart speaker leave me completely unmoved and often bored and I think therein lies the difference…

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Is "emotionally engaging" a useful part of our high-end audio vocabulary and of our descriptive system?

I do not think so because it is not, in itself, descriptive of the system/sound but only of one's reaction to it.

Do you think in terms of "emotionally engaging" when you listen to and evaluate high-end audio systems?

No. The idea only comes up to me if I am listening to and evaluating music and, even then, it tells another person only about my reaction and not something descriptive of the music..

 

[Lee]

Jim Smith told me his goal in his room play sessions is to increase emotional engagement for the listener. He does this by selecting the best location in the room for the chair and then working on speaker position. When it all locks into place there is a perception of greater resolution from less coloration caused by sub optimal speaker positioning or sitting in the wrong location. At least that is my impression of his method and goal.

When I visited Utah, resolution from all the systems was off the charts and emotional engagement naturally followed. Of course David add optimized each of the systems with careful selection and proper matching of components and set up.

That is what Jim did for me. I did get far more involvement with music after his visit.

 

[Lee]

I do not think so because it is not, in itself, descriptive of the system/sound but only of one's reaction to it.

No. The idea only comes up to me if I am listening to and evaluating music and, even then, it tells another person only about my reaction and not something descriptive of the music..

Agreed but perhaps the solution is to have Jim describe his test tracks and what he is listening for In each track. That connects it to various elements of the sound.

 

[Blackmorec]

I do not think so because it is not, in itself, descriptive of the system/sound but only of one's reaction to it.

No. The idea only comes up to me if I am listening to and evaluating music and, even then, it tells another person only about my reaction and not something descriptive of the music..

Hi Kal,

At some point we keep improving and improving out systems and what eventually happens is that you don’t particularly need more of anything…..frequencies are flat across the audible spectrum, soundstage is huge and enveloping, pace, rhythm and timing are pretty much state of the art, dynamic response sounds fast and natural ….in other words, any further development of the system’s hi-fi attributes would start to drive it into areas of exaggerated or unnatural sound.

But in such cases what further improvements do start to bring, in a very noticeable manner is an increase in the level of stimulation of our subconscious ‘pleasure centres’, including our emotional response. Emotional response is about communicating the composers’, performers’ and the music’s inner message and given that a few very select systems are excellent at doing this and the vast majority don‘t even hint at these qualities, I believe it is clearly a system attribute and indeed one of the most important system attributes. Why important? Because my whole purpose of listening to music is to feel good and some systems can make me feel very good, while others leave me completely unresponsive….bored even.
So I would say, when your system starts to transcend the standard hi-fi attributes and draws you into the music in a high involving but otherwise subconscious way you are really starting to achieve some very important hi-fi goals. Emotional response is what can make an otherwise average to poor recording sound amazing….but to achieve that requires a very special system and i would very much like reviewers to differentiate the systems that do, from those that don’t .
So iMO, a systems ability to appeal to my subconscious brain to generate an emotional reponse is a critically important attribute of that system, because when all the analytical hi-fi attributes are fulfilled, our subconscious reactions will keep getting stronger and more intense as the system improves.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Kal,

At some point we keep improving and improving out systems and what eventually happens is that you don’t particularly need more of anything…..frequencies are flat across the audible spectrum, soundstage is huge and enveloping, pace, rhythm and timing are pretty much state of the art, dynamic response sounds fast and natural ….in other words, any further development of the system’s hi-fi attributes would start to drive it into areas of exaggerated or unnatural sound.

But in such cases what further improvements do start to bring, in a very noticeable manner is an increase in the level of stimulation of our subconscious ‘pleasure centres’, including our emotional response. Emotional response is about communicating the composers’, performers’ and the music’s inner message and given that a few very select systems are excellent at doing this and the vast majority don‘t even hint at these qualities, I believe it is clearly a system attribute and indeed one of the most important system attributes. Why important? Because my whole purpose of listening to music is to feel good and some systems can make me feel very good, while others leave me completely unresponsive….bored even.
So I would say, when your system starts to transcend the standard hi-fi attributes and draws you into the music in a high involving but otherwise subconscious way you are really starting to achieve some very important hi-fi goals. Emotional response is what can make an otherwise average to poor recording sound amazing….but to achieve that requires a very special system and i would very much like reviewers to differentiate the systems that do, from those that don’t .
So iMO, a systems ability to appeal to my subconscious brain to generate an emotional reponse is a critically important attribute of that system, because when all the analytical hi-fi attributes are fulfilled, our subconscious reactions will keep getting stronger and more intense as the system improves.

Very much agreed. The ability of ours systems to immediately lose us in the music is a critical facet and missing from so many hifi systems that make a pleasant “noise” - Tima’s reaction to the Bionors is a good example of where this plays out.

 

[PeterA]

I think emotional engagement is an attribute of the listener’s response to the music being played over a system. It is easier to experience it from a good system well set up.

 

[fbhifi]

Hi Kal,

At some point we keep improving and improving out systems and what eventually happens is that you don’t particularly need more of anything…..frequencies are flat across the audible spectrum, soundstage is huge and enveloping, pace, rhythm and timing are pretty much state of the art, dynamic response sounds fast and natural ….in other words, any further development of the system’s hi-fi attributes would start to drive it into areas of exaggerated or unnatural sound.

But in such cases what further improvements do start to bring, in a very noticeable manner is an increase in the level of stimulation of our subconscious ‘pleasure centres’, including our emotional response. Emotional response is about communicating the composers’, performers’ and the music’s inner message and given that a few very select systems are excellent at doing this and the vast majority don‘t even hint at these qualities, I believe it is clearly a system attribute and indeed one of the most important system attributes. Why important? Because my whole purpose of listening to music is to feel good and some systems can make me feel very good, while others leave me completely unresponsive….bored even.
So I would say, when your system starts to transcend the standard hi-fi attributes and draws you into the music in a high involving but otherwise subconscious way you are really starting to achieve some very important hi-fi goals. Emotional response is what can make an otherwise average to poor recording sound amazing….but to achieve that requires a very special system and i would very much like reviewers to differentiate the systems that do, from those that don’t .
So iMO, a systems ability to appeal to my subconscious brain to generate an emotional reponse is a critically important attribute of that system, because when all the analytical hi-fi attributes are fulfilled, our subconscious reactions will keep getting stronger and more intense as the system improves.

^ What he said. A system that is capable of evoking a positive emotional response will greatly enhance the listeners’ enjoyment in and engagement with his/her favorite music, but of possibly greater importance- allow the listener to discover and enjoy new music they otherwise may have avoided.

 

[wil]

Interesting study of the perception of sounds, what kind of listener are they. that will be the reason why everyone perceives music or speakers differently. I only hear the melody from vocal example 2 onwards
I don't know whether an overtone or fundamental hearer is more emotional, it's exciting.

The same tones can be perceived very differently by different people. The reason for this lies in the brain. Because how a tone sounds depends on structures in the cerebrum: Whoever hears more overtones and thus rather long, sustained, deep sounds, has more gray nerve cell substance in the "auditory center" of the right cerebral cortex, the so-called Heschl's transverse spiral. Those who hear the fundamental tone more strongly or who prefer short, sharp tones have this peculiarity in the left hemisphere.

These are the results of a study that will be published online on August 21, 2005 by Nature Neurosciences and in the September print edition. Scientists from the Biomagnetism Section of the Heidelberg University Clinic for Neurology, together with colleagues from the Universities of Liverpool, Southampton and Maastricht, examined a total of 420 people, the majority of whom were music students and orchestra musicians.

Can you hear the melody? - Take the Hearing Test – I love overtone singing - Wolfgang Saus

With this 3 minute listening test you enter a new dimension of hearing. 95% of musicians do not know this form of listening yet.

www.oberton.org

The Saus Hearing Test, mentioned above, for overtone hearing is interesting: https://www.oberton.org/en/hearing-test-saus/

I sensed (not so much "heard") the melody in the first test which would indicate "pronounced overtone hearing" rather than "fundamental tone hearing."

How might this apply to Audiophilia?

I know I'm sensitive/intolerant of recordings that sound overly reverberant or with loose bass tonality. Many ECM recordings, for example, have this problem for me. I want to hear music with a more incisive quality. This is why I don't care for the euphonic cloud of most 300b tubes as well.

The only way I could interpret this in relation to this test might be that if you're sensitive to overtones, the "over" abundance of overtones will sound excessive. Maybe Manfred Either (of ECM) is more of a fundamental overtone hearer?

As far as the conversation about the necessity of Emotional Engagement in music, I think there's a fairly wide spectrum from Emotional to Intellectual in music. I don't think Emotion has to be the defining quality of music. Some music taps emotions to a greater degree; some is more cerebral. And a lot of great music is flowing along the whole spectrum between the two.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think emotional engagement is an attribute of the listener’s response to the music being played over a system. It is easier to experience it from a good system well set up.

Yes but listening to the exact same music on different systems elicits a different emotional response….

Can vary from disinterested to emotionally enthralled.

 

[mglik]

Not to open the can of worms, analog is the only way I get emotionally engaged. That is the nature of my systems. When I take a deep breath, I get that emotional sensation in my gut. I have a digital headphone system in my office. (Bakoon amp, ZMF Verite cans, Schitt DAC) It sounds great. But it is an intellectual experience. Nothing in my gut.

 

[cmarin]

Hi Kal,

At some point we keep improving and improving out systems and what eventually happens is that you don’t particularly need more of anything…..frequencies are flat across the audible spectrum, soundstage is huge and enveloping, pace, rhythm and timing are pretty much state of the art, dynamic response sounds fast and natural ….in other words, any further development of the system’s hi-fi attributes would start to drive it into areas of exaggerated or unnatural sound.

But in such cases what further improvements do start to bring, in a very noticeable manner is an increase in the level of stimulation of our subconscious ‘pleasure centres’, including our emotional response. Emotional response is about communicating the composers’, performers’ and the music’s inner message and given that a few very select systems are excellent at doing this and the vast majority don‘t even hint at these qualities, I believe it is clearly a system attribute and indeed one of the most important system attributes. Why important? Because my whole purpose of listening to music is to feel good and some systems can make me feel very good, while others leave me completely unresponsive….bored even.
So I would say, when your system starts to transcend the standard hi-fi attributes and draws you into the music in a high involving but otherwise subconscious way you are really starting to achieve some very important hi-fi goals. Emotional response is what can make an otherwise average to poor recording sound amazing….but to achieve that requires a very special system and i would very much like reviewers to differentiate the systems that do, from those that don’t .
So iMO, a systems ability to appeal to my subconscious brain to generate an emotional reponse is a critically important attribute of that system, because when all the analytical hi-fi attributes are fulfilled, our subconscious reactions will keep getting stronger and more intense as the system improves.

“So iMO, a systems ability to appeal to my subconscious brain to generate an emotional reponse is a critically important attribute of that system, because when all the analytical hi-fi attributes are fulfilled, our subconscious reactions will keep getting stronger and more intense as the system improves.”

I would go as far as to say that (emotional response) is the MOST, if NOT THE ONLY, important attribute of the system - for me anyway.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Not to open the can of worms, analog is the only way I get emotionally engaged. That is the nature of my systems. When I take a deep breath, I get that emotional sensation in my gut. I have a digital headphone system in my office. (Bakoon amp, ZMF Verite cans, Schitt DAC) It sounds great. But it is an intellectual experience. Nothing in my gut.

Haha. Can of worms opened. Can’t disagree that well set up analogue tends to more readily elicit this reaction as a % versus digital. Can closed.

Best.