DS Audio ES-001 Eccentricity Detection Stabilizer

[spiritofmusic]

Apologies, I thought I saw a comment that said a bigger hole might need to be reamed more than once.
Re being stuck on it, I guess the prices of new vinyl and Blu Rays/4Ks are reaming my bank account.

 

[rDin]

One ream and you're done for good?

Once the hole is wide enough for the necessary correction, no more reaming.

This is not something that has to be done every listen?

Once only, as above.

And removing the DS (my TT is not designed to be used with a heavy weight) doesn't disturb the new correct alignment.

You would need to be careful, of course as the record is easy to nudge. But with focus it's easy.

I set up a record yesterday and corrected from 145u down to 9u. Lifted the DS. Placed my weight. Listened to the record. Removed my weight. Put the DS on and remeasured - 9u. No movement.

My spindle must be a tad wider than most, very little wiggle room when the LP is on the platter.

Same with my Brinkmann. Which means most records will need reaming if correction is required.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm very wary that a heavy weight is mandatory for this system to be practical, whether the DS unit itself or an alternative. There must be some propensity, even if minor, for the LP to shift slightly upon the enlarged centre hole (and thus off centre again) with a light non restraining LP weight as the record spins.
Maybe someone could test out the DS system and not use a heavy weight when playing an LP, or at most, a 200g puck.
My TT is effectively off limits to any weight/puck exceeding 200g.

 

[Lagonda]

I'm very wary that a heavy weight is mandatory for this system to be practical, whether the DS unit itself or an alternative. There must be some propensity, even if minor, for the LP to shift slightly upon the enlarged centre hole (and thus off centre again) with a light non restraining LP weight as the record spins.
Maybe someone could test out the DS system and not use a heavy weight when playing an LP, or at most, a 200g puck.
My TT is effectively off limits to any weight/puck exceeding 200g.

Hopefully you don't change your mind about using the DS after reaming your records. Records would not fit regular spindles very well afterwards, i would not buy records from anyone using it.

 

[rDin]

Hopefully you don't change your mind about using the DS after reaming your records. Records would not fit regular spindles very well afterwards, i would not buy records from anyone using it.

Wouldn’t necessarily be that different, depending on your spindle width. On the Rega RP10 I had the spindle was narrow. Every record had some wriggle room. The Brinkmann I use now is a snug fit to most records, but even with this wider spindle some records have wriggle room. Hole cutting during pressing is variable. Reaming is adding a little wriggle room. Most won’t hear an issue unless you know what it sounds like corrected.

 

[rDin]

I'm very wary that a heavy weight is mandatory for this system to be practical, whether the DS unit itself or an alternative. There must be some propensity, even if minor, for the LP to shift slightly upon the enlarged centre hole (and thus off centre again) with a light non restraining LP weight as the record spins.
Maybe someone could test out the DS system and not use a heavy weight when playing an LP, or at most, a 200g puck.
My TT is effectively off limits to any weight/puck exceeding 200g.

Just tested this for you on my worst record, and thus the biggest hole. Played the record at 45RPM to add extra spin stress. Before play, 6u, after play 63u [edit: that record's default error is 700, so even with movement a massive improvement]. So, yes, without a weight there was some movement during play. It’s possible I nudged the record, but was careful not to. I’ve got a light puck somewhere. I try the same test with that later.

 

[hb22]

Some new records actually need reaming if the hole is smaller than the spindle. And some records are pressed with holes wider than spindles. Are they destroyed? Of course not. It's true that reaming a record will forever change it, but we're only talking small amounts and as most of us have lived very happily for decades with off centred records, it's not really changing much most would even notice. Plus you can drop the record on the platter with the new hole centred around the spindle and it will play exactly as it did previously.

If you ask me, I would ban this device from sale...

 

[gds7368]

Once the hole is wide enough for the necessary correction, no more reaming.

Once only, as above.

You would need to be careful, of course as the record is easy to nudge. But with focus it's easy.

I set up a record yesterday and corrected from 145u down to 9u. Lifted the DS. Placed my weight. Listened to the record. Removed my weight. Put the DS on and remeasured - 9u. No movement.

Same with my Brinkmann. Which means most records will need reaming if correction is required.

I would estimate 1 in 25 of my records need reaming, probably less than that. And I never touch a friend's records.

 

[spiritofmusic]

If you ask me, I would ban this device from sale...

That's the spirit! Lol

 

[rDin]

OK, so here's something you can do for fun to eyeball your error...

Stand over the record while it's spinning and look down at the grooves between tracks and take in the wider context of the nearby tracks too. Keep looking down and assess whether there's any movement of the gaps and/or sense of sway on the surrounding tracks.

No visible movement: your error is likely < 50u
Almost imperceptible: around 100u
Gentle sway: 150u
Strong sway: >300u
Aggressive sway: >700u

Obviously you can look at the headshell front on while on the record and take note of the sway and the higher the off centre, the wider the range of sway. You may also see the cantilever shimmying in the groove.

But even at the "no visible movement" area you find the DS can correct <10u and you get sound quality improvements, particularly in the 3D-ness of the soundstage.

 

[spiritofmusic]

On average, how much wider are newly reamed spindle holes?

 

[rDin]

On average, how much wider are newly reamed spindle holes?

Depending on the error, but up to 8mm - maybe bigger. Standard hole size for records being ~7.2mm - most adjustments so far have been no more than adding 0.1-0.3mm to the hole size.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So you mean a max of additional 0.8mm to 7.2mm standard?

 

[rDin]

Sorry, I misread your post. YES, a max additional of 0.8mm for bad records. Average additional much lower.

 

[rDin]

I tried a lighter puck - the Origin Live, which comes in at 66g. Correction was 13u. After playing at 45RPM the correction was out at 45u. So still some movement under the lighter weight, but better than no weight. Clearly a weight (or vacuum, or tight spindle) is needed to stop records from moving when they spin. Or I nudged the record. But, again today I double checked replay with my near 1kg weight and the before and after were identical - no movement.

 

[Lagonda]

OK, so here's something you can do for fun to eyeball your error...

Stand over the record while it's spinning and look down at the grooves between tracks and take in the wider context of the nearby tracks too. Keep looking down and assess whether there's any movement of the gaps and/or sense of sway on the surrounding tracks.

No visible movement: your error is likely < 50u
Almost imperceptible: around 100u
Gentle sway: 150u
Strong sway: >300u
Aggressive sway: >700u

Obviously you can look at the headshell front on while on the record and take note of the sway and the higher the off centre, the wider the range of sway. You may also see the cantilever shimmying in the groove.

But even at the "no visible movement" area you find the DS can correct <10u and you get sound quality improvements, particularly in the 3D-ness of the soundstage.

With a tangential airborne arm, the movements of the arm are very apparent when the center hole is of. Before and after results of re-centering were clear on my Nakamichi TT, sound differences not so much.

 

[rDin]

With a tangential airborne arm, the movements of the arm are very apparent when the center hole is of[f]

Yeah, same with normal arm - you easily see the sway at the headshell, and of course the arm - the worse the eccentricity the worse the sway.

 

[iaxel]

Any experience with the new ES-002 Core model?
If I plan to use the device just to center the record and not as a clamp (using my own clamp), will it loose some of its effectiveness when I remove the ES and place my own clamp? (after centering the record)

 

[rDin]

It's certainly doable.

Using the ES-002 Core here. Firstly, as a weight, I find it inferior in sound to my Synergistic Research. I had hoped to use the ES-002 as the weight, for simplicity, but quickly heard the difference and switched back. What I do is correct with the ES-002. Stop the platter. Lift the ES-002. Place the weight. If you can do that without knocking the spindle, which can shift the record, or without nudging the record at the edge, then it's easy to switch over to the preferred weight/clamp. You can confirm this by removing the weight/clamp and doing a subsequent reading with the ES-002. You shouldn't see any consequential change.

 

[iaxel]

It's certainly doable.

Great!

Using the ES-002 Core here. Firstly, as a weight, I find it inferior in sound to my Synergistic Research. I had hoped to use the ES-002 as the weight, for simplicity, but quickly heard the difference and switched back. What I do is correct with the ES-002. Stop the platter. Lift the ES-002. Place the weight. If you can do that without knocking the spindle, which can shift the record, or without nudging the record at the edge, then it's easy to switch over to the preferred weight/clamp. You can confirm this by removing the weight/clamp and doing a subsequent reading with the ES-002. You shouldn't see any consequential change.

Thank you for confirming. As I also have my concerns about the sound quality of the DS Audio as a clamp, compared to other clamps (which I already have proven results from).