Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

matthias

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From.this picture you can see what i mean , if a speaker has sufficient bass out put it can be placed free in the room .
If it needs the walls its already a compromise
If it had sufficient bass they wouldn't have released a sub for it.

Matt
 

Al M.

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If it had sufficient bass they wouldn't have released a sub for it.

Matt

Almost no speaker, "full range" (lol) or not, has sufficient bass not to need a sub. Exceptions among some really large speakers allowed.
 

caesar

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Almost no speaker, "full range" (lol) or not, has sufficient bass not to need a sub. Exceptions among some really large speakers allowed.

Yes, I think most serious audio companies understand the need for subwoofers for realism: ,Avantgarde Trio and MBL Extreme, for example, come with very tall subwoofer towers as part of the package. As do Mike L's speakers.

Wilson and Magico sell sub woofers as add ons.

What exceptions are you thinking of, out of curiousity?
 

matthias

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If it needs the walls its already a compromise
There are speakers designed to be placed in close proximity, say about 10 cm to the wall. i would not call these a compromise.

Matt
 

Al M.

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Yes, I think most serious audio companies understand the need for subwoofers for realism: ,Avantgarde Trio and MBL Extreme, for example, come with very tall subwoofer towers as part of the package. As do Mike L's speakers.

Wilson and Magico sell sub woofers as add ons.

What exceptions are you thinking of, out of curiousity?

It depends on what you call it. I don't view the large bass towers of Mike L's speakers, which are already an integral part of the speaker design, as being subwoofers. But yes, those kinds of speakers are an example of what I had in mind as ones that don't appear to need subwoofers.

We seem to agree in principle, even though perhaps not on the semantics.
 

sbnx

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OK. So somehow this thread turned to subwoofers. Subwoofer are just as sensitive to setup as the main speakers. Perhaps even more so since they have to be integrated with the mains. What is extremely interesting to me is that the discussion is that there is not enough bass. Not a peep that the subs in the WIlson room stuck out or didn't sound right or any of the more "normal" comments that seem to pop up in a subwoofer conversation. This is due to proper attention to minute detail in the setup.

While speakers with large bass towers (e.g. MM7's, YG XV, Gryphon, etc.) are designed with these in mind they still have to be meticulously integrated.
 

sbnx

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I spent this past weekend at the Lone Star Audiofest. This is a very laid back, small show where it is really more about being social with friends you have not seen in a year than it is finding the best new thing. There were two standout rooms. One was the Infigo room and the other was the Rosso Fiorintino room. Both rooms had Rosso speakers. And although I have always liked the sound of Rosso Fiorintino in general what these two systems showed off was what can be achieved in a hotel room.

The sound was really fantastic. Especailly in the room with the Certaldo speakers. There was zero bass boom. The sound was clear and extended in both directions. Very good imaging and soundstage. Vocals sounded inviting and I could connect with the singer. Skip played some EDM by infected Mushroom at pretty high levels that could pound your chest and really pressurize the room. It was very clear and clean sounding -- never sounded out of control or muddy or boomy. I was in that room quite a bit and heard the amazement of several visitors who could not believe how good and how much bass was coming out of those speakers.

Why was this room so special? Well, I will give some credit to the great sound that Rosso Fiorintino and Norma electronics make in general. But without attention to a detailed setup the sound would have been just like all of the other hotel rooms in this show and the other shows like AXPONA. Most of the bad sound that we are having to tolerate at the shows comes down to one of two things. Either the dealer is too lazy to be bothered with spending the time to get things right or they lack the skill to get it right. It is possible to do as Skip just illustrated. They need to stop blaming the room and step up. If I was in the market for speakers at this show the Certaldo would have shot to the top of my list based on the others I heard there. There was one exhibitor there with a $25K two way that didn't even come close to the Certaldo sound at $10k.

1685971262125.png
 
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sbo6

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I spent this past weekend at the Lone Star Audiofest. This is a very laid back, small show where it is really more about being social with friends you have not seen in a year than it is finding the best new thing. There were two standout rooms. One was the Infigo room and the other was the Rosso Fiorintino room. Both rooms had Rosso speakers. And although I have always liked the sound of Rosso Fiorintino in general what these two systems showed off was what can be achieved in a hotel room.

The sound was really fantastic. Especailly in the room with the Certaldo speakers. There was zero bass boom. The sound was clear and extended in both directions. Very good imaging and soundstage. Vocals sounded inviting and I could connect with the singer. Skip played some EDM by infected Mushroom at pretty high levels that could pound your chest and really pressurize the room. It was very clear and clean sounding -- never sounded out of control or muddy or boomy. I was in that room quite a bit and heard the amazement of several visitors who could not believe how good and how much bass was coming out of those speakers.

Why was this room so special? Well, I will give some credit to the great sound that Rosso Fiorintino and Norma electronics make in general. But without attention to a detailed setup the sound would have been just like all of the other hotel rooms in this show and the other shows like AXPONA. Most of the bad sound that we are having to tolerate at the shows comes down to one of two things. Either the dealer is too lazy to be bothered with spending the time to get things right or they lack the skill to get it right. It is possible to do as Skip just illustrated. They need to stop blaming the room and step up. If I was in the market for speakers at this show the Certaldo would have shot to the top of my list based on the others I heard there. There was one exhibitor there with a $25K two way that didn't even come close to the Certaldo sound at $10k.

View attachment 111288
What, no love for my Kef Metas? ;-)

The Rosso Fiorentino / Infigo Audio room was really quite special. I went there several times and spent some time with the Infigo designer sharing a beer back at my room. Some innovative tech in that gear IMO.
 

sbnx

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What, no love for my Kef Metas? ;-)

The Rosso Fiorentino / Infigo Audio room was really quite special. I went there several times and spent some time with the Infigo designer sharing a beer back at my room. Some innovative tech in that gear IMO.
The KEF Metas did sound good. But that room was always packed and I never really got a chance to sit in the sweet spot and listen.
 
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sbo6

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The KEF Metas did sound good. But that room was always packed and I never really got a chance to sit in the sweet spot and listen.
Completely joking, it was a fun little show with some better than typical equipment and systems than previously.
 

sbnx

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Completely joking, it was a fun little show with some better than typical equipment and systems than previously.
Understood. Yes, LSAF is fun every year. Your room was a blast. Free Beer! Thanks for setting it up.
 
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treitz3

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2-3 years ago? I got down to an 1/8 of an inch. On all perimeters. ALL.

Now that I am down to less than a 1/16th of an inch or less? It makes a huge difference as to what you hear/experience.

Sbnx makes a big case about this (as evidenced by this thread) and we may be in the few that consider this VERY important, but we do. It is important. Very important. Even with a modest setup. When you have a more than modest to stellar system? You owe it to yourself and your audio journey to do it right.

I mean, really right.

Tom
 

sbnx

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Good job Tom. 1/16" is just over 1.5mm. You are getting close. The real magic happens when the adjustments are under 1mm. And spike adjustments are in the 1/64th or less of a turn. Keep going.
 

Another Johnson

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Good job Tom. 1/16" is just over 1.5mm. You are getting close. The real magic happens when the adjustments are under 1mm. And spike adjustments are in the 1/64th or less of a turn. Keep going.
It’s also tied closely to the Brinell hardness profile of the spikes. Sadly, the only reliable proof strategy is destructive. :eek:
 
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sbo6

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Good job Tom. 1/16" is just over 1.5mm. You are getting close. The real magic happens when the adjustments are under 1mm. And spike adjustments are in the 1/64th or less of a turn. Keep going.
I'm curious if anyone ran measurements with such minute changes and if they're identifiable.

I'm not questioning the benefits more possibly pointing out the limitations of measuring tools.
 
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treitz3

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Good job Tom. 1/16" is just over 1.5mm. You are getting close. The real magic happens when the adjustments are under 1mm. And spike adjustments are in the 1/64th or less of a turn. Keep going.
Hey bud! I'll get there. The current room is on carpet over a joist suspended floor, the spikes are dulled at the points, so this is as close as I can get right now.

The new room will be on a concrete slab and the spikes will be ultra sharp (sharp enough to prick and draw blood easily) and also on pucks. No carpet. Should make it much easier to get tighter tolerances. Here's what I use to dial everything in;

1695846547032.png

It took me about 6 hours of getting the speakers exactly where they need to be, adjust toe in for a perfect blend of tonal balance, a wide sound stage width - without losing the phantom center image(s). I'll keep checking every three or so hours to see if anything has shifted (especially after giving the rig a good workout with demanding loads) but after all that work? It was SO worth it to the end result as to what hits my ears now.

That Digi-Pas really helps out with 6 and a half foot tall speakers. No more up and down, up and down. Just set the unit on top of the speaker, set my phone down on the floor and dial in. Then check all of the other parameters to make sure they are still within tolerance. One adjustment can knock out one or more parameters, so this has to be done again and again until all of the parameters are correct.

But when you are done? Bliss. Pure, unadulterated musical bliss.

Tom
 
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Elliot G.

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Hey bud! I'll get there. The current room is on carpet over a joist suspended floor, the spikes are dulled at the points, so this is as close as I can get right now.

The new room will be on a concrete slab and the spikes will be ultra sharp (sharp enough to prick and draw blood easily) and also on pucks. No carpet. Should make it much easier to get tighter tolerances. Here's what I use to dial everything in;

View attachment 117306

It took me about 6 hours of getting the speakers exactly where they need to be, adjust toe in for a perfect blend of tonal balance, a wide sound stage width - without losing the phantom center image(s). I'll keep checking every three or so hours to see if anything has shifted (especially after giving the rig a good workout with demanding loads) but after all that work? It was SO worth it to the end result as to what hits my ears now.

That Digi-Pas really helps out with 6 and a half foot tall speakers. No more up and down, up and down. Just set the unit on top of the speaker, set my phone down on the floor and dial in. Then check all of the other parameters to make sure they are still within tolerance. One adjustment can knock out one or more parameters, so this has to be done again and again until all of the parameters are correct.

But when you are done? Bliss. Pure, unadulterated musical bliss.

Tom
NIce , just a suggestion if I may. Keep up the exacting work. I am not a spike fan and would suggest you find some adjustable footers for your speakers ( not suggesting brand specific) but on a floor they work great and I believe will give you a better result than spikes, and depending on what you choose much easier adjustability.
Good listening
 
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treitz3

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Thanks, Elliot. I am always open to suggestions. When you say better results, what would the changes be in your experience?

I was thinking that I would get a set of outriggers that could handle the weight of the speakers (250 pounds each) and that would also give them a wider footprint, then adding custom Stainless Steel spikes to them. At least that's the plan...

Tom
 

sbnx

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IMO, the digipas level that is accurate to 3 decimal places is a must for accurate speaker setup. It is a pricey little bugger.

I like the idea of outriggers and spikes. If you make custom spikes drill a few holes around the perimeter or one through hole about 1/16" . Then you can get a 3 - 4" steel rod that can be used for easy and precise turning of the threads. Also, since you are doing custom get fine thread. This gives a lot more control than say M8X1.5.

SInce we are discussing speaker feet ... Some speaker manufacturers pay attention to this but most don't. The spikes or feet are an afterthought. Goebel does a good job as does Stenheim. The only issue I have is that for people on carpet they need to provide a spike that is sharp enough and long enough to actually penetrate the carpet+pad and get down to the substrate. "Floating" the speaker on the carpet is bad.
 
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