Dealing With Large Glass Windows and Doors WITHOUT Spoiling the View?

[musicfirst1]

Is it possible to acoustically treat a listening room that features panoramic windows and/or doors without putting large absorbers and diffusers against them that spoil the view?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is it possible to acoustically treat a listening room that features panoramic windows and/or doors without putting large absorbers and diffusers against them that spoil the view?

you ask a relative question.

there is no magic treatment for a listening room that can acoustically neutralize a window unless you somehow cover it.

large glass surfaces will always compromise ultimate music reproduction performance. the question will be to what degree, and what are your expectations for large scale music? many rooms like this can sound very fine, only that how much more 'fine' could they sound without the glass surfaces?

you can choose driver types that might less 'engage' the glass surfaces. which will also depend on how close the windows are to the speakers and the orientation of the windows to the speakers.

and maybe you simply want to enjoy the view mostly for casual listening, but have the option to cover the windows acoustically for your most critical listening.

a friend of mine has a very excellent all Naim system in a beautiful room with full width floor to ceiling windows overlooking Puget Sound in Seattle. literally a breathtaking view. there are no window coverings. it sounds great. no sense that anything is missing. but unless those windows were covered who knows how great it could sound. he is a professional photographer and cinematographer and will never cover those windows. he is happy, and i loved how his system sounded.

 

[CKKeung]

ASI SugarCubes :
http://www.asi-resonators.com/sugar_cubes.html




Combak Harmonix Room Tuning Devices :
http://www.combak.net/roomtune/roomtuning.html
http://www.combak.net/roomtune/applicationguide.htm

 

[musicfirst1]

ASI SugarCubes :
http://www.asi-resonators.com/sugar_cubes.html

View attachment 62191
View attachment 62192

Combak Harmonix Room Tuning Devices :
http://www.combak.net/roomtune/roomtuning.html
http://www.combak.net/roomtune/applicationguide.htm

Just how big are these "cubes"?

 

[CKKeung]

Just how big are these "cubes"?

 

[cjfrbw]

This is one of those trick questions, like using SET amps with inefficient ribbons, isn't it?

 

[ddk]

Is it possible to acoustically treat a listening room that features panoramic windows and/or doors without putting large absorbers and diffusers against them that spoil the view?

There are different things one can do but it all depends on the size and layout of your room, also if it’s dedicated or multi-use space. The system matters too. Acoustic solutions should be specific not generic!

david

 

[Tango]

Change speakers to horn.

 

[microstrip]

you ask a relative question.

there is no magic treatment for a listening room that can acoustically neutralize a window unless you somehow cover it.

large glass surfaces will always compromise ultimate music reproduction performance. the question will be to what degree, and what are your expectations for large scale music? many rooms like this can sound very fine, only that how much more 'fine' could they sound without the glass surfaces?
(... ) .

Mike,

Do you have data that supports such strong statement ? There are many types of class, some of them have very different acoustical properties from common cheap window 4mm glass. A good friend has an house with a room
with a large window with a fantastic mountain view. Although he does not have an audio system, for safety reasons the window is made of special and very expensive tamper free glass, harder to break than a brick wall, that does not sound at all like glass panel when you tap it. Unfortunately I could not get acoustic data on these special glasses.

 

[Tango]

Mike,

Do you have data that supports such strong statement ? There are many types of class, some of them have very different acoustical properties from common cheap window 4mm glass. A good friend has an house with a room
with a large window with a fantastic mountain view. Although he does not have an audio system, for safety reasons the window is made of special and very expensive tamper free glass, harder to break than a brick wall, that does not sound at all like glass panel when you tap it. Unfortunately I could not get acoustic data on these special glasses.

I think Mike simply saying no glass is better than glass and I agree. The super smooth hard surface is the factor also not just how strong, how hard, how it could vibrate that effect sound.

 

[Gregadd]

Heavy lined drapes.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

Do you have data that supports such strong statement ? There are many types of class, some of them have very different acoustical properties from common cheap window 4mm glass. A good friend has an house with a room
with a large window with a fantastic mountain view. Although he does not have an audio system, for safety reasons the window is made of special and very expensive tamper free glass, harder to break than a brick wall, that does not sound at all like glass panel when you tap it. Unfortunately I could not get acoustic data on these special glasses.

we know i'm not ever a data guy, i only observe.

as i said in my post, there are plenty of fine sounding systems with lots of glass, like the one i described, or the one you described. and we can't predict acoustics by pictures or even seeing in person. OTOH the absence of glass or other large smooth reflective surface, will be better than with it. and the only question would be whether the system is resolving enough, or is pushed far enough, to obviously reveal it. we are talking about glass in a spot that is relevant to the speakers (musical energy) in some prominent way.

i agree that special super heavy (for want of a better term) bullet-proof glass in an appropriate heavy duty frame will at least not resonate like most any residential glass, but it's still a large smooth flat reflective surface. and it's very hard, and so will have a tonal effect that cannot be eliminated. push the system far enough and it will make it's presence known, maybe by it's removal......as mostly that is the only way to really know.

part if the effect of glass is that it has a different room boundary effect on the music than the wall. so that discontinuity will affect the sound-staging and bass coherence, not just higher frequency tonality or brightness. think of it like a suck out and hole in the soundstage. will every system be refined enough to reveal that? no. so the effect will be present but maybe not relevant to the listener context.

as i also said, the large scale music expectations one has will be a part of whether the effect of glass is important.

I think Mike simply saying no glass is better than glass and I agree. The super smooth hard surface is the factor also not just how strong, how hard, how it could vibrate that effect sound.

thank you Tang. i agree.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Change speakers to horn.

I was once tasked with designing custom speakers for a large room where preserving the view of the nearby Grand Teton mountain range out of the thirty-something-foot-wide windows was a top priority.

I went with horn speakers short enough (38 inches) to only minimally infringe on the windows, not enough to affect the view of the mountains themselves. The backs of the speakers went up against the windows, thus avoiding significant early reflections off the windows. No dedicated acoustic treatment seemed to be necessary. Not that this is the only possible solution, but it worked well in this case. The client and his wife were evidently happy with how it turned out, as they subsequently had me design three more sets of custom speakers tailored to three other rooms. (His other "main" system, in a basement room, included a pair of big SoundLab electrostats which he had owned for over a decade, so it's not like he was a "horn guy" to start with.)

Anyway, the part of this most likely to be applicable is, aiming the speakers away from the windows. Musicfirst100, would it be feasible to place your Rockports with their backs to the windows?

 

[Lagonda]

I designed my old listening/living room in a Miami condo with 180 degree ocean view. 16 separate
acoustical/black out curtains with
different settings for critical music
listening, movies and party mode.
The room had no parallel walls,
hurricane proof floor to ceiling glass
and granite floors. The end result
was surprisingly good for critical
music listening. The 120 inch
screen and the center speaker
had motors and disappeared into
the ceiling when not in use.
The door into the kitchen was a floor
to ceiling bass absorber/diffuser that
could slide for opening/closing.
The speakers where dipoles, and
i preferred the sound with floor to ceiling absorbers/ diffusers behind
them, also on sliders, so they did not obstruct the view when not in use.
The only pictures i have, where not taken to document the system
regretfully

 

[Tango]

I designed my old listening/living room in a Miami condo with 180 degree ocean view. 16 separate
acoustical/black out curtains with
different settings for critical music
listening, movies and party mode.
The room had no parallel walls,
hurricane proof floor to ceiling glass
and granite floors. The end result
was surprisingly good for critical
music listening. The 120 inch
screen and the center speaker
had motors and disappeared into
the ceiling when not in use.
The door into the kitchen was a floor
to ceiling bass absorber/diffuser that
could slide for opening/closing.
The speakers where dipoles, and
i preferred the sound with floor to ceiling absorbers/ diffusers behind
them, also on sliders, so they did not obstruct the view when not in use.
The only pictures i have, where not taken to document the system
regretfully

Beautiful absorber.

 

[Lagonda]

Beautiful absorber.

She is best for mid frequency’s

 

[Folsom]

Tang is correct that directional speakers help tremendously, and are very cost effective if you buy the right ones.

The other thing to do is use laminated safety glass. It’s very evenly reflective. It’s thick, very inert, and very expensive. You want the stuff they build skyscrapers with. It’s like changing a wall to wood, reflective somewhat but not offensive.

Please ignore the paranoid crowd about glass being intrinsically magically bad no matter what. Glass plays by the same physics as everything else. Just because it looks smooth doesn’t mean a lot.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I had an appartment with a lot of uncovered glass as well ,it was on the seventh floor with a nice wide look on Amsterdam .
I was at that time more busy with building speakers/ swapping amps rather then system/ room optimalisation .
I still not have the room -acoustics 100 % at my current place, but its easier/ relaxter to listen to without all the glass , its not that high on my priority list at the moment actually , but I know it matters a lot for optimum performance .
When I buy a place again , I want to have a room in a room construction which is off course really quit ( improves dynamic range of system ) plus you can play as loud as you want anytime .
I assume to have : And a great view And good acoustics you need to be able to cover the windows with blinds/ curtains or something , preferably with a electrical remote , so if you wanna enjoy the view you just press a button
What I do found out is that you get used to it after a while( listen through it ) , it seems your hearing adapts and you dont hear it as much anymore .
But if you step fresh into a room like that its much more difficult.
I think that's what ron and ked also experienced .
I havent changed anything in the speakers since the review and the highs / music layers/ spacial info is beautifull, just by placing them somewhere else.

Ps plus my analogue tape system is now much better , because the machines are finally repaired / checked up to 100 % spec and the tubed Eternal Arts tapestage sounds very promising after a days listening


https://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/02/andromeda-design-visit-report.html

I think if you would place my speakers/ system in a room like Mike Lavigne has for example, it would be one of the best stereo expiriences one could buy / have regardless of price ( if everything else is in order as well off course.)
Its the only way to get to a toplevel

 

[microstrip]

I think Mike simply saying no glass is better than glass and I agree. The super smooth hard surface is the factor also not just how strong, how hard, how it could vibrate that effect sound.

we know i'm not ever a data guy, i only observe.
(...)

This is my point - how can we be sure that we are not simply and wrongly transposing our visual perceptions of glass, obtained mostly from its reflectivity in the optical bandwidth (400-800nm wavelength) and touch of common glass to the audio zone (20mm- 20m wavelength)? Would we have the same feeling if the glass was painted in mat black?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is my point - how can we be sure that we are not simply and wrongly transposing our visual perceptions of glass, obtained mostly from its reflectivity in the optical bandwidth (400-800nm wavelength) and touch of common glass to the audio zone (20mm- 20m wavelength)? Would we have the same feeling if the glass was painted in mat black?

what is being sure?

based on my observations (no visual inference to that), glass never helps, and ridding your system of it's consequences does always help (however subtly). painting it black does not alter it's hardness and it's difference compared to a wall structure.

how committed to the pursuit of perfect sound reproduction are you? and how dedicated to music reproduction is your space?

i miss my view every day. but not as much as i love my musical rightness. i've made lots of those type of decisions.

i don't have any 'micro-level' proof or data. but i also have zero doubts about it.