Ddk

[treitz3]

Why continue to dump on David?. He has left and is gone.

You incorrectly assumed that I was referring to David. I was not.

I have no reason to dump on David....and even if I did? I wouldn't. I am better than that.
I personally would like to see him resume posting and all of this drama done with. We are all adults here. It's high time some people start acting like it.

Tom

 

[spiritofmusic]

What do you mean by "some people"? All I see is one individual, a highly esteemed figure, who is alone amongst us in saying he won't be moderated, and once he was, he left.
Noone else is claiming the same. David was always his own man. Maybe if I'd thought I was above moderation, I'd have adopted his regular tone of, uh, certainty. Lol
The rest of us are commenting on this, mainly in good humour, no mutinous dialog.
I'd actually say this reflects all of us in a good light.
For me, only one individual has failed to be reflected well.

 

[Gregadd]

Greg, it's ALL a gray area lol.

Not really. Some things are settled.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Greg, it's ALL a gray area lol.

I disagree. I think sometimes discussions go off the rails due to the “keyboard warrior” phenomenon.

I personally think that one helpful self-test is: if you wouldn’t say it to the recipient in person, then don’t write it to the recipient online.

 

[Elliot G.]

I disagree. I think sometimes discussions go off the rails due to the “keyboard warrior” phenomenon.

I personally think that one helpful self-test is: if you wouldn’t say it to the recipient in person, then don’t write it to the recipient online.

The world we live in allows via avatar people to be invisible and therefore allow them to say things they never would say face to face. Freedom to speak or write is fine but don't ever assume it has no results nor consequences.
We have the power to choose and doing nothing or doing something are both choices. I do believe the tenor of this forum as a whole has become more tribal, more negative and less open over the last year or so. I don't think that is a good thing and I don't like seeing people withdraw or leave even if I don't agree with them.

 

[Gregadd]

Let me be clear I am vehemently opposed to prior restraint and content-based censorship. The current legal climate platforms have an unclear duty to police their content. Rather than indulge in the minutia of what is libel/slander many just chose not to deal with it.
I don't agree with anonymous moderators. With one exception I always use my real name. Even then I self outed. I wanted to see how my opinion would be recieved if they did noto who Iwas. No difference.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I disagree. I think sometimes discussions go off the rails due to the “keyboard warrior” phenomenon.

I personally think that one helpful self-test is: if you wouldn’t say it to the recipient in person, then don’t write it to the recipient online.

No disrespect Ron, but the area where I've been asked to back off lest a 3 day ban was imminent is exactly the discussion I'd have with you or anyone, in private or in public. Unfortunately it rocked the boat with a certain product, and my continued involvement on the thread was terminated by me. Strangely Dave managed to get away with way more corruscating criticism of a product using hugely more personal and unreasonable terms, way beyond anything I'd attempt. Maybe because he considered himself above the moderators.
Fascinatingly if any of us attempted real time moderation on the fly, ie argued back, we were also rebuffed in no uncertain terms.
Look, we're all big boys here, but plenty of us have had bans and we're still here. But not all.

 

[adyc]

No disrespect Ron, but the area where I've been asked to back off lest a 3 day ban was imminent is exactly the discussion I'd have with you or anyone, in private or in public. Unfortunately it rocked the boat with a certain product, and my continued involvement on the thread was terminated by me. Strangely Dave managed to get away with way more corruscating criticism of a product using hugely more personal and unreasonable terms, way beyond anything I'd attempt. Maybe because he considered himself above the moderators.
Fascinatingly if any of us attempted real time moderation on the fly, ie argued back, we were also rebuffed in no uncertain terms.
Look, we're all big boys here, but plenty of us have had bans and we're still here. But not all.

Sorry ddk is David and Dave. Not too sure whether he is liked to be called Dave.

 

[PeterA]

I personally think that one helpful self-test is: if you wouldn’t say it to the recipient in person, then don’t write it to the recipient online.

Is this your personal standard and different from the WBF official’s standard? It seems that sanctions are delivered to the recipient online and not in person.

David did not cancel himself as a few people have claimed. He left his contact information in his signature for our edification and benefit for future contact with him off-line. Someone, or a panel or a committee decided to go in and edit his signature and delete it without his permission and without notification, either written or spoken. David was canceled not by his own volition, but by others without notification, without a respectful telephone call, just the power of the edit function by those in charge, done in secret.

David is now locked out. No contact, no explanation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Is this your personal standard and different from the WBF official’s standard?

Please excerpt for me where I said anything about a “standard.”

I wrote: “I personally think that one helpful self-test . . .”

This is a self-test I personally try to employ.

 

[morricab]

What temper tantrum? People are leaving quietly. David is not the first, and he will not be the last. People make choices based on conditions and what is being offered.

People come and go, dip in and out and take what they want/need from the forum...it's a place for discussion on audio...not a family.

David got his feelings hurt, took his toys and went home. So what? I see over and over that we are losing so much of his expertise. Did we? Most of his contributions are still here to be read by all...most of what he says in various threads is just that same ethos over and over.

He actually didn't have a lot more new to add and was becoming more and more snarky to those who didn't follow his exact path to audio Nirvana. As a result, David also bruised a lot of people on this forum and sneered at many of their choices. One should be respectful if they want respect. David might have been right about a lot of things, and in fact I agree with most of his ideas on audio, but he was disrespectful to those who didn't share that vision of audio.

I know you had a transformative experience after visiting David's and I am happy for you to find what you were looking for but give it a rest! He was not a god or even a guru...just a man with good a good audio sense and more than a bit of salesmanship. In the end, he was still monetizing his expertise.

Will you go next? Would be a pity but looks like Tango followed his guru out the door.

The one I really miss from this forum is Audiophile Bill, who was very knowledgeable, especially DIY, and was also very respectful to everyone and displayed his knowledge without arrogance.

I personally think the limits of free speech are pretty wide on this forum as long as you avoid personal attacks beyond a certain limit and avoid politics and religion...not so hard to do...even for me.

 

[Ron Resnick]

He left his contact information in his signature for pier edification for future contact with him off-line. Someone, or a panel or a committee decided to go in and edit his signature and delete it without his permission and without notification, either written or spoken.

I know nothing about this. I am not aware of this. I have not been involved in any discussions about this. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Audiophile Bill has become one of my close friends in audio from around the world
I just reach out outside wbf to those I want contact with
and some even reach out to me.....

 

[Ron Resnick]

David I s now locked out.

I know nothing about this. I am not aware of this. I have not been involved in any discussions about this.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is this your personal standard and different from the WBF official’s standard? It seems that sanctions are delivered to the recipient online and not in person.

David did not cancel himself as a few people have claimed. He left his contact information in his signature for pier edification for future contact with him off-line. Someone, or a panel or a committee decided to go in and edit his signature and delete it without his permission and without notification, either written or spoken. David was canceled not by his own volition, but by others without notification, without a respectful telephone call, just the power of the edit function by those in charge, done in secret.

David I s now locked out.

leaving a forwarding message in the signature of a departed member is not reasonable forum activity (agree the message itself was not controversial). especially from a member who refused moderation authority. your indignation, while understandable based on your relationship, is unreasonable.

just my 2 cents as a forum member. if i leave in a huff i would not expect the forum to support my exit strategy. i'm gone and separate.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Audiophile Bill has become one of my close friends in audio from around the world

I adore Bill. I continue to feel terrible that he was so upset, I believe, by my one social media “like” of one particular post by Jonathan Weiss.

I also feel that leaving the forum was an unnecessary overreaction by Bill to a mere social media “like” by me of a post by a member with whom Bill was in a kerfuffle. I greatly would have preferred that Bill expressed to me that he was upset, and I think we could’ve understood each other‘s views and talked it out and gotten past it.

I emailed Bill and and left telephone voicemail messages for Bill numerous times over many weeks. Bill replied cordially to one email, and agreed in that email to talk on the telephone, but he never called me, and he never responded to my subsequent voicemail messages.

The foregoing are the facts as I understand them.

I still wish Bill would return to WBF.

 

[PeterA]

I know nothing about this. I am not aware of this. I have not been involved in any discussions about this. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Exactly.

 

[chet atkins]

Ripple (Grateful Dead) feat. Bill Kreutzmann | Playing For Change | Song Around The World - YouTube

 

[Ron Resnick]

David did not cancel himself as a few people have claimed.

David was canceled not by his own volition, . . .

These are, to me, inexplicable characterizations of the facts.

David could be here right now if he chose to be. Not only could David be here right now if he chose to be, but if he had taken my suggestion nobody (but you and the moderators) even would have known that he had been suspended.

Rather than accept the brief castigation by a unanimous panel of three people, one of whom David believes was out to get him for political reasons totally unrelated to WBF, and return to WBF, David chose to pull the pin out of the grenade, and here we are.

I vehemently disagree with the characterization that David was canceled.

 

[PeterA]

leaving a forwarding message in the signature of a departed member is not reasonable forum activity (agree the message itself was not controversial). especially from a member who refused moderation authority. your indignation, while understandable based on your relationship, is unreasonable.

just my 2 cents as a forum member. if i leave in a huff i would not expect the forum to support my exit strategy. i'm gone and separate.

Mike, we all have different views about what is reasonable. The decision here seems to be to prohibit contact via the forum as punishment while retaining all of the great content left behind. Is that reasonable? I was simply clarifying the fact that he did not cancel himself as was claimed earlier. He was cancelled by others.

This thread is good for discussing the issues in the open. We each as members can share our opinions and make suggestions. Some choose to tell others to "give it a rest", and to denigrate past members. We are not above snarky behavior here. Openness is a good tonic. I learn things from your posts, Mike. I am now indignant and unreasonable. I apologize for that. You once told me to "own it." Well, I am becoming less bashful about sharing my views on certain things, within the rules, of course.