DAC comparison and recommendation request

[Zuman]

It's interesting that the OP found the Okto dac8 Stereo to be characterized by " 'wall of sound' and very in-your-face without soundstage nuance, seemed accurate and detailed with huge bottom end but was harsh/unforgiving on top." The list of auditioned DACs is amazing and I've certainly never heard most of them, but I find the Okto to be very different in concert with my admittedly new Modwright KWH 225i.
Compared with the mid-level DACs I own (the Chord Qutest, the miniDSP SHD and the NAD M32's internal DAC), I find the Okto's soundstage to extend beyond the speakers laterally when appropriate, while - for example - constraining a solo piano or small jazz combo to where they should be. Perhaps most impressively for me, I've experienced surprising front/back soundstage depth. I also haven't experienced top-end glare or harshness, although I recognize that speakers, cables, and room play important roles here.
I don't claim that the Okto dac8 Stereo is superior to the extraordinary DACs on the OP's list, but I'm very pleased with it in my system thus far.

 

[ctsooner]

I had a similar list last year. I bought the Brinkmann Nyquist mk2 as it was by far the most analog in my system. The Waversa EXT Ref takes it to a level that I didn’t think I’d get to. I also like the PBD and of course can’t go wrong with MSB. If I could have afforded the MSB middle dac with power see, I’d have gone that route. That volume control in the MSB would have let me play with no preamp needed. I’m not a DCS fan as it’s just too analytical in my system.

 

[Treehaus Audiolab]

I am a bit of a sucker for NOS DACs... I am running a Concert Fidelity which is quite smooth and not fatiguing, but it is a perhaps a bit "polite" on the bottom end. It does, however, respond well to tube rolling. I tend to think a top-level Abbas might be a good choice. How it compares to the more accessible (logistics, not price) Lampi stuff.. that I am unsure.

That all said, as some other posters have stated, I might reexamine the amplification and speakers a bit more. DACs are certainly important but most of what you hear is the speakers and the room (which, now that I say that, might be worth examining a bit)

 

[ctsooner]

It all starts with the speakers. Rooms can. E tamed or livened up with basic room treatments of quilts and record cases etc. For me: Speakers, sources (isolator/filter, clock etc must be in this equation), preamp, amp, shortest speaker cables you can use, cords, interconnects, stands stuff

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I've been on a DAC journey and thought I would share some impressions of all the DACs I've had in my house. After learning more about what I'm looking for, I'd love some recommendations on what to try next.

Current setup: Innuos Zen Mini MK3 + LPSU -> Classe Delta PRE -> Pathos Kratos (as a power amplifier) -> Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Grand Reference

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc.

Here are brief impressions of what I've owned/tried in my setup:

okto DAC8 Stereo: 'wall of sound' and very in-your-face without soundstage nuance, seemed accurate and detailed with huge bottom end but was harsh/unforgiving on top

Classe Delta PRE: very non-fatiguing and easily listenable with plenty of warm bass presence, would love something with bigger soundstage and some more detail

Chord DAVE: interesting handling of bass textures that I've never heard before or since, overall was detailed but dry and not easy to listen to

Mola Mola Tambaqui: big soundstage expansion and overall sounded nice with fast transients but was left fatigued after my sessions (I think I might be sensitive to upsampling for some reason)

Holo May KTE: nice overall balanced sound and really huge soundstage, unfortunately several recordings were spiky and sibilant compared to the Classe and others so this was a no go

T+A DAC 200: the closest I've been to a satisfied upgrade to the Classe, more detailed for sure with certain effects and vocals really standing out in a good way, unfortunately left me slightly fatigued though

Meitner MA3: this is the smoothest DAC I've heard and it was overall very pleasing and non-fatiguing, unfortunately I felt the best sound came from network vs. USB and mConnect was an absolute nightmare

dCS Rossini APEX: what a huge love/hate disappointment for me, loved the big soundstage, extra details, quick response and decay, hated the thin/lean sound lacking bass and left me super fatigued (upsampling?)

So there it is in a nutshell. If I'm looking for good bottom end presence, large soundstage with more detail but a non-fatiguing high end for ~$20-30k what do you think I should be looking at? Aqua? Lampi? MSB? Mojo?

Thanks in advance

**EDIT**: Tons of great help here! Here are the recommendations I've received so far:

Most recommended:
Lampizat0r Pacific (7x)
Aries Cerat Helene (4x)
Aries Cerat Kassandra II Reference (3x)
MSB Premier (3x)
Playback Designs MPD-8 (2x)
Cardas Reflection / Golden Cross (2x)

Recommended:
Abbas (model not specified)
Accuphase DC-37
APL DSD-MR MK2
Aqua Acoustic Formula xHD
Ayon S5
Ayon Kronos Signature
EMM Labs DA2 / DV2
Esoteric (model not specified)
Lessloss Echo's End Reference
Lumin X1
Metronome | c|AQWO
Nagra (model not specified)
Ideon Audio EOS
SMSL D3
TotalDac (model not specified)
Vermeer Model Two
Weiss DAC 501

Others:
USB 'decrapifiers' (e.g. Innous Phoenix)
Get different speakers
Transparent Audio G5 Opus and XL power cords
Sablon Audio AES/EBU
Use EQ
Cerious Technolgies Lumniscate cables
Sonore Signature Rendu

Hi,
Just wanted to mention the Aqua LaScala DAC. I’ve been using it for almost two years now and it’s one of the pieces of gear that I just never tire of. I am using a Taiko Extreme Server as my primary digital source with a Cardas Clear USB cable. I also run my Esoteric P-03 transport with a Cardas Clear AES/EBU cable and have a Lumin U1 Mini for streaming with a Cardas Clear S/PIDF cable, all running through the Aqua. It allows for balanced and unbalanced outputs. You might be interested in this since the balanced outs are a bit less bright without losing the really exceptional sound stage.
It’s a terrific value and I never experience a moment of fatigue.

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

Speaker cables , interconnects, and digital cables all affect sound signature of one's system. I would try a full loom of Cardas Reflection cables , or legacy Cardas Golden Cross in true bi wire set up for speakers and Golden Cross interconnects. Both models are smooth, yet detailed and immensely musical.

The Cardas Clear Reflection interconnects definitely have that “warm” Cardas sound without losing the shape of the sound stage. I have been using the Clear Reflection balanced interconnects with the Aqua LaScala and got great results. I’m currently using the unbalanced outputs of the LaScala with just an old set of Cardas Quad Link cables to test and the difference seems to be that the balanced outputs have a richer midrange and low midrange than the unbalanced. That said, the unbalanced outputs provide a much more open high end without losing the mids. It’s really a matter of taste.
I know the Quad Links are a bit dated but I believe that better cables would only accent the positive.
I’m also using Clear Reflection power throughout my digital gear and that’s been a nice mix.

 

[Cellcbern]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I've been on a DAC journey and thought I would share some impressions of all the DACs I've had in my house. After learning more about what I'm looking for, I'd love some recommendations on what to try next.

Current setup: Innuos Zen Mini MK3 + LPSU -> Classe Delta PRE -> Pathos Kratos (as a power amplifier) -> Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Grand Reference

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc.

Here are brief impressions of what I've owned/tried in my setup:

okto DAC8 Stereo: 'wall of sound' and very in-your-face without soundstage nuance, seemed accurate and detailed with huge bottom end but was harsh/unforgiving on top

Classe Delta PRE: very non-fatiguing and easily listenable with plenty of warm bass presence, would love something with bigger soundstage and some more detail

Chord DAVE: interesting handling of bass textures that I've never heard before or since, overall was detailed but dry and not easy to listen to

Mola Mola Tambaqui: big soundstage expansion and overall sounded nice with fast transients but was left fatigued after my sessions (I think I might be sensitive to upsampling for some reason)

Holo May KTE: nice overall balanced sound and really huge soundstage, unfortunately several recordings were spiky and sibilant compared to the Classe and others so this was a no go

T+A DAC 200: the closest I've been to a satisfied upgrade to the Classe, more detailed for sure with certain effects and vocals really standing out in a good way, unfortunately left me slightly fatigued though

Meitner MA3: this is the smoothest DAC I've heard and it was overall very pleasing and non-fatiguing, unfortunately I felt the best sound came from network vs. USB and mConnect was an absolute nightmare

dCS Rossini APEX: what a huge love/hate disappointment for me, loved the big soundstage, extra details, quick response and decay, hated the thin/lean sound lacking bass and left me super fatigued (upsampling?)

So there it is in a nutshell. If I'm looking for good bottom end presence, large soundstage with more detail but a non-fatiguing high end for ~$20-30k what do you think I should be looking at? Aqua? Lampi? MSB? Mojo?

Thanks in advance

**EDIT**: Tons of great help here! Here are the recommendations I've received so far:

Most recommended:
Lampizat0r Pacific (7x)
Aries Cerat Helene (4x)
Aries Cerat Kassandra II Reference (3x)
MSB Premier (3x)
Playback Designs MPD-8 (2x)
Cardas Reflection / Golden Cross (2x)

Recommended:
Abbas (model not specified)
Accuphase DC-37
APL DSD-MR MK2
Aqua Acoustic Formula xHD
Ayon S5
Ayon Kronos Signature
EMM Labs DA2 / DV2
Esoteric (model not specified)
Lessloss Echo's End Reference
Lumin X1
Metronome | c|AQWO
Nagra (model not specified)
Ideon Audio EOS
SMSL D3
TotalDac (model not specified)
Vermeer Model Two
Weiss DAC 501

Others:
USB 'decrapifiers' (e.g. Innous Phoenix)
Get different speakers
Transparent Audio G5 Opus and XL power cords
Sablon Audio AES/EBU
Use EQ
Cerious Technolgies Lumniscate cables
Sonore Signature Rendu

FYI: This is what I plan to get: Audio-GD R7 HE MK 3 - R2R, built in power regeneration, I2S via HDMI input, "transmits audio signals in the current rather than voltage domain"......etc. Link to review:

Gramophone Dreams #66: Audio-GD R7HE MK2 D/A processor

Whenever I install a new, in-for-review DAC, after some amount of spaced-out not-listening listening I find myself just sitting there, being happy I got the damn thing working. Once I recover from the stress of installation, my brain begins, without prompting, to examine the character of sound...

www.stereophile.com

Excerpt:

".....I'm telling about the Mola Mola and May DACs because Audio-GD's R7HE MK2 presents music in a manner that I think combines the solid, understated intensity of the May with the uberclear dynamism of the Tambaqui. The result is digital playback that materializes what's buried in the bits in a manner I find intoxicating....".

Note that there is now a MK. III version.

 

[msimanyi]

Note that there is now a MK. III version.

Per their website:

The different between R-7HE MK2 and R-7HE MK3:
Their different is the chassis and display , others just same.

 

[Cellcbern]

FYI: This is what I plan to get: Audio-GD R7 HE MK 3 - R2R, built in power regeneration, I2S via HDMI input, "transmits audio signals in the current rather than voltage domain"......etc. Link to review:

Gramophone Dreams #66: Audio-GD R7HE MK2 D/A processor

Whenever I install a new, in-for-review DAC, after some amount of spaced-out not-listening listening I find myself just sitting there, being happy I got the damn thing working. Once I recover from the stress of installation, my brain begins, without prompting, to examine the character of sound...

www.stereophile.com

Excerpt:

".....I'm telling about the Mola Mola and May DACs because Audio-GD's R7HE MK2 presents music in a manner that I think combines the solid, understated intensity of the May with the uberclear dynamism of the Tambaqui. The result is digital playback that materializes what's buried in the bits in a manner I find intoxicating....".

Note that there is now a MK. III version.

FYIhttps://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/audio-gd

Having a US-based importer/distributor/dealer should improve customer service.

Lots of innovative design going on at this relatively unknown (in the USA) company resulting in top tier performance at relatively low prices, e.g.,:

AUDIO-gd HE-1 STEREO PREAMPLIFIER REVIEW - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The Audio-gd HE-1 preamplifier is one of the three best preamplifiers I’ve ever heard. It creates an acoustic space like no other component. Despite the spatial goodness, the HE-1 avoids coloring the sound. Not to be missed! Highlights This is a highly unusual preamplifier. The Audio-gd HE-1 can...

hometheaterhifi.com

Audio-GD R2R-1 FPGA PCM / DSD DAC Review Done right. Review By Gary Alan Barker Of Headphone.Guru

Audio-GD R2R-1 FPGA PCM / DSD DAC Review Done right. Review By Gary Alan Barker Of Headphone.Guru

www.enjoythemusic.com

Audio GD Master 2H Mono Power Amplifiers

The Master 2H mono amplifiers amplify the whole truth and nothing but the truth but they combine their truthfulness with a very high level of refinement, fluidity and finesse to make for a performance that is not only spectacularly neutral but also highly natural, rhythmically infectious and...

www.hifi-advice.com

Audio-gd AMP NFB-1 Preamplifier And Headphone Amplifier Review A top-notch headamp that works well with all types of headphones and music. Review By Gary Alan Barker Of Headphone.Guru

Audio-gd AMP NFB-1 Preamplifier And Headphone Amplifier Review A top-notch headamp that works well with all types of headphones and music. Review By Gary Alan Barker Of Headphone.Guru

www.enjoythemusic.com

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

The Cardas Clear Reflection interconnects definitely have that “warm” Cardas sound without losing the shape of the sound stage. I have been using the Clear Reflection balanced interconnects with the Aqua LaScala and got great results. I’m currently using the unbalanced outputs of the LaScala with just an old set of Cardas Quad Link cables to test and the difference seems to be that the balanced outputs have a richer midrange and low midrange than the unbalanced. That said, the unbalanced outputs provide a much more open high end without losing the mids. It’s really a matter of taste.
I know the Quad Links are a bit dated but I believe that better cables would only accent the positive.
I’m also using Clear Reflection power throughout my digital gear and that’s been a nice mix.

Update: I’m relistening to the Aqua with the balanced Clear Reflections since I’ve tweeked the isolation by adding the Stein Music Super Natural Matrix feet to raise the Aqua off of its stock rubber feet. I really think you need to give the LaScala a listen.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

The Cardas Clear Reflection interconnects definitely have that “warm” Cardas sound without losing the shape of the sound stage. I have been using the Clear Reflection balanced interconnects with the Aqua LaScala and got great results. I’m currently using the unbalanced outputs of the LaScala with just an old set of Cardas Quad Link cables to test and the difference seems to be that the balanced outputs have a richer midrange and low midrange than the unbalanced. That said, the unbalanced outputs provide a much more open high end without losing the mids. It’s really a matter of taste.
I know the Quad Links are a bit dated but I believe that better cables would only accent the positive.
I’m also using Clear Reflection power throughout my digital gear and that’s been a nice mix.

Are you using Cardas Clear Beyond cables for your speakers as well? Or have you had a chance to test those Clear Beyond in your own system by any chance?

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

Are you using Cardas Clear Beyond cables for your speakers as well?

I am not. I am using Tellurium Q Ultra Black speaker cables. I’ve been looking to upgrade and the Cardas CB cables are a great value. I don’t think you can get better cables, overall, for that price. I did get the current cable inventory earlier in the system’s evolution but they still do well. I’m listening to the Aqua right now with the Clear Reflection balanced cables. Jim Hall - Concerto. the Original Master Recording CD. I might upgrade to the Clear Beyond balanced but it’s all really fitting well together right now.

 

[heihei]

Another vote for Lampi here - I've gone from Golden Gate 2 -> Pacific -> Horizon. Before I got my Golden Gate I compared directly to a full dCS Vivaldi stack and preferred the Lampi because it was the antithesis of dCS lean / dry / overly-detailed sound.

 

[Digital Buddha]

Here is my short list of Dacs im really interested in trying next

Berkeley Alpha Reference Series 3
Weiss Helos
Ideon EOS
EMM Labs - DA2 V2
Playback designs mpd-8 dream dac
Esotaric N01XD

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

The N01XD is stunning and a great value.
Still in love with my LaScala.

 

[rgmd11]

The N01XD is stunning and a great value.
Still in love with my LaScala.

Totally empathize with your comments and observations about the Aqua LaScala, imho it's a hidden gem, and if you put some good tubes in along with good isolating feet, you really cannot go wrong, everything becomes elevated and scales to a higher level , very liquid and natural organic sound, dynamic, tonality (easily the best I have heard without spending a great deal more), detail retrieval and all in equal measure, and an absolute bargain to boot, I can listen for 3 or 4 hours and longer with no fatigue at all which has always been a problem in the pass with other DAC's including T+A and Accuphase, other Dac's though that I have heard and liked were from Playback Designs with the MPD-8 along with the APL DSD-MR SE, but they are substantially more expensive...and not extensive listening neither

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

Totally empathize with your comments and observations about the Aqua LaScala, imho it's a hidden gem, put some good tubes in and you cannot go wrong, and an absolute bargain to boot, I can listen for 3 or 4 hours and longer with no fatigue at all which has always been a problem in the pass with other DAC's including T+A and Accuphase, other Dac's that I have heard and liked were from Playback Designs with the MPD-8 along with the APL DSD-MR SE, but they are substantially more expensive...

I have been using the stock tubes. Aside from Telefunken, do you have any recommendations?

 

[lordcloud]

Here is my short list of Dacs im really interested in trying next

Berkeley Alpha Reference Series 3
Weiss Helos
Ideon EOS
EMM Labs - DA2 V2
Playback designs mpd-8 dream dac
Esotaric N01XD

I had the little brother to the N01XD for a while. The N05XD.

I didn't expect to like it as much as I did. It was detailed, had depth and dimensionality, with very good depth of tone. I didn't find and real fault with it. Besides the weird top.

If it weren't for my tube diversion with the Lampizator Pacific 2, I would have upgraded to the N01XD. Which, if I go back to solid state dacs, is what I'll get.

Henri

 

[rgmd11]

I have been using the stock tubes. Aside from Telefunken, do you have any recommendations?

Hello Backo NYC/SF

I am using a pair of original 1960's M8162 CV4024 Gold Pins NOS from the Mullard factory in Mitcham London, I would for sure like to one day try the Telefunken 801's that I think you mentioned on another post.....

 

[Thieliste]

Vitus DACs are worth considering just as Totaldac.