Changing variables in a review

Al M.

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No, imo. It's not a question of 'an even better evaluation'. If you change a product from stock you are, imo, no longer reviewing what the consumer can purchase. And it is unfair to the manufacturer. There very few manufacturers who say their product is better if you modify it with something they do not offer. Manufacturers expect a review of their product, not their product with someone else's add-on.

For my old 15 W/ch parallel push/pull triode mono blocks I once bought external power supplies with tube rectification from BorderPatrol that were excellent, bringing the performance to a new level. Yet when they came without any power cords, I asked Gary Dews, the designer, for the reason why. His reply was that audiophiles put on their own power cords on it anyway, so sending power cords with the product was pointless.

In a similar manner it is hard to imagine that the power cord that comes with other products is considered by the respective manufacturer as the last word for the product, but rather nothing but a necessary throw-in -- he doesn't want to make the product unusable if you don''t have another one of your favorite power cords lying around. But the inclusion of the stock power cord does not necessarily mean that it is the manufacturer's preferred one, or that he does not expect you to change it anyway.

So the argument is questionable that changing from stock cord for a review is "unfair to the manufacturer", or as you said in an earlier post: "If you do not use the manufacturer's power cord you are not reviewing his product".

***

If you think logically to the end, under the premise that you must not use anything but the stock power cord for a review you also couldn't use a power conditioner, because that alters power delivery as well. And what about the dedicated 10 AWG power line in the wall? That's also an audiophile enhancement, no? Or do you have to exchange the audiophile power outlet from the wall for a standard one from Home Depot as well? I think the argument quickly leads itself ad absurdum.
 
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DasguteOhr

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It would also be strange if you use other power cords, did imply that the manufacturer has not done his job well and only works really well with accessories.
if i were a manufacturer, no device would be available to you after this
 
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microstrip

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I've been on the earth for quite a while and although I've used that word plenty in dialog, I honestly don't recall ever seeing it in print!! Love it!! (...)

Fortunately in real high-end world we are rarely faced with such type of rigid comparative review.

Typically a reviewer, such as Michael Fremer, get as a new amplifier, optimizes the system with different cables and carries the review. In the end he adds a few generic comparative comments with the sound of his system, using his usual components or other equipment he recently reviewed.

IMHO it all depends on the objective of the review - transmit to the reader an idea of the capabilities of the new component, using another equipment just as a reference to highlight the characteristics, also attracting the attention of the reader to evaluate it, or just create a consumer report type comparative ranking list of best buy type?

As far as I read it seems many of us have different objectives when reading reviews. My main ones are entertainment and information, not ranking or value.
 
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morricab

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This topic came up in Marty’s amplifier thread. Member cableman questioned Roy Gregory’s review methods. Mr. Gregory stated that he will change speaker positioning within the room to better optimize the sound of various amplifiers being reviewed. My question is: does changing more than one variable at a time change your opinion about the value of the review of the component being compared?

What would you think of a turntable review if the reviewer changed the tonearm and cartridge to optimize the sound of the turntable in a given system context?

This is my response to Ron Resnick in the thread which I deleted because it is off-topic to Marty’s thread.



Ron, the reader is free to believe whatever he wants from a review. Personally, I don’t want to see the reviewer change more than one variable at a time before describing the effect on the sound. The exception I can think of is replacing an entire chain of electronics from one brand to another brand.

I did not know that this was a consistent process for Roy Gregory. I appreciate that cableman pointing it out. Knowing this about Mr. Gregory‘s amplifier reviews has changed my opinion about the validity of the reviews.

Marty did not do that when he made the comparison. I did not do it when I compared two different electronic chains in my system. Knowing the review process is helpful because it helps us place value on the results of the review.
I think it is only ok if:

All pieces under review get tested in all speaker positions and then a composite of what is heard is assessed along with peak performance in the “optimal “ position. It is not clear to me how amps could impact optimal speaker setup beyond bass response, which could be admittedly profound on the overall perception. The bass of an amp could be much stronger and in some positions then overload the room forcing a repositioning.

For something like a TT, you would again need to keep all combos tried consistent for all TTs...if possible.

This injects something of a bit of scientific method into a review but entails significantly more effort...perhaps not worth it.

Digital requires the best control of jitter and power one can muster or a review might only test a product’s sensitivity to jitter and/or noise/distortion on the power line.

I liked reviewing preamps because it was pretty straightforward to make a consistent test Protocol and I level matched to 0.5db.
 
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morricab

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Of course you can. It's not the way I would approach an experiment from a scientific perspective, but nobody says you can't do it. Knock yourself out! Do whatever you think will get you to the promised land. As far as believing that an amplifier will change the acoustic properties of room resonance is concerned (and hence, speaker placement), I'll just have to respectfully disagree. Tell that to acousticians and watch them laugh at you.
Different amps most certainly have different bass response when th a given a given speaker and this increase or decrease can indeed alter the room interaction and thus overall perception...tell that to acousticians and watch the laugh dry up..
 
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morricab

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What i do wanna add is that in a way its a pitty that the new bigger wilson speakers are hard to drive .
For example M fremer and Roy gregory , marc mickaelson are basically stuck with a 1.6 ohm minimum speaker , which limits amp ( reviewing possibility ) choice considerably .

So then another variable you could add to the mix and that is :

Does a XVX / CH system sound better then a X2 / LAMM one???
I dont know you tell me
Yes, the old X1 (I guess X2 as well?) was very easy to drive...a LAMM ML2 could do it justice...
 

andromedaaudio

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Yes, the old X1 (I guess X2 as well?) was very easy to drive...a LAMM ML2 could do it justice...
Or let say steve s X2 with ML 3 .
Could it outperform the XVX combined with some sterile SS amp .
I m sure it could ;).

How can reviewers with XVX Loudspeakers provide a good guidance regarding top amplifiers on the market .
There are limited from the get go because of power requirements
 
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Lee

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Part of this is driven by the reputation of the reviewer. We hear from our readers that they do trust reviewers more over time and have favorites. Consistency in trying to get to the bottom line sound quality is a big part of that. Methodical approaches and processes are valuable.
 
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Steve Williams

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Or let say steve s X2 with ML 3 .
Could it outperform the XVX combined with some sterile SS amp .
I m sure it could ;).

How can reviewers with XVX Loudspeakers provide a good guidance regarding top amplifiers on the market .
There are limited from the get go
I've given up on all of these experiments that you guys are talking about. Personally I always only change one parameter at a time to get a full understanding of what I am hearing. I love the sound of my speakers with my Lamm gear. My speakers must now be 15 years old and members here have joked with me that it's time to change these albatrosses. The reality is that I am sure there are far better sounds than mine but at the end of the day when all is said and done, I love the sound of mine exactly where they are and I always go to sleep with a smile on my face.My Horizon arrives in a few weeks and after that I have only one more change to be done to my system but TBH this is the system that will carry me into the sunset. There is a certain satisfaction (at least to me) that one gets when they are at peace with their system and they lose that ever present urge to change or upgrade that all audiophiles have. I guess I have fallen off that bandwagon as my system now must be considered "vintage" due to the age of the components. As to the synergy between my speakers and amps I couldn't Abe happier. There is a magic with there X2 and Lamm that does not exist IMHO with other Wilson speakers. In fact IIRC Vladimir Lamm has been quoted as saying that he never heard a Wilson speaker sound good to him until his electronics were used. Vlad always used to demo his gear with Wilson.
 

sbnx

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Or let say steve s X2 with ML 3 .
Could it outperform the XVX combined with some sterile SS amp .
I m sure it could ;).

How can reviewers with XVX Loudspeakers provide a good guidance regarding top amplifiers on the market .
There are limited from the get go because of power requirements
All they can say is that it sounds great on the XVX and if it can drive that speaker it can drive anything.
 
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andromedaaudio

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All they can say is that it sounds great on the XVX and if it can drive that speaker it can drive anything.


Exactly , but with that logic you miss out on a whole bunch of interesting amp designs whether them being lower powered tubes or SS
I also strongly believe things as speaker / amp synergy exists like steve says .
Speakers are a bunch of compromises that need to work together, and with some models in a manufacturers line up the blend in is simply more succesfull then in others .
Some of the faults you cannot find in specs you can only detect them by ear
 

DasguteOhr

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Or let say steve s X2 with ML 3 .
Could it outperform the XVX combined with some sterile SS amp .
I m sure it could ;).

How can reviewers with XVX Loudspeakers provide a good guidance regarding top amplifiers on the market .
There are limited from the get go because of power requirements
you can recognize good amplifiers by the fact that the power supply does not break down with smaller loads. then 1.6 ohms are no problem either. example gryphon s 100 it always doubles the power with smaller resistances. she drives such a loudspeaker as easily as the snap of a finger

Look at this specs
 

andromedaaudio

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Looks impressive

But take tube amplifiers for example .
Atmasphere stated (and i hear it also ) tube amps in particular have higher distortion the tougher the load gets .
How can one say something definitive about the performance of a low to medium power tube amp with a speaker with a 1.6 ohm imp. dip.
Or take martys expirience , may be on the X2 s the CH sound would have been top notch , just saying
 
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DasguteOhr

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Looks impressive

But take tube amplifiers for example .
Atmasphere stated (and i hear it also ) tube amps in particular have higher distortion the tougher the load gets .
How can one say something definitive about the performance of a low to medium power tube amp with a speaker with a 1.6 ohm imp. dip.
Or take martys expirience , may be on the X2 s the CH sound would have been top notch , just saying
the most important part of normal tube amplifiers is the output transformer, which determines the bandwidth, the lower the cut-off frequency, the better the bass reproduction. Exsample for 2A3 tubes massive big transformer 5hz-75khz 2A3se5K5_1.jpg
you have fewer problems with heavy loads because the core does not get saturated so quickly. less distortion
 
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Robh3606

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Changing a speakers position in the room alters the response of the speaker. Why a reviewer would do that reviewing different amplifiers makes no sense to me.

Rob :)
 
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andromedaaudio

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Another example of " variables "

1O years ago i heard the Magico V3 combined with a all zanden set up
Zanden 9500 /3000 .
Couple years later i heard Magico Q7 with zanden 9600/3000
Last year i heard Q5 with 90 K TAD monos.

I ll take the V3 / Zanden combo over any of them because of drivebility/ synergy
 
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Cableman

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Changing a speakers position in the room alters the response of the speaker. Why a reviewer would do that reviewing different amplifiers makes no sense to me.

Rob :)
Correct. It’s crazy. And any who’ve bent over backwards to support the frighteningly weak justification from u know who,really need chased.
 

stehno

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This topic came up in Marty’s amplifier thread. Member cableman questioned Roy Gregory’s review methods. Mr. Gregory stated that he will change speaker positioning within the room to better optimize the sound of various amplifiers being reviewed.
Interesting topic, Peter. Presumably, readers read reviews for varying purposes or combinations thereof.

Hadn't really thought about it but since a component's design including constructions, materials, etc are all over the map to varying degrees, I suppose it makes sense if a component were able to allow more or less bass to remain audible at the speaker, then repositioning the speaker to compensate for that altered bass output could also make sense. This could also apply to the mids and highs too. Though not sure doing so in the middle of auditioning a component is the best time as things could go south as well as north and the reviewer's potential listening references could be lost or compromised.

My question is: does changing more than one variable at a time change your opinion about the value of the review of the component being compared?
Another interesting topic, Peter. I'd venture yes and no. Anything the reviewer does to the component will not be the exact same what potential buyers might do. Hence, I would think the first half of auditioning time should be with the component right out of the box as the designer designed it. After all, we're really buying the designer's philosophies consolidated into their end product.

At this juncture, the reviewer hopefully knows his own system well enough and he simply replaces a single component with another. This would seem the best hope for a reasonable perhaps best attempt at an objective review. But what if the reviewer was reviewing and/or purchased Center Stage footers positioned under the old component? Should the reviewer also use the same footers under the new component right from the start? My knee-jerk response would be yes, the new component should have the same opportunity to perform as the old component.

But what if when the reviewer installed the footers on the old component when all the planets were in alignment and just happened to obtain the best mechanical mating possible between the old component, the footers, and associated platform? And when he installed the new component under review none of the planets were in alignment and he unknowingly did a horrible job of mating the component with the footers, platform, etc? Or vice versa? IME, something as simple as this could drastically alter a component's performance potential and the reviewer may not even realize the performance difference is a direct result of his knowledge or lack thereof but he still writes the results. What if the mod is a power cable and power cable is actually a POS but the reviewer doesn't know it? What about racking systems? Same thing there too. As many would attest, some products simply aren't worth owning, yet somebody's buying / auditioning those products and reviewers are no exception.

For reasons like that I would think it best if all components and speakers of the reviewer's reference system were configured to play right out of the box without tweaks or mods of any sort. But even then everything has to be placed/installed on some type of platform. The problem with this scenario is the playback system probably wouldn't be worth listening to, much less auditioning products with.

But for accuracy sake, I would still think the first half a reviewer's audition time with a product should be as straight out of the box as possible and then do their initial write up under those conditions. Then perhaps the back half of audition time would be a bit of Crowleyism i.e. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." and do the back half of the review on that. Because every component has its actual as well as potential performance and in the end, hopefully not many care about a component's base performance but rather its optimal performance potential. Then again, we're assuming that the reviewer knows what he's doing and that can be quite a gamble itself.

Even excluding all the potential variables a designer used during their component's R&D and testing, I'm guessing all these reviewer-only variables are just the tip of the iceberg and this a primary reason I don't give much credence to most reviews or reviewers as there are just too many unkowns and without really knowing the reviewer, isn't it all just a potential box of chocolates? Even if one thinks they know the reviewer well? I think these are good examples why it's at least as important that we try to read between the lines of a review as well as reading the review on its face.

What would you think of a turntable review if the reviewer changed the tonearm and cartridge to optimize the sound of the turntable in a given system context?
Another interesting point. Nobody should presume any designer knows everything there is know about their designs. Some could even have a tin ear and they too must work within their own budgets and price points. Maybe it's a fabulous TT but if it came with a tonearm and cartridge, maybe the designer came up short in their choices there and the reviewer greatly improved things? Or maybe the reviewer made the tt much less a performer than intended? It can always go either way, right?

This is my response to Ron Resnick in the thread which I deleted because it is off-topic to Marty’s thread.



Ron, the reader is free to believe whatever he wants from a review. Personally, I don’t want to see the reviewer change more than one variable at a time before describing the effect on the sound. The exception I can think of is replacing an entire chain of electronics from one brand to another brand.
I can only say it drives me a bit nuts if I happen to alter 2 variables instead of 1 and realize a performance gain and unable to discern what did what. So I always try to keep changes to a single variable whenever possible.

Personally, I think it requires way too much faith in a reviewer to rely solely on their review. I can only think of a few that I'd put such great faith in. But all good points and good questions.
 
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bazelio

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There is no should or should not... Other than disclose what you did and preferably how your tweaks differed from the baseline. Any reviewer who attempts to get the most out of a device under evaluation, whether it be via power cords, interconnects, speaker position, cartridge loading, magic feet, or the injection of audiophile air into the listening space is simply providing more information for the reader.
 

stehno

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There is no should or should not... Other than disclose what you did and preferably how your tweaks differed from the baseline. Any reviewer who attempts to get the most out of a device under evaluation, whether it be via power cords, interconnects, speaker position, cartridge loading, magic feet, or the injection of audiophile air into the listening space is simply providing more information for the reader.
Or more misinformation?
 
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