Can't reach MBL USA
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A common mistake, the store is not in Annapolis
We are actually in Annapolis Junction Maryland, just a mile off I-95 at the Route 32 exit toward Ft. Meade. North of Laurel and near Columbia Maryland.
This is a very common assumption because Annapolis is in the name.
We are actually in Annapolis Junction Maryland, just a mile off I-95 at the Route 32 exit toward Ft. Meade. North of Laurel and near Columbia Maryland.
This is a very common assumption because Annapolis is in the name.
Axpona 2012 Report
Confessions of a Part Time Audiophile
Confessions of a Part -Time Audiophile web site
Martin Logan 5.1 surround system & The UHA Phase1 tape deck.
(Yes I said "Phase 1" owned by Ray Satcher in Jacksonville Fla.
The Phase1 was our first generation deck we developed 6 years ago,
the UHA decks are now improved 8 generations with the Phase9.)
Posted 3/14/12
Five Martin Logan CLX ART loudspeakers. $12k each/$24k a pair.
Five Martin Logan Depth-i subwoofers with CLX crossover (@47Hz) to make the CLX “full range”. $2200 each (crossover board is another $150).
Two Martin Logan Descent-i subwoofers. $3500 each.
One Krell EVO-707 3D Surround processor. $31,500.
One Krell EVO-403e three-channel power amplifier. $25k.
One Krell EVO-402e stereo amplifier. $18,500.
One Krell Cipher SACD/CD player. $12k.
One fully tricked out tape deck: “Phase 1" from United Home Audio.
One full reference line cable loom from Transparent Cables. ~$250k.
In general, I think that Martin Logan is probably not my go-to for surround sound music. The lateral dispersion just wasn’t there, which meant that the sweet spots were rather few in number, and if you were out of line, you were out of luck. That said, image lock was not a problem for those in the sweet seats. I’ve never heard such precision in a sound stage. EVER. But … as with the AIX Records demo, images themselves weren’t always proportionate, especially when we went to sound in the surround. Of course, as with the AIX Records demo, I couldn’t have cared less! This was seriously cool! Pink Floyd DSOTM? Woohoo! Bring it!
But my favorite part of the demo were the stunning — and I’m not using the word lightly — stereo recordings from The Tape Project.
The one-off-master of Bill Evans may well have been the best reproduction I’ve ever heard, anywhere, of anything. It was breathtaking.
That must have been great.
Confessions of a Part Time Audiophile
Confessions of a Part -Time Audiophile web site
Martin Logan 5.1 surround system & The UHA Phase1 tape deck.
(Yes I said "Phase 1" owned by Ray Satcher in Jacksonville Fla.
The Phase1 was our first generation deck we developed 6 years ago,
the UHA decks are now improved 8 generations with the Phase9.)
Posted 3/14/12
Five Martin Logan CLX ART loudspeakers. $12k each/$24k a pair.
Five Martin Logan Depth-i subwoofers with CLX crossover (@47Hz) to make the CLX “full range”. $2200 each (crossover board is another $150).
Two Martin Logan Descent-i subwoofers. $3500 each.
One Krell EVO-707 3D Surround processor. $31,500.
One Krell EVO-403e three-channel power amplifier. $25k.
One Krell EVO-402e stereo amplifier. $18,500.
One Krell Cipher SACD/CD player. $12k.
One fully tricked out tape deck: “Phase 1" from United Home Audio.
One full reference line cable loom from Transparent Cables. ~$250k.
In general, I think that Martin Logan is probably not my go-to for surround sound music. The lateral dispersion just wasn’t there, which meant that the sweet spots were rather few in number, and if you were out of line, you were out of luck. That said, image lock was not a problem for those in the sweet seats. I’ve never heard such precision in a sound stage. EVER. But … as with the AIX Records demo, images themselves weren’t always proportionate, especially when we went to sound in the surround. Of course, as with the AIX Records demo, I couldn’t have cared less! This was seriously cool! Pink Floyd DSOTM? Woohoo! Bring it!
But my favorite part of the demo were the stunning — and I’m not using the word lightly — stereo recordings from The Tape Project.
The one-off-master of Bill Evans may well have been the best reproduction I’ve ever heard, anywhere, of anything. It was breathtaking.
That must have been great.
Actually we have to keep her away from the gear, she has some equipment that causes things to overheat.
Greg, that's a beautiful lady. But do you have any tubes with the MBL?
Hi Caesar,
Here is my experience with the MBL speakers and tubes.
MBL 126
MBL 120
MBL 116F
All three are great with tubes over say 100wpc At RMAF one year I used a 100wpc integrated tube amp with the old model 116 and it was fantastic. Low organ notes were even well represented, that was the consensus of the folks that heard the setup.
Now, when you get to the 111F and the 101mk2s that's a different story. We had the 111 speakers (that Roberta is standing next to in the picture) in the store for demo for a while. Great sounding speakers with one issue, I put four 200wpc tube mono amps on them and it was anemic sounding. We bought the MBL 9007 mono amps and BAM! It was magic bigtime, wonderful sounding speakers with the right power. Honestly I have never experimented with the 101's and tubes, I guess the experience with the 111's made me reluctant to pursue that. Besides the 101's are such a special speaker that, well why bother, with the 9008's or the 9011 amps they are just stunning.
As you would imagine I have also done some serious experimenting with analog sources on the MBL speakers, amps, and preamps. IMHO, the real trick to getting the most out of MBL speakers is to use it as Jurgen Reis designed it, powered by MBL electronics. Yes MBL makes great digital of course, but when you hear the system with a great analog front end it changes everything.
I say that if you want a tube sound with MBL use a tube phono stage, you will get the magic and yet not hinder the speakers performance. They like power and of course the MBL amps and preamps are designed to work with the speakers. Yes, you could also use a tube preamp if you want to get more tube sound. However I love the MBL 6010 (and the 5011) preamp it's a beast, plus it makes great tapes from vinyl, very dynamic.
I have used Aesthetix phono preamps with MBL for years and there seems to be a good match there.
However if you want to take the MBL Experience to the final level of musical realism a great Master Tape played on a R2R will take you there.
UHA will have what I call the MBL "sweet spot" speaker at the Capital Audiofest in July, the 116F.
We will be playing the 116F's on the MBL 9007 mono amps and may also use a pair of $5000 Jolida Fusion 200wpc mono amps. (211 tubes). Of course we will be using the UHA Phase9 R2R decks as the source and we'll have a hell of a lot of awesome Master Tape copies. If you are in the area make sure you come hear this system it is very exciting.
Here is my experience with the MBL speakers and tubes.
MBL 126
MBL 120
MBL 116F
All three are great with tubes over say 100wpc At RMAF one year I used a 100wpc integrated tube amp with the old model 116 and it was fantastic. Low organ notes were even well represented, that was the consensus of the folks that heard the setup.
Now, when you get to the 111F and the 101mk2s that's a different story. We had the 111 speakers (that Roberta is standing next to in the picture) in the store for demo for a while. Great sounding speakers with one issue, I put four 200wpc tube mono amps on them and it was anemic sounding. We bought the MBL 9007 mono amps and BAM! It was magic bigtime, wonderful sounding speakers with the right power. Honestly I have never experimented with the 101's and tubes, I guess the experience with the 111's made me reluctant to pursue that. Besides the 101's are such a special speaker that, well why bother, with the 9008's or the 9011 amps they are just stunning.
As you would imagine I have also done some serious experimenting with analog sources on the MBL speakers, amps, and preamps. IMHO, the real trick to getting the most out of MBL speakers is to use it as Jurgen Reis designed it, powered by MBL electronics. Yes MBL makes great digital of course, but when you hear the system with a great analog front end it changes everything.
I say that if you want a tube sound with MBL use a tube phono stage, you will get the magic and yet not hinder the speakers performance. They like power and of course the MBL amps and preamps are designed to work with the speakers. Yes, you could also use a tube preamp if you want to get more tube sound. However I love the MBL 6010 (and the 5011) preamp it's a beast, plus it makes great tapes from vinyl, very dynamic.
I have used Aesthetix phono preamps with MBL for years and there seems to be a good match there.
However if you want to take the MBL Experience to the final level of musical realism a great Master Tape played on a R2R will take you there.
UHA will have what I call the MBL "sweet spot" speaker at the Capital Audiofest in July, the 116F.
We will be playing the 116F's on the MBL 9007 mono amps and may also use a pair of $5000 Jolida Fusion 200wpc mono amps. (211 tubes). Of course we will be using the UHA Phase9 R2R decks as the source and we'll have a hell of a lot of awesome Master Tape copies. If you are in the area make sure you come hear this system it is very exciting.
Interesting. Don't know how much has changed between the 101a and E version, but the A sounded wonderful with the CAT or the JA-500 tube amps. Definitely not anemic. That would lead me to wonder if the dynamic issue was a result of a mismatch somewhere or something wrong with the amps you tried? I know that DEV swears by his VAC amps and the 101es.
Never tried the 101's with tubes, I have no experience with that one.
In fact I have never even heard the 101's with tubes at all. It would be interesting to hear them with tubes just to see how that works out, probably need some amps with real guts. I have had 101's for (I think) 6 years so I am quite familiar with their capabilities. Honestly Myles I think your issues with the 101's are digital related, not electronics or speakers. When I hear them at shows they sound much different than what I hear in my listening room, I can easily hear the "digital". When I play vinyl from the Aesthetix IO Eclipse with 2 power supplies and all NOS tubes you can get some really beautiful warm tube dimensionality using all MBL electronics.
The 111's were not sounding good with the 211 tube amps I used. However I have used these same amps with many other speakers including the 116F and the 126 and all was great.
Can't disagree with what you said about an analog front-end based system. And when heard the 101s with digital, it was with a tube based DAC (Altis Audio). Sounded good too. As used to say, if didn't like a SS preamp, why would you like a DAC with a SS analog stage?
Hi Greg, a warm welcome to WBF and say hi to Roberta, great smile
Yes Myles is correct, I'm loven my 101E's paired up with VAC's Statement 450 mono blocks and Sig MKa pre for me a match made in heaven.
I don't know of anyone else who has paired these speakers up with so many amps in their own home as I have.
You can check out my journey, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5895-My-VAC-journey
I noticed looking at your set-up your toe-in of the 101's are pretty aggressive.
I'm sure you have done allot of experimenting with this alone, what differences do you notice sonic wise from say having them firing straight on, gradual toe-in and what you have ended up with.
What's your floor foundation, concrete under the carpet?
Curious in relation to your room measurements;
1. back wall of speakers to to back wall of listening
2. how far out do you have you speakers, measured from centre of tweeters
3. how far out do you have you seating from the back wall
4. width distance of your room
5. how far away are your tweeters to side walls
6. height of room
7. how far apart from tweeter to tweeter are your speakers
8. how far away is your listening position
Yes Myles is correct, I'm loven my 101E's paired up with VAC's Statement 450 mono blocks and Sig MKa pre
for me a match made in heaven. I don't know of anyone else who has paired these speakers up with so many amps in their own home as I have.
You can check out my journey, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5895-My-VAC-journey
I noticed looking at your set-up your toe-in of the 101's are pretty aggressive.
I'm sure you have done allot of experimenting with this alone, what differences do you notice sonic wise from say having them firing straight on, gradual toe-in and what you have ended up with.
What's your floor foundation, concrete under the carpet?
Curious in relation to your room measurements;
1. back wall of speakers to to back wall of listening
2. how far out do you have you speakers, measured from centre of tweeters
3. how far out do you have you seating from the back wall
4. width distance of your room
5. how far away are your tweeters to side walls
6. height of room
7. how far apart from tweeter to tweeter are your speakers
8. how far away is your listening position
Hi Dev,
Interesting set up with the VAC 450 mono's, would love to hear that. I was a tube guy for many years with numerous tube experiments from single ended 300B up to high power tube amps. I guess I have become concerned with the noise factor of tubes and have given over to some of the excellent solid state equipment these days. I have tried tube head amp experiments with my UHA tape decks only to abandon the project for the sake of the quiet and dynamic sound I can get out of the right solid state designs.
TOE IN:
After setting up the MBL speakers with Jurgen Reis or Jeremy Brian (along with many late night conversations) numerous times, I subscribe to the logic of Jurgen regarding toe in. If you notice the lamellas on the radialstrahlers there is one that faces straight front on all three drivers. You want that lamella firing straight at your listening position.
The theory is that this sound wave hits you first, then the rest of the waves generated by the other lamellas. This sounds correct to your brain just as an instrument, say a violin for example does when it radiates sound as it is being played. This set up is very important to getting the most from the radialstrahler.
FLOOR:
Yes I do have concrete under my carpet. I have also been experimenting with Stillpoints under the 101's with a great result. They seem to tighten everything up nicely. I have also used them with great result on preamps amps and also my tape decks, very interesting results! I can actually adjust them to give me many different bass configurations, I think this will be a very valuable tool for shows where room bass is usually an issue.
PLACEMENT:
I just sold my 101E's and have not received my 101MK2's yet so I cannot offer any exact measurements at this time. However I can say that my room is off center because of a doorway, however this has never been an issue for me.
Interesting set up with the VAC 450 mono's, would love to hear that. I was a tube guy for many years with numerous tube experiments from single ended 300B up to high power tube amps. I guess I have become concerned with the noise factor of tubes and have given over to some of the excellent solid state equipment these days. I have tried tube head amp experiments with my UHA tape decks only to abandon the project for the sake of the quiet and dynamic sound I can get out of the right solid state designs.
TOE IN:
After setting up the MBL speakers with Jurgen Reis or Jeremy Brian (along with many late night conversations) numerous times, I subscribe to the logic of Jurgen regarding toe in. If you notice the lamellas on the radialstrahlers there is one that faces straight front on all three drivers. You want that lamella firing straight at your listening position.
The theory is that this sound wave hits you first, then the rest of the waves generated by the other lamellas. This sounds correct to your brain just as an instrument, say a violin for example does when it radiates sound as it is being played. This set up is very important to getting the most from the radialstrahler.
FLOOR:
Yes I do have concrete under my carpet. I have also been experimenting with Stillpoints under the 101's with a great result. They seem to tighten everything up nicely. I have also used them with great result on preamps amps and also my tape decks, very interesting results! I can actually adjust them to give me many different bass configurations, I think this will be a very valuable tool for shows where room bass is usually an issue.
PLACEMENT:
I just sold my 101E's and have not received my 101MK2's yet so I cannot offer any exact measurements at this time. However I can say that my room is off center because of a doorway, however this has never been an issue for me.
Hi Greg,
Tube amps:
No noise issues with my set-up, it's almost silent. You would have to put your ear right up to the tweeter to hear the slightest. Sonic wise, I'm very pleased over all indeed having them paired up with the VAC's. Special! indeed
Toe in:
Thanks for that info. interesting indeed. Ironic, just by my own experimenting making referrence to what you say is pretty close to my own actual set-up and findings and this should be provided to other owners. I read others sugesting these speakers being hard to set-up, I have to disgree with this and find they are by far my favourite over others I have owned. I do have numerous seating positions but when I'm in my 10-11 ft seating position that middle lamell pedal you refer to is firing to my ears "similar to when I had box speakers and the tweeter firing position which I normally preferred"
Looking at your pics and the toe in it appears even more so, is the middle lamell pedal positioned firing more to your eyes. Curious
Floor:
These speakers for sure offer sonic differences depending on what's underneath them, I have yet to try Stillpoints. Unfortuantely my floor is a suspended wood construction so there will be differences and I have been dealing with such interacting "trampoline like effect" I have had the same issue with other speakers in the past also but these speakers more so mainly due to the woofer design, other speakers "box mostly" their woofer drivers firing forward.
Placement:
This is one area that pleasantly surprises me compared to other speakers I have owned and set-up in this actual space, by far preferring the MBL's.
When are you scheduled to receive your MK2's.
Tube amps:
No noise issues with my set-up, it's almost silent. You would have to put your ear right up to the tweeter to hear the slightest. Sonic wise, I'm very pleased over all indeed having them paired up with the VAC's. Special! indeed
Toe in:
Thanks for that info. interesting indeed. Ironic, just by my own experimenting making referrence to what you say is pretty close to my own actual set-up and findings and this should be provided to other owners. I read others sugesting these speakers being hard to set-up, I have to disgree with this and find they are by far my favourite over others I have owned. I do have numerous seating positions but when I'm in my 10-11 ft seating position that middle lamell pedal you refer to is firing to my ears "similar to when I had box speakers and the tweeter firing position which I normally preferred"
Looking at your pics and the toe in it appears even more so, is the middle lamell pedal positioned firing more to your eyes. Curious
Floor:
These speakers for sure offer sonic differences depending on what's underneath them, I have yet to try Stillpoints. Unfortuantely my floor is a suspended wood construction so there will be differences and I have been dealing with such interacting "trampoline like effect" I have had the same issue with other speakers in the past also but these speakers more so mainly due to the woofer design, other speakers "box mostly" their woofer drivers firing forward.
Placement:
This is one area that pleasantly surprises me compared to other speakers I have owned and set-up in this actual space, by far preferring the MBL's.
When are you scheduled to receive your MK2's.
Hi Dev,
The speakers appear to have more toe in because my listening seat is somewhat close.
Fine points of set up:
The idea is to get that lead lamella firing right between your eyes. I use a laser range finder to set up speakers, it works well. I hold it right between my eyes touching my head at my comfortable seating position then point it to each of the three lead lamellas and make sure all three are the same distance from L speaker to R speaker. That way the sound hits you correctly with no channel delay. The laser range finder is also great for rear or sidewall measurement.
I have not encountered too much trouble setting up the speakers, but I do hear a definite improvement when all is correct with the placement.
Trampoline effect:
That's too bad, another obstacle to overcome...
Have you tried some type of rigid platform under the speakers? This could change the sound depending on the platform material and the type of decoupling material you used to keep it off the floor.
May be worth some experimentation who knows??
I think I am still 4 to 6 weeks away from the new 101MK2's, bummer. If you have not heard the Mks I can tell you that they have improved many things in the new design, wonderful sounding speakers.
The speakers appear to have more toe in because my listening seat is somewhat close.
Fine points of set up:
The idea is to get that lead lamella firing right between your eyes. I use a laser range finder to set up speakers, it works well. I hold it right between my eyes touching my head at my comfortable seating position then point it to each of the three lead lamellas and make sure all three are the same distance from L speaker to R speaker. That way the sound hits you correctly with no channel delay. The laser range finder is also great for rear or sidewall measurement.
I have not encountered too much trouble setting up the speakers, but I do hear a definite improvement when all is correct with the placement.
Trampoline effect:
That's too bad, another obstacle to overcome...
Have you tried some type of rigid platform under the speakers? This could change the sound depending on the platform material and the type of decoupling material you used to keep it off the floor.
May be worth some experimentation who knows??
I think I am still 4 to 6 weeks away from the new 101MK2's, bummer. If you have not heard the Mks I can tell you that they have improved many things in the new design, wonderful sounding speakers.
Hi Greg,
Prior I have experimented with greater toe in for my 10-11 foot listening position but due to my multible seating positions for listening I ended up with what I curently have. My furthest listening position the speakers lamell is actually positioned as you mention.
Now that I have had my set-up in this position for a while I'll try again and have a listen, I also use a laser having it installed ontop of a tripod when doing any measurements so I'm as accurate as posible.
Under speakers:
Yes I have tried numerous products and currently I have my speakers with no spikes sitting on a Symposium Svelt + platform, the platform is sitting on four 3/8 inch ball bearings which are placed within Titanium inserts of large Herbie pucks.
So far this is my preference and the floor is not interacting as prior but still not 100%.
MKII speakers:
If you refer to my VAC journey and the first time hearing the VAC 450 Statement 450 tube mono blocks was with the Black MBL's in the pics which were actual MKII's, there are differences but they still do not make the prior design sound broken. I find there are greater differences to be found in associated gear feeding them along with cables, set-up and room.
Two areas that surprised me, first one being the very top end frequency, I prefer the non MKII's. Second one being over all performance image heights, the MKII's being shorter I prefer the non MKII's.
I would really need both on hand fully broken-in to do a head to head evaluation to properly provide a more detailed description but over all I did not hear anything wanting me to dump my non MKII versions.
Prior I have experimented with greater toe in for my 10-11 foot listening position but due to my multible seating positions for listening I ended up with what I curently have. My furthest listening position the speakers lamell is actually positioned as you mention.
Now that I have had my set-up in this position for a while I'll try again and have a listen, I also use a laser having it installed ontop of a tripod when doing any measurements so I'm as accurate as posible.
Under speakers:
Yes I have tried numerous products and currently I have my speakers with no spikes sitting on a Symposium Svelt + platform, the platform is sitting on four 3/8 inch ball bearings which are placed within Titanium inserts of large Herbie pucks.
So far this is my preference and the floor is not interacting as prior but still not 100%.
MKII speakers:
If you refer to my VAC journey and the first time hearing the VAC 450 Statement 450 tube mono blocks was with the Black MBL's in the pics which were actual MKII's, there are differences but they still do not make the prior design sound broken. I find there are greater differences to be found in associated gear feeding them along with cables, set-up and room.
Two areas that surprised me, first one being the very top end frequency, I prefer the non MKII's. Second one being over all performance image heights, the MKII's being shorter I prefer the non MKII's.
I would really need both on hand fully broken-in to do a head to head evaluation to properly provide a more detailed description but over all I did not hear anything wanting me to dump my non MKII versions.
Hi Greg and Dev,
So glad to see there are other MBL owners out there.
WRT toe in, I have also found that this is critical to balance tonality, dimensionality, and center fill.
After moving the 116's around for better than a year, I've ended up with the top modules pretty much firing direct at the center position. I have a minimum amount of "toe out" where I can see a very small portion of the cabinets inside walls from the center chair. I'm also set up for "near field" listening given room constraints and have speakers on robust cones, which are placed on BDR pucks, which rest on my wood floor. As a result, I believe I have isolated the speakers from the floor, to the maximum extent possible, thereby eliminating any speaker / floor vibration issues.
Finding the final position was a bit difficult given the architecture of the speaker. Having said that, I am very happy with my current set up. Greg, look forward to your observations on the new 101's.
Gordon
PS: Caesar, TAS recently had an article where they asked the designer about the height change. He indicated this was done as a result of other design refinements with the end result being a better controlled low bass response.
Also regarding the "you are there" feeling, properly set up, the MBL's simply disappear leaving only the music. This includes listening far off - axis. I would conjecture that it is because of the "omni" technology. They do "space" like no other transducer I've heard over some 30 years of being involved in this wonderful hobby.
So glad to see there are other MBL owners out there.
WRT toe in, I have also found that this is critical to balance tonality, dimensionality, and center fill.
After moving the 116's around for better than a year, I've ended up with the top modules pretty much firing direct at the center position. I have a minimum amount of "toe out" where I can see a very small portion of the cabinets inside walls from the center chair. I'm also set up for "near field" listening given room constraints and have speakers on robust cones, which are placed on BDR pucks, which rest on my wood floor. As a result, I believe I have isolated the speakers from the floor, to the maximum extent possible, thereby eliminating any speaker / floor vibration issues.
Finding the final position was a bit difficult given the architecture of the speaker. Having said that, I am very happy with my current set up. Greg, look forward to your observations on the new 101's.
Gordon
PS: Caesar, TAS recently had an article where they asked the designer about the height change. He indicated this was done as a result of other design refinements with the end result being a better controlled low bass response.
Also regarding the "you are there" feeling, properly set up, the MBL's simply disappear leaving only the music. This includes listening far off - axis. I would conjecture that it is because of the "omni" technology. They do "space" like no other transducer I've heard over some 30 years of being involved in this wonderful hobby.
Last edited:
out of business
They did with the new owners , their web site is MBL america...mbl usa was the old site with peter alexander as importer, he was bsically terminated when the original mbl was sold to the new owner. their new agent and warehosue is in the east coast so the 480 arizona number where peter was is no longer.
They did with the new owners , their web site is MBL america...mbl usa was the old site with peter alexander as importer, he was bsically terminated when the original mbl was sold to the new owner. their new agent and warehosue is in the east coast so the 480 arizona number where peter was is no longer.
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