Can You Believe This-The Government Wants Us To Go EV but In So Doing They Will impose a gas surcharge

[Empirical Audio]

A better question might be to recommended some basic reading material pro and con. Internet searches turn up bazillions of articles and no way to sort by credibility. Is there a "dummies guide to climate change" that lays it out? I think most folk are making up their minds on emotional rather than scientific evidence, e.g. by whom they like best on TV, etc.

You can do what I did and have been doing for 10 years. Just Google Climate change and NOAA, NASA, DOE and other agencies and organizations. There is a plethora of info out there in charts, graphs and raw data. Easy to interpret, but they explain most of it.

Arguments like "It's just mother nature" or "this has happened before in earths past history" are just BS. Do the reading. The rate of change of both warming and CO2 is unprecedented in the history of the earth. The closest analog happened 55 million years ago. They use core samples from the bottom of the ocean and from polar cap ice samples to determine this. The same changes that are happening now in 100 years took 1000 to 10,000 years to happen 55 million years ago. This is the rate that natural changes take place, even with major volcanoes erupting. The only thing in earths history that made changes this fast was the meteor impact that they believe caused the dinosaurs to go extinct.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Just FYI, attached is the plan I believe will actually save us from the wrath of Climate Change. This is a lot like the sacrifices that people had to make to win WW2 and it needs to be or we will never get there in time.

BTW, tomorrow (Friday) is Climate Strike Day across the US. Lots of high-school and middle-school kids will be out in the streets protesting the use of fossil fuels. I will be joining them. Here is the info for those that care and may want to participate:

https://actionnetwork.org/event_campaigns/us-climate-strikes

 

[LenWhite]

I read a good Vox article today reminding us most of our parents & grandparents incurred short term costs & deprivations to help us. They scrimped to give us a shot at a better life, to put us through school, or they lined up to fight wars.

Reminding us that choosing less consumption doesn’t mean living a miserable life. On the contrary, it can mean a more meaningful & moral life & one that doesn’t destroy the opportunity for future humans to have decent lives.

Reminding us the only long-lasting cultures are those that don’t eat their seed corn or choose to always put the present above what they know they’ll need to survive in the future.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envi...a-ocasio-cortez-greta-thunberg-climate-change

 

[NorthStar]

? https://video.newyorker.com/watch/greta-thunberg-leads-the-world-climate-strike

 

[KeithR]

Yes, I've heard that multiple countries will fall into the ocean causing an unprecedented immigration crisis - i'll take odds on this by 2030, name the wager.

 

[BlueFox]

Some Pacific Island nations will be under water relatively soon from what I have read. Of course, there will be the usual suspects who say it is a hoax, or just nature.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Yes, I've heard that multiple countries will fall into the ocean causing an unprecedented immigration crisis - i'll take odds on this by 2030, name the wager.

I suppose you make fun of the situation when someones house is flooding or burning too. We all know who you are.

 

[assessor43]

there is a scene in the documentary "Before The Flood" where Leonardo Di Caprio gets in his Porshe and the look on his face when he realizes he is just as guilty of excess and the climate problem as anybody. Powerful scene and I could not watch the rest of the Doc. It was just too depressing. Life is too short.

 

[DonH50]

Well, this went downhill fast... Made me think of this cartoon in today's paper. I alternate between being Goat and Rat; everybody always assumes they are Goat, natch.

 

[NorthStar]

 

[Empirical Audio]

Individuals must start doing their part, including:

1. Buying an electric vehicle or at least a hybrid
2. Installing LED bulbs
3. Replacing that heatpump with an efficient inverter-type
4. Improving house insulation
5. Installing solar cells for power generation
6. Installing a solar hot-water heating system
7. Buying an electric leaf-blower or weed-wacker
8. Turn off lights and appliances when not in use
9. Run dishwasher and laundry only with full load
10. Consolidate travel to reduce car emissions
11. Ride a bike or walk
12. Keep your ICE vehicle tuned-up
13. Turn engine off when parked or at rail-crossings, road construction etc..
14. Keep tires inflated to nominal pressure
15. Remove excess weight from your vehicles
16. Avoid burning any common fireplaces
17. Replace woodstove or insert with high-efficiency version
18. Avoid outside burning of yard debris
19. Reduce Beef and dairy consumption
20. Don’t start your ICE engine until you are buckled-up and ready to drive – it’s a myth that cars need warmup

Scenerios for comparison:​

High emitter individual:
Large SUV vehicle CO2 emissions per capita - 4.76 ton CO2
Equivalent per capita CO2 emissions of 50% meat diet - 3.6 ton CO2.
Total annual emissions - 8.36 ton CO2

Low emitter individual:
Small vehicle (such as Prius) CO2 emissions per capita - 1.19 ton CO2
Equivalent per capita CO2 emissions of 20% meat diet - 1.25 ton CO2
Total annual emissions - 2.44 ton CO2

Reference:
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/EI167.1

Electric power generation in the US emits 1.9 Billion Metric Tons of CO2 each year

Combine all transportation emissions including air travel and commercial trucking and this is actually larger than all of the power plant CO2 emissions and unlike the power plants, it’s growing each year, now about 30% of US emissions. Cars and trucks are actually the largest emitters now, thanks to actions by Obama and the cheap natural gas released by US fracking reducing the power plant emissions.

Personal cars and trucks emit about .9 Billion Metric Tons of CO2 each year, about half of what the power plants emit, and about 15% of the US total. Another 5% is the power wasted and excess CO2 emitted by the average homeowner that heats with oil or natural gas and has a poorly insulated home full of incandescent light bulbs.

This brings the low-hanging fruit to 20%, which you and I have direct control over and could make an immediate difference.

I want to focus on the BIG pieces of the CO2 emissions, and those that can be addressed quickly. Power plant transition can take a decade or more. Getting ICE cars and trucks off the road can happen in a few years. Most electric cars are used for commuting and these get charged in the garage, not at a long-distance charger. Those are for vacations and business travel. Pretty much everyone has an AC outlet in their garage. If you remember 9/11, the air traffic over the US was stopped for 1 week. NOAA was able to measure a drop in the temperature of the planet, just from one week of no air travel over the US.

The country-wide charging infrastructure for Tesla is already in place. The problem is that almost all Climate organizations are focused on the government and business solving the problem for us. We need a grass-roots movement for the people to take part in the solution. This is what Greta Thunberg is saying, but no one in the US seems to be getting the message. The percentage of deniers in the US is larger than any other developed country. It's just wrong.

 

[GSOphile]

I suppose you make fun of the situation when someones house is flooding or burning too. We all know who you are.

I didn't read his post that way at all. What I inferred is that he's not among the more hysterical climate predictors. I'd be more than happy to place the same bet, but that certainly doesn't make me a cheerleader for someone else's misfortune.

 

[NorthStar]

What about big ships dumping garbage into the ocean?
What about Japan dumping mass quantities of radio active waste info the Pacific Ocean?

Who eat the fishes...salmon, tuna, etc. Which kids and adults are they?
How many millions years till it evaporates?
Japan is not much into powered nuclear reactors now ... they must havd learned something very very important?

Cruise ships?
Big airplanes and private jets used for the sex trades (human exploitation), drug trades and arm sales...tanks and guns and ammunitions? ...Machine guns, grenades, land mines, rocket launchers, drones, ... private destination parties with minors and paid with our taxes?

The young Swedish girl leading the climate change is very articulated, charming...important assets for sure; she needs all the supports from the scientific community and from intelligent world's leaders. She needs to spread awereness to afults first then kids.
It's the adults who are supposed to inspire our next younger generations.
When I was a kid I related on Dad and Mom, not the other way around. I was teached to get a good education in order to get a good job and and a good support for family...wife and kids, food on the table, roof over our heads, health insurance, good pension, ...all the good normal things in life...peace, independence, liberty, happiness.

A good leading team is one who pick a group of individuals to encourage electric cars over ICE cars. ...For one, by making it easier, affordable, giving discounts, ...attractive.
I would like to see an electric Bugatti Chiron (my favorite car).

...Electric buses, trains, planes and automobiles.
_____

 

[Steve Williams]

Can I remind everyone what the topic of this thread is. Having just read Bobs post I must finally intervene.
I think everyone has made their points but unless we can stay on topic and not waste from cruise ships I think this thread has run its course

 

[NorthStar]

My apologies for the off topic content Steve.
_____

* Here's the latest...on topic:
• Why Americans Don’t Buy Electric Cars (Hey, The Tesla Model 3 Isn’t That Popular)

 

[DonH50]

Back to EVs, a couple of articles were in my inbox this morning:

Battery tech (SS batteries): https://www.powerelectronics.com/au...d98adbe78d3b18598e&oly_enc_id=2127J7762501H5G There are a number of other alternatives floating around but certainly all the added complexity and weight of control and monitoring circuitry for Li-ion batteries is a burden driving the search for something better. Fuel cells are another approach though in my casual watch I have seen much less discussion of them lately. The cells themselves have been much improved in storage and safety, but the infrastructure for recharging is simply not there.

China's lead in EVs (also notes the IP problem many companies face with China and has a list of companies outside China developing EVs): https://www.powerelectronics.com/au...d98adbe78d3b18598e&oly_enc_id=2127J7762501H5G

And here's an interesting article about the use of supercapacitors in a Lamborghini: https://www.powerelectronics.com/au...d98adbe78d3b18598e&oly_enc_id=2127J7762501H5G Seems fitting for WBF.

Regarding the OP, it seems fairly inevitable that with such a large tax stream from gasoline and diesel sales, governments will have to replace that stream from someplace. Pretty rare for gov't to decrease in size... Registration fees for EVs would seem to me to be a logical place.

 

[PeterA]

Regarding the OP, it seems fairly inevitable that with such a large tax stream from gasoline and diesel sales, governments will have to replace that stream from someplace. Pretty rare for gov't to decrease in size... Registration fees for EVs would seem to me to be a logical place.

Registrations fees are based on the value of the vehicle, at least here in MA. So the consumer is charged based on (their) purchase decision rather than on the vehicle's use on the road. I'd rather see a fee based on actual usage if the revenue is used for the express purpose of maintaining the roads. The more one drives, the more (they) is charged. To me, that seems the most fair. The issue then becomes, how does the government monitor how much one drives. Here is MA, I'd like to see the electronic toll fair increase on the major roadways rather than a collection from registrations, unless of course, everyone pays the same registration fee per vehicle. That way, EVs and ICEs are charged the same for the same use of the roadways.

For local roads, maintenance cost should simply come out of the local real estate tax revenue and be allocated as needed. There is always the issue of balancing what is fair between local, state, Federal revenue and expenses. How much should be redistributed?

 

[GSOphile]

Registrations fees are based on the value of the vehicle, at least here in MA. So the consumer is charged based on (their) purchase decision rather than on the vehicle's use on the road. I'd rather see a fee based on actual usage if the revenue is used for the express purpose of maintaining the roads. The more one drives, the more (they) is charged. To me, that seems the most fair. The issue then becomes, how does the government monitor how much one drives. Here is MA, I'd like to see the electronic toll fair increase on the major roadways rather than a collection from registrations, unless of course, everyone pays the same registration fee per vehicle. That way, EVs and ICEs are charged the same for the same use of the roadways.

For local roads, maintenance cost should simply come out of the local real estate tax revenue and be allocated as needed. There is always the issue of balancing what is fair between local, state, Federal revenue and expenses. How much should be redistributed?

Good post. Registrations would seem the simplest to implement and probably the best way, at least initially. Then, when the screams over fairness reach a crescendo, governments can come up with more complex solutions that require more administration.

 

[DaveC]

Registrations fees are based on the value of the vehicle, at least here in MA. So the consumer is charged based on (their) purchase decision rather than on the vehicle's use on the road. I'd rather see a fee based on actual usage if the revenue is used for the express purpose of maintaining the roads. The more one drives, the more (they) is charged. To me, that seems the most fair. The issue then becomes, how does the government monitor how much one drives. Here is MA, I'd like to see the electronic toll fair increase on the major roadways rather than a collection from registrations, unless of course, everyone pays the same registration fee per vehicle. That way, EVs and ICEs are charged the same for the same use of the roadways.

For local roads, maintenance cost should simply come out of the local real estate tax revenue and be allocated as needed. There is always the issue of balancing what is fair between local, state, Federal revenue and expenses. How much should be redistributed?

Here in CO registration fees are based on value and weight afaik, then you pay more for use by paying more gas tax when you fill up. With EVs they can't be charged per mile as easily so I can see them having higher registration fees.

 

[DonH50]

I suppose either OBD-xx or something like it to give them access to your car's info, or requiring you to enter the odometer reading when you renew so they can calculate the mileage use over the past year to calculate a "usage tax". People could underreport, natch, and as usual it is basing future use on past use. No perfect system. A gas tax handles that nicely since you pay as you go for the gas (and thus presumably miles) you use and has the added "advantage" of penalizing those who use the most gas. That makes the eco-types happy though those who really do need to use a vehicle poor in gas mileage are arguably unfairly penalized..