Cable Modems

[Xymox]

Would love to turn off WiFi for the improvement in sound, but we have too many items that rely on WiFi.
Video doorbell, iPhones.

Get a seperate wifi access point. Turn off the internal one. You do have to configure the new wifi access point. If you use the exact same wifi SSID ( name ) and the exact same passwords, all your devices will hook to the new one without having to change all the devices. Make sure to disable the one in the gateway first then enable to new one.

 

[gfroman]

I must be dumb, but I don't understand how to do this.
Have 2 routers??

 

[WladimirMXP]

There is also some debate that the Intel Atom CPU in the PUMA 6 and 7 SoIC allows code to be run that might allow government interception and this might be motivational for some countries. So some countries might be locked into Pumas for this reason. BUT that is just a rumor.

Yeah, that rumor is reasonable. But according to the operator in VF CZ, I should be able to run also other EuroDOCSIS 3.1 modems, like Technicolor CGA6444VF or CGA4233DE, which both have Broadcom chipsets. Waiting for some other confirmations on this, but those are my best bets right now.

Whether I succeed with the modem or not, I take your advice to get some separate router seriously, but today I'm already too exhausted to start researching routers, therefore I ask straight: Which one would you suggest? Or do you have some spare modded to sell to me?

 

[Xymox]

I must be dumb, but I don't understand how to do this.
Have 2 routers??

Very reasonable question. It is confuzing.

The best way to do a home network, or buis network, IMHO,, is to do the following. BUT. This requires some configuration of devices and more boxes. It is also fairly complex.

The chain of devices:

Cable MODEM. This is a modem ONLY. No router functions. Its just a interface to the cable system. For example ArrisS33 or SB8200. https://www.surfboard.com/products/cable-modems/s33/

Router. This does a bunch of stuff providing the interface of all your devices on your network with the world outside thru the modem. This *might* have a wifi access point in it. I think its best to not have wifi in the router. For example. https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2216_1g_12xs_2xq

Switch. Hooks a bunch of devices to one connection that goes to the router. It also does some isolation of packets between ports. A switch can isolate packets locally between devices connected to the same switch. This is where its used a lot in audio. A lot of different audio tuned switches are discussed at Whats Best.

Access point. Provides wifi. This is a dedicated device just for that. Like Aruba or Ubiquiti. For example https://www.arubanetworks.com/assets/ds/DS_AP650Series.pdf

To hook all this up is not trivial. If you want to do multigig everything needs to be at least 2.5 Gbps. Things like SFP+ modules, single mode fiber, SFP+ Direct connect, What types of ethernet to use and how all this needs to be done with audio in mind is complex. Each system will be different.

Cable companies want you to get a gateway. A do everything in one box device. While incredibly simple, it has a number of limitations. You cant do each function as well. A powerful router can never be stuffed into a gateway. Plus you cant upgrade the router to a new one as needed. Wifi in a gateway cant be as good as these separate companies because companies like Aruba have patents covering key stuff and technology. You can put access points all over the house and provide a far better wifi experence then using repeaters.

Stuffing everything into one box degrades performance in a number of ways as discussed here like turning off wifi to get better sound.

While a gateway is incredibly simple, a one box solution has limitations.

Good to befriend a network guy who you can get excited about doing some exotic networking. Aruba Instant is pretty easy, Mikrotik is medium level. Ubiquity has some easy solutions, but not always the best performance. A lot of this stuff is on ebay and you can get things used cheap and just experiment.

 

[Xymox]

Yeah, that rumor is reasonable. But according to the operator in VF CZ, I should be able to run also other EuroDOCSIS 3.1 modems, like Technicolor CGA6444VF or CGA4233DE, which both have Broadcom chipsets. Waiting for some other confirmations on this, but those are my best bets right now.

Whether I succeed with the modem or not, I take your advice to get some separate router seriously, but today I'm already too exhausted to start researching routers, therefore I ask straight: Which one would you suggest? Or do you have some spare modded to sell to me?

I hope you have luck with the modem.

Router... Difficult question.. There are many threads here on this question. Its complex as a router will also be in use for the rest of the house, not just the audio. So here in the US ISPs are rolling out speeds faster then 1Gbps and this makes things more difficult for a audio based modem as all the units discussed here seem to be limited to 1Gbps.

I have made a switch that i have given to my AppleTV X distributor to compare with the other switches in the audio market. Its modular, highly modded, radically lowered noise and jitter on the physical ethernet layer and has a low phase noise clock. It can do 10Gbps, optical single mode, SPF+, Ethernet and 1G ethernet all modular. Nice R-Core linear power supply with noise cancellation like I do with the AppleTV X. *IF* it sounds as good as the other high end audio switches, hopefully better, then I will sell it. I will then be confident in my engineering on networking and will also do a 100Gbps router. Maybe a modem. I have a highly modded S33 right now running on a linear.

A modded modem might be a better project as no one has done one and it matters for audio.

I expect to know if the Switch X is worth doing in a few weeks after some evaul by my dist in a list of high end systems doing direct AB with various switches here.

I am pretty busy making AppleTV X's tho and this might delay me some in starting up production on a Switch X or a Modem X.

 

[WladimirMXP]

Thanks man! According to a VF-CZ forum moderator, noone in our Republic has tried a 3rd party modem yet, so I guess someone like me has to be the first then

For the router itself, probably the only one that I like at first/second sight is Ubiquiti ER-X or one if its siblings. I have no room for "flagship" routers and esentially also no need for such in a 2bedroom apartment. Does anyone here have good results with a router from this family?

Or any other tip for some another? DC 12V input and metal chassis are my requirements, as I'm having a 2x 12V LPSU en route and planning to use pads below it, as I've acknowledged the importance of vibration control with these devices.

You have a wonderful ride with networking (and Intel , wishing you most luck & success continuing on.

 

[WladimirMXP]

@Xymox I've found some other candidate, which would suit my aesthetical criteria Reviews are somewhat mixed, but mostly because of things that I don't really care / plan to use anyway.
Could you please take a look at it, if it's at least half-decent for the standalone router/bridge role?

Razer Sila (RZ37-0251) - TechInfoDepot

This device was under short-term confidentiality, but that expired 03/27/2019 ⚠. "WRTQ-334ACN_V04" and "ESQ-S15-0905R RoHS" are silkscreened on the board in the FCC photos.

en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com

Thanks

 

[vert]

Get a seperate wifi access point. Turn off the internal one. You do have to configure the new wifi access point. If you use the exact same wifi SSID ( name ) and the exact same passwords, all your devices will hook to the new one without having to change all the devices. Make sure to disable the one in the gateway first then enable to new one.

This is exactly what I do.

The problem is the access point will inject noise into the music stream if it's connected to a noisy power line and/or power supply.

It injects noise even though it's used only to control playback (my streamer is connected to the router directly via ethernet).

I run my access point off battery power during my listening session to solve this problem. Then I switch the access point power supply to wall power after I'm done listening.

 

[vert]

I have a highly modded S33 right now running on a linear.

A modded modem might be a better project as no one has done one and it matters for audio.

My vote is for a modded S33, or modded cable modem/router one box, since no one has done one (like you said).

 

[marty]

I wanted to thank Vince (@vert) for his excellent suggestion that he communicated to me via PM, to turn off the wireless network created by my ISP modem (Motorola MT7711). I have one modem LAN port hard wired to my Orbi /Netgear mesh system which creates a wireless network for the entire house so the wireless network created internally by the ISP modem is unnecessary. Vince suggests it just creates addtional unwanted noise in the network if left active. I think he is correct. I now have an ISP modem LAN port running Cat 6 direct to the Xxtreme and the sonic difference with the internal ISP modem's wireless now removed from the network is easily heard.

I was also surprised that running the 50' Cat 6 signal direct from modem to Extreme was actually noticeably better sonically than running the Extreme from an Orbi satellite port located a short distance from the Extreme. This suggests that indeed there will almost surely be something more to be gained with the release of the Taiko router. But I'm still about a week away from getting my switch, so all good things in time.

When the Taiko router is released, I will likely migrate to a separate modem as well. But since I require 2 line telephony I will probably move to the a Netgear CM2050V modem rather than the Arris S33 as cited above.

 

[matthias]

I can easily hear the difference with Qobuz when I turn off the WiFi broadcast on my Broadcom xfinity router.

Thanks for reporting.
Did you compare the impact of the 2.4GHz and 5GHz Wi-Fi separately?
When using Wi-Fi is it better to use either the 2.4GHz or the 5GHz?
If yes, which one is better for SQ?
Thx again

Matt

 

[vert]

Thanks for reporting.
Did you compare the impact of the 2.4GHz and 5GHz Wi-Fi separately?
When using Wi-Fi is it better to use either the 2.4GHz or the 5GHz?
If yes, which one is better for SQ?
Thx again

Matt

Matt, I turned them both off at once, since I use only ethernet.

I personally didn't have much success with wifi for sound quality.

 

[MarcelNL]

interesting conversation on network topology over at the taiko extreme thread...ATM I count THREE routers and a couple of switches...likely all requiring proper linear feed...not sure I'm ready for that (yet)
I have an ISP provided router that would not be an issue to use , buying another router for audio purposes, fine....but two more nice LPSU's? It simply won't fit in the utility cabinet.

I'm at the stage where I have a SJ based DIY LPUS for my fiber modem (ISP fiber goes directly into it, but need to add an access point to get rid of the internal WIFI...Audio is separated through an switch with SFP+ fiber to my NIC

 

[vert]

interesting conversation on network topology over at the taiko extreme thread...ATM I count THREE routers and a couple of switches...likely all requiring proper linear feed...not sure I'm ready for that (yet)

One thing I learned is anything plugged into the cable modem/router will interact with the streaming setup and affect the sound.

Even upgrading the power supply on my access point to a Farad was a big step up.

And there is no music playing through the access point!

The access point only creates a wifi network to control music playback.

But since the access point is plugged into the router, its power supply is interacting with my system.

 

[marty]

A modded modem might be a better project as no one has done one and it matters for audio.

That's a very attractive thought, but it is not an attractive project for Taiko. Modding someone else's gear, although I'm sure they would do a great job, would just be a distraction for a small company like Taiko. Are they then going to take warranty responsibilities for someone else's gear? Not practical at all, IMO. However, Xymox, you ARE exactly the right guy for this! Let me know when you want to undertake modding my ISP cable modem!

 

[InfigoAudio]

Have you guys experimented with sectioning off your network into a clean and dirty side? It solves a lot of the problems mentioned here...
I wrote a little piece about it yesterday in this thread... https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ethernet-tweak.36727/
Maybe it helps.

Cheers, Hans.

 

[MarcelNL]

I'm not using a NAS, and my router serves as the modem (ISP fiber goes straight into the router)

 

[Bso]

Thanks for reporting.
Did you compare the impact of the 2.4GHz and 5GHz Wi-Fi separately?
When using Wi-Fi is it better to use either the 2.4GHz or the 5GHz?
If yes, which one is better for SQ?
Thx again

Matt

Neither.

2.4 GHz is supposed to have more send/receive range than 5 GHz. One should not confuse the over the air broadcast frequencies of 2.4GHz and 5GHz of wifi with the 1 G, etc. of cable or thin wire ethernet specs which is a data rate, sometimes bits and sometimes bytes.

Please remember that Wi-fi 5 or 6 is based on a radio broadcast and reception by (inexpensive) Wifi transmitters/receivers no matter which carrier frequency.

Without getting into the details, a wired ethernet router/switch of sufficient bandwidth, e.g., 1 Gb , using cat 5e or above, will as a rule always 'sound' better, receive less and create less interference and noise, and have fewer drop outs and audible buffering, than either Wi-Fi band especially with high bit rate/density 'files' like high definition QoBuZ streams.

 

[vert]

Another possible upgrade after turning off the internal wifi radio on a cable modem/router one box is to use an access point that uses less power. So that it has less impact on the sound.

This was suggested by Taiko.

I’m now using a lower power access point, and I won’t be going back to the high powered one.

 

[MarcelNL]

that is bascially what i've been doing for the last few years, works like a charm!
What Taiko is doing is that they will be using a low power WIFI accesspoint to control the Extreme server, this assumes the audio router is near the server or a low power WIFI AP will not work