Buying new vs used - the economics

[ack]

Where do people stand on buying new vs used? I started long ago by buying _mostly_ used and have switched to new with discounts in recent years as performance has significantly improved. One exception is speakers, where I've bought exclusively new.

This has enabled me to have both a nice and "current" system, and have it w/o spending too much over current list price plus tax for the whole thing; the difference is really just $3300 of overpayment.

How have others managed hardware expenses? How do you feel about new vs used? It is well understood that, if you go into a dealer to audition something, then you should/must (take your pick) buy from him; ditto if service in the future is important to you, even if no audition is involved - we all know all that is right, so no need to lecture anyone about it...

 

[Steve Williams]

Lloydelee here is IMO the king of procuring the best used deals on high end gear

 

[DaveyF]

Personally, I have no problem buying used vs. new....with the following exceptions: Cartridges, CD transports (depending on the age and type) and Record cleaning machines. The latter particularly seems crazy to me to acquire used....BUT I'm glad people do, since I have sold mine on two occasions and for a substantial amount of the cost of new

 

[RogerD]

After so many years in this hobby, I would have no problem buying used. I like to voice my own equipment and to do that with new equipment makes no sense. I have bought new and used cables,both have there place depending on use and logistics.

 

[rockitman]

I bought my amps as 3 month old demo's, saved $6,500 off msrp, My W/P 8's for $13K a savings of $13K and various other components. Buying used saves a ton of money and the stuff is broken in. Win Win deal, if you ask me. Buying speaker's used is the best deal you can do. The original buyer always takes the big hit on hi end speaker resale.

 

[JackD201]

Carts, maybe. Everything else, Yes.

 

[FrantzM]

I bought my amps as 3 month old demo's, saved $6,500 off msrp, My W/P 8's for $13K a savings of $13K and various other components. Buying used saves a ton of money and the stuff is broken in. Win Win deal, if you ask me. Buying speaker's used is the best deal you can do. The original buyer always takes the big hit on hi end speaker resale.

Carts, maybe. Everything else, Yes.

I agree ... I don't think I will ever buy new again ... The best deals come when there are new ... "improved" models ...

 

[JackD201]

And just like cars, one is more likely to encounter unforeseen problems with earlier production runs. Even when I buy new I try not to be first off the block. Now, I did say try. My discipline fails me at times LOL.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I have no issues being used at all, but then again I'm very careful about it and do my research on both the product and the seller (as much as one can). Admittedly my buying "used" stems from necessity, as I don't have the funds to buy new at times and it's been a great way to assemble a somewhat decent-sounding rig.

My Totem Sttafs were purchased NEW, as has every speaker I have ever owned. This is not because I didn't want to buy them used...it just worked out that way. My Nottingham Analogue Horizon SE turntable was purchased used and included a Grado Reference Platinum cartridge. When I bought it the TT/Cart combo it was about a year and a half old , and I only paid $950 for it. The MSRP for both was $2,400, so I think I did alright. Before I purchased it I was able to audition it at the sellers home one Saturday morning, and we spent about 3 hours together. I mention this, because I would not buy a used TT without an audition EVER. And lastly, my Vintage Pioneer IA was obviously bought used, but I wanted it badly as mine was stolen some years earlier and I always really liked the unit. It was purely an emotional purchase I admit.

 

[cjfrbw]

Everybody knows that nobody knew how to build audio until recently.

The newest phono cartridges indicate that everybody until the last couple of months were just fooling themselves for 50 years.

Nobody ever puts out a new model of XXXX that isn't better.

High fidelity audio didn't begin until transistors took their proper place in the amplifier world and digital media is always better than last years model.

Of course, why would one want to own anything that has been tainted by the hands of another.

So, I buy only new and the highest possible price to assure that the idiots of the past i.e. anything from more than a few months ago and the germ filled hands of others don't pollute my listening space.

Also, being a strict egalitarian status and prestige have nothing to do with it.

 

[FrantzM]

everybody knows that nobody knew how to build audio until recently.

The newest phono cartridges indicate that everybody until the last couple of months were just fooling themselves for 50 years.

Nobody ever puts out a new model of xxxx that isn't better.

High fidelity audio didn't begin until transistors took their proper place in the amplifier world and digital media is always better than last years model.

Of course, why would one want to own anything that has been tainted by the hands of another.

So, i buy only new and the highest possible price to assure that the idiots of the past i.e. Anything from more than a few months ago and the germ filled hands of others don't pollute my listening space.

Also, being a strict egalitarian status and prestige have nothing to do with it.

rotflmao !

 

[Robh3606]

I have no issues purchasing used or demos/closeouts with a warranty. Why not you can get a substantial cost savings by doing so.

Rob

 

[microstrip]

Buying used implies a trust relation with the previous owner. If I get a good deal from some one I can really trust I do not hesitate - sometimes it is a way of getting better value for money.
However, looking at used audio forums - even at WBF, we have read that many people got in trouble buying second hand.

I can easily understand that some people wisely prefer to buy new because they want peace of mind, warranty, good after sales service and the future possibility of upgrading. Also audio is a social activity - if you have a friendly dealer why not paying a little more?

 

[mep]

I don’t have a problem buying used for certain items. If I am going to buy an amp or preamp used, I try to buy from the original owner if possible and try and find one that has the original boxes and manuals. I don’t buy used cartridges. Most all of my turntables I bought brand new with the exception being the VPI TNT I owned and the SP-10 MKII I now own. My SME 312s tonearm I bought brand new as well as my Glider SL cartridge. My VPI TNT stand I still use was bought new as well.

Of course my Krell KBL, KSA-250, and KPE Reference phono stage were all bought used. The KPE Reference came from the original owner and had the original box, packing material, and owner’s manual and it works perfect. My KSA-250 came from the second owner but had the original box and packing material. Both the KBL and KSA-250 were sold as working perfectly and they were both broke-dick when I bought them. I sent them both back to the factory in October 2011 and they were repaired and recapped.

I bought my main speakers brand new. One of my subs I bought off of Ebay from the original owner who swore he only took it out of the box to take pictures. The sub sells for almost $2K new and I paid him $900. The second and matching sub was bought brand new from Ebay for $1299 including shipping.

I have an aversion to paying full retail for anything audio related due to the tremendous markups. I live out in the boonies so when I buy something new, it is done over the phone and the store is doing nothing more than serving as an order taker and I don’t feel they deserve the same markup as a walk in customer who is taking up their time with demos, and getting the service a store can provide a local customer.

 

[Matt193]

If it wasn't for used or b-stock equipment, I would probably not be into audio as much as I am or at least have a system as "good" as I have. Just about everything that I own I have bought used or b-stock and have been extremely pleased with the transaction, with a few exceptions.

My greatest buy has been a Oppo BDP-83 SE Nuforce edition that I happened to be in the right place at the right time and got it for a steal. On the flip side, I am currently disputing a transaction with PayPal because I bought a pair of monitors that the seller poorly packaged and misrepresented the condition of. I sent them back to the seller on his dime, never got a refund, and now he is not returning my emails. Will this stop me form buying used in the future? No, but I sure will be a lot more careful.

 

[amirm]

From the movie, Back to School: [discussion in the college bookstore as the son tries to buy a used book and Rodney's character who is rich tries to stop him.]

Son: What's wrong with used books?

Rodney Dangerfield - They've already been read.

. I try to buy new if I possibly can. I make exceptions of course. but as a rule, I tend to buy new because it is easier and more reliable path.

 

[LL21]

Lloydelee here is IMO the king of procuring the best used deals on high end gear

Hi Steve...i had to smile when i saw that! i was very curious when i saw the title to the thread and was surprised to see my name mentioned! thanks for the compliment.

Ack - Here is my view:

1. Electronics always advances...but not always in a linear fashion. Sometimes newer is not better, sometimes it is. As an extreme example, I still hear from Modders that the Esoteric P70 transport is ridiculously good for Redbook, whereas the Esoteric P03 has to run thru additional circuitry due to sACD even when playing CD...and the P03U which includes video is worse because of the video circuitry.

2. What I will say is that when a good manufacturer puts out a SOTA piece...one would be surprised how long it stands the test of time. ML33 Ref monos, FM Acoustics 811, Gryphon Antileon, Krell Master Reference Amps, Krell 750monos, Zanden Digital separates, Wilison X1 Grand/Slamms, SF Extremas.

Take an example: Krell 750 monos, SF Extremas and Zanden Digital Front End. If you're really disciplined, for roughly the same as a new pair of Wilson Sashas you can own this entire system.

Take another example for the same cost: Krell 750 monos, Wilson X1 Grand Slamms, DCS Elgar full stack.

3. Risks? Yes...buying sight unseen on Audiogon? Repairs? Yes, i did get burned once but it has finally been fixed, thank goodness.
Are there ways to mitigate? Yes. Typically, if i agree a deal with a seller i do not know, i pay for the unit to be shipped back to the original manufacturer...who acts as 'honest broker'. If the unit is in good working condition, i wire the full money over and the manufacturer sends to me after perhaps upgrading/tweaking at my cost. If the unit is not in good working order, we either agree a new price, or i have lost my shipping cost...but the seller has lost his shipping cost to get the unit back from the manufacturer...a fair incentive to keep most people honest.

I have yet to speak with a manufacturer of a high end piece who is not prepared to help out.

4. As for dealers, yes, you have to show some element of loyalty...otherwise you are just 'using people' for free auditions and then buying from someone else. At the same time, business is business...so my approach is to do business with my local dealer whenever i can. And i often do.

However, where i have bought second hand from someone else...i often have the unit shipped to my local dealer...and pay him a 'large handling fee' (still less than a commission) to take receipt, unpack it, store the crates, and then come over to install. We have done business for over 10 years...and as a result, i think we have a good relationship, and they know whenever i can, i will do business with them. At the same time, they also know i have bought certain units second hand and they have i believe appreciated my approach on 'handling charges' to ensure they still get something so that we maintain a good open relationship.

They have as a result also given me 'first right' to look at certain trade-in units. I recently had first right on a Metronome Kalista Reference transport, for instance.

Finally, as to my own system, it is all second-hand...all of it...and i think most people would be surprised at the % of original retail (which i know to the penny, as i track it). It can take years to collect the right pieces...i am still waiting for Zanden transport...5 years and still looking. but it is worth it for me, when i look at how much i have paid for my entire system...a lot less than a pair of new speakers which would simply not compare to my current speakers, let alone the fact that i own the whole system for the price of just those new lesser speakers.

Hope that is helpful as one person's experience.

 

[LL21]

I also would add that one really has to have conviction here. Conventional wisdom, the sales brochure, the temptation to believe the marketing brochure selling the latest piece...one has to have the conviction of his own ears to determine exactly how close the latest SOTA your second hand unit is. In some cases, it may equal or even surpass some other manufacturer's latest reference. In other cases, it will not compare...but you may say for 20 cents on the dollar...do i really care?

I listen to my own system, and i feel blessed to say despite hearing (a few...maybe 5) all-out-assault systems, i have not heard anything i prefer despite the cost of my system being (in one case) 1/10th the cost of the new reference system. That super system was full Tidal system including 6 pairs of Tidal Ref monoblocks, STahl-Tek digital, etc, etc...and while it clearly did things my system could not do, it was not that far off particularly in my room 30x17...and that system had a slice of steel in the treble which (while "accurate sounding") i feel falls down relative to the emphasis of my system on natural tonality. And again, my cost basis is cents on the dollar, so i really do not care. i used that as a learning experience to know that my next step really should be transport...to drive further detail thru my system by picking up the detail from the disc.

again, just one man's opinion and experience and approach.

 

[flez007]

I have had used and new equipment, I would buy all new if me were not me... let me explain:

I have been asked several times from friends who want to get an audio system, I encourage them to buy new, usually this guys keep their stuff for many years, they usually pay using their credit and live happy for many years.

In my case, I am always experimenting, looking for sonic improvements (not deals, I do not make a living out of buy and sell), and in this path I have found new, demo, used and even non-working stuff that keeps me in the path of searching for the best possible sound.

Have I reached my goal?, not yet, and in the process I have lost something besides money, sometimes a "change" gets me several squares back - it is a learning process which I enjoy a lot!

 

[mep]

Those backward steps are a bitch.