best cost no object, cables

PeterA

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In their listening rooms, some people give priority to listening to the hardware, or audiophile “sound effects,” which typically go with a “neutral” tonality by design (developers always voice their products).

highstream, I do not understand what you mean by this comment.

Developers voice their products. They voice them to have a particular sound or they voice them to be neutral or what? And how do we know what neutral is? What do audiophile sound effects have to do with any of this? Thank you.
 

Adco

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What criteria can one use to define neutral? How do we know? Relative to what? I agree it is very hard to determine what is neutral. More differences from different recordings helps me get closer to the cable I want. I do not know what you do.

I know different recordings sound different. I do not want my gear to gloss over these differences by making recordings sound similar. I experienced that with certain cables and sold them. Same with cords and in wall wires. Other gear is the same. This is a cable thread, no?

How do we define best cables? Cost no object is easy, it is simply cost of cable? Best is very different. Different for everyone according to criteria they use.
I don’t post often and wading into a cable discussion may be out of my pay grade here but I feel like you have touched in something here . That is to say “how do we define neutral” (paraphrase)

wouldn’t the extension of that be “how do we determine neutral on our own systems?”

for me I try to keep things pretty simple. When auditioning a cable I will intentionally make a minor but know to me change in equipment and to what degree I hear the change (if at all) tells me much about what’s going on.
Meaning I suppose that if there were a neutrality issue with the new product I’m likely to detect it by how the sound reacts to a change.
An example (test) I do often is remove an Ediscreation Fibre Box II that sits between my Innuos and the Auralic streamer. This has a very specific net result to anything downstream . If (for example) something other than what my intimation to the process happens then I know there is a neutrality issue.
Yes, we could blow a few holes in this process but at minimum it’s a launch off point to determine what’s happening with a downstream cable.
As for the best cables as a more global discussion I’m pretty sure their are some well heeled and altogether more experienced guys on here that could address that
 
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highstream

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I know a truly neutral sound when I hear it — or at least one that crosses my line. It’s an unmistakeable, visceral emotional reaction that continues across certain recordings I know well, as well as one I don't. That said, I find that a warm recording will keep some of that character with a neutral cable or component that I otherwise don’t like, and cause me to re-check myself. What’s been interesting for me is noting how my tolerance range (or enjoyment range) has seemed to broaden, maybe shift, subtly toward neutral, or a little less warm, as my equipment has improved.

A question I’ve long wondered about is if there are slightly warm cables that also come with the same “sound effects” as cables (or fuses) I can’t stomach. I’ve assumed that at some very high price level far beyond mine developers have figured it out.
 
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microstrip

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What criteria can one use to define neutral? How do we know? Relative to what? I agree it is very hard to determine what is neutral. More differences from different recordings helps me get closer to the cable I want. I do not know what you do.

Fully agree with you - it is why I don't valuate comments on "being neutral", although I am surely guilty of using the word in a nonchalant and careless way sometimes. But a cable that makes recordings sound different does not have any practical meaning for me as a criteria to access cables. I do not want my cables to highlight the technical aspects of the recording, just that balance information and musicality according to my preference. Please note that I am mostly a digital listener.

I know different recordings sound different. I do not want my gear to gloss over these differences by making recordings sound similar. I experienced that with certain cables and sold them. Same with cords and in wall wires. Other gear is the same. This is a cable thread, no?

Looking for differences is not my cup of tea. I want real details that make me feel the music better and a lot of known "audiophile"characteristics, as you say. Surely I weight more aspects that are related to real music I have recently listened - my stereo always seems to sound better after going in a concert. It is what I look in my cables.

How do we define best cables? Cost no object is easy, it is simply cost of cable? Best is very different. Different for everyone according to criteria they use.

Yes, cables are system dependent. If it was not for cost it would be an easy exercise for 99% of the audiophiles with a stable system! :rolleyes:
 

microstrip

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I know a truly neutral sound when I hear it — or at least one that crosses my line. (...)

I will not question your abilities - but for me the interesting point is if your "neutral" sound is the same "neutral" sound of others - IMHO a sound descriptor must be statistically valid in the population considering it.

If we put the Lamm ML3 playing side by side with the VTL Siegfried II - I did it many times in the past - they sound so different that we can't say both are neutral. If asked which sounds more neutral to me I will say the Siegfried, but I am sure that some people here will find the opposite. And no debate can prove one of us is right and the other is wrong - IMHO we simply have different views on what is neutral.
 

highstream

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I've given examples here or there and found others agree, as well as my agreeing with reviewers. The KR 274B RK tube, the SR Blue fuse and Sablon’s and TWL’s initial new power cable redesigns several years ago come to mind. Small sample and different systems of course. Over on a fuse thread here, someone wrote about how the SR Orange was neutral, when ironically it had been intentionally designed to have some warmth, apparently via a mid bass bump. Go figure.
 

DaveC

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There are some very concrete things to listen for in determining neutrality.

- Resolution is the most obvious. Without resolution we can't achieve a 3-D immersive soundstage, can't get to a "you are there" presentation, timbre between different instruments is less distinct and real sounding, and vocals sound dull. This is especially important for interconnect cables, because one ic that smears detail can bottleneck an entire system. Very few copper cables are capable of enough resolution, and many that do have other issues. Jorma is probably the best copper cable I've ever tested.

- Lack of fatiguing artifacts is another. Over time it's possible to recognize and categorize types of noise, distortions and artifacts. Some examples are grain from stranded wire, accentuated leading edges from impure silver, there are many more. It's very important to reduce fatigue to a point your stereo doesn't annoy you over time. Also, these things tend to reduce resolution and clarity.

- Tone is a tough one because it's very system specific and there's a wider range of personal preferences combined with a much more subjective aspect to tone vs resolution and fatiguing sounds. This is why I offer choices of IC and PC that differ in tone without one necessarily being "higher end" than another. The thing to remember about tone is warmth smooths over detail and adds a sameness to the sound. OTOH, it's important to have enough warmth to provide realism.

So tone is hard to categorize as neutral, my D4 has been characterized as both too warm and too cool about the same amount so I think it's pretty neutral overall. D5 otoh is consistently characterized as warm. So these things are subjective to a degree for sure, but there's also certainly a lot of statistical agreement on the character of a particular cable.

In doing a lot of listening tests I'd also say that different people are sensitive to different aspects of audio playback, but the one common theme is preference for a 3-D immersive listening experience and that requires a fairly resolving system. There is a psychoacoustic barrier to achieving this that has to do with the system being able to reproduce the detail, the room not butchering it, and your brain as perceiving the detail in the recording as dominant vs the sound of room reflections. This is why Harman has determined that off-axis sound is so important, when reflected and returned to your ear it is closely enough aligned with the direct sound so as not to distract you, and this allows your brain to piece together the soundstage from spatial cues in the recording vs reflected sound dominating, and it also allows timbre to remain more distinct vs speakers that have poor off-axis response.

So, my goals are to offer a cable with enough resolution to achieve a 3-D immersive presentation, closely followed by not creating fatigue, and then having a realistic tone. In over a decade of sending cables to folks to try out it is tone that is the wild card, but I'd also say that over time and as a person's system improves they almost always prefer less warmth. Over the last decade or so my D4 has been around the quality of gear has improved enough I've slightly changed the D4 to be a bit less warm by reducing gold content a fraction of a percent. This is the ONLY way this cable is "voiced", otherwise it's design is purely objective. Some of my other cables (the silver ribbon SC and PC) are not "voiced" at all, they are simply the result of designing the most objectively perfect cable possible, and unsurprisingly, this results in a furthering of the goals I've stated previously.
 

highstream

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There are some very concrete things to listen for in determining neutrality.
...
So, my goals are to offer a cable with enough resolution to achieve a 3-D immersive presentation, closely followed by not creating fatigue, and then having a realistic tone. In over a decade of sending cables to folks to try out it is tone that is the wild card, but I'd also say that over time and as a person's system improves they almost always prefer less warmth. Over the last decade or so my D4 has been around the quality of gear has improved enough I've slightly changed the D4 to be a bit less warm by reducing gold content a fraction of a percent. This is the ONLY way this cable is "voiced", otherwise it's design is purely objective. Some of my other cables (the silver ribbon SC and PC) are not "voiced" at all, they are simply the result of designing the most objectively perfect cable possible, and unsurprisingly, this results in a furthering of the goals I've stated previously.

Dave, thanks for the explanation and clarification. Although current your site does say Neutral up front, which is what caught my attention, I'm not surprised to hear that there is a degree of warmth in at least some of your cables.

I returned to audio about 10 years ago and during that time I've noticed that the tonal emphasis among many developers has moved from producing some degree of warmth to neutral/high resolution focus (the latter two seem to invariably go together, at least in the relatively lower end of pricing). I'm not sure if that's been the result of customer demand, technology driven or just a vacuum in the high end market for a certain kind of sound. Probably a combination, given the market's growth and the variety of ears. The usual arguments against warmth are about sameness and that it hides or rolls off things. However, sameness I've heard across the tonal spectrum, and warmth, well, I think if one sees it as a continuum -- cool - neutral - warm -- there's room to find a great mix of warmth and resolution, as some developers have.

My priorities are, in order:
- Tone -- lightly warm
- Pitch -- I'm sensitive to raised pitch (player pianoish in the extreme; pitch-lowered is rare)
- Staging and focus
- Resolution
 

DaveC

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Dave, thanks for the explanation and clarification. Although current your site does say Neutral up front, which is what caught my attention, I'm not surprised to hear that there is a degree of warmth in at least some of your cables.

I returned to audio about 10 years ago and during that time I've noticed that the tonal emphasis among many developers has moved from producing some degree of warmth to neutral/high resolution focus (the latter two seem to invariably go together, at least in the relatively lower end of pricing). I'm not sure if that's been the result of customer demand, technology driven or just a vacuum in the high end market for a certain kind of sound. Probably a combination, given the market's growth and the variety of ears. The usual arguments against warmth are about sameness and that it hides or rolls off things. However, sameness I've heard across the tonal spectrum, and warmth, well, I think if one sees it as a continuum -- cool - neutral - warm -- there's room to find a great mix of warmth and resolution, as some developers have.

My priorities are, in order:
- Tone -- lightly warm
- Pitch -- I'm sensitive to raised pitch (player pianoish in the extreme; pitch-lowered is rare)
- Staging and focus
- Resolution


My comments are only in the context of cables. I also build my own amps, preamps and speakers and in the context of an audio system everything matters. Amplification devices such as tubes and transistors have their own character, as do resistors, speaker drivers, cabinet material, etc. so the topic can be expanded to look at the effect of warmth WRT all the different parts in an audio system. But as far as cables, they're a passive device and you simply can't have both a lot of warmth AND maximum resolution no matter what you do or how much you spend. My D4 and D5 use gold to achieve warmth and this is better than copper, and my DSR is 17g which is massive overkill for a IC cable, all this is to provide the best compromise possible, but even then there's tradeoff between warmth and resolution. IMO you are better off finding warmth via amplification devices and speakers. So yes, it is indeed possible to have a slightly warm system that can still perform at a high level but this requires a lot more than just looking at cables. OTOH, an overly warm IC cable can preclude you from experiencing what the system is capable of to a larger degree than most might believe.

In your priorities you can't separate staging and focus from resolution. Staging is a result of resolution, so unless you are satisfied with a "they are here" type presentation in which the room acoustics dominate the spatial information in the recording, you need a lot of resolution in order for the electronics to pass the spatial info to the speakers. If you are indeed ok with a "they are here" presentation then the bar is set much lower and you can use anything that floats your boat and you don't need to spend much money either. My D1 cable for <$200/pair would be great. The truth is not many systems achieve a "you are there" presentation no matter how much money is spent because the illusion is easily ruined by a long list of potential issues. A majority of casual listeners and even more serious hobbyists have never heard a "you are there" system either, or haven't recognized it as such if they have experienced it, but they often find that particular system memorable, as having a kind of "magic" most other systems do not.

Tone is important but it's also more subjective and people's tastes do change over time, in fact I can say that a vast majority of people will move towards less warmth as their system improves and as they gain more experience. You get acclimated to different levels of warmth as well, which is part of the reason why inexperienced listeners have horrifically poor judgement, they are acclimated to their own system. They go to shows and wonder why it all sounds like crap vs their modest $5k system that's overly warm and saxophones sound just like trumpets.
 

highstream

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As I noted earlier, I agree that I’ve found myself drifting subtly toward less degree of warmth as the gear has improved. There is a limit though, and my body and the way my attention focuses tell me about it in relatively short order. If I’m wrong about distinguishing between staging/focus and resolution, and I'll have to think about that, they are nonetheless down the pecking order in my priorities. That’s why resolution/neutral gear invariably go back or onto the sales block.

I don’t think cables can be separated from the rest, which is why I don’t agree with those who object to the idea of using cables or similar items as tone controls. In my experience, the tone of just one cable, one fuse or one tube can so dominate in a way that fundamentally alters the whole system’s sound (in a way I don't like), just as easily as one component can. That is, there is no way around it short of pulling the piece in question. While I've been discussing "neutral," it can happen in either direction on the tonal continuum, with certain lushly romantic sounding tubes being an example on the warm side.
 
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i have also found as my equipment improves and my sound improves my tolerance for less warm presentation improves.
 

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