Bass 'Impact' - Side Firing Woofers

[WLGMuzza]

Kia ora all

I'm interested in hearing from people with full range speakers that have side firing woofers - powered or not.

Do you feel the percussive impact on requisite music? If so, what tracks work for you, what sort of listening levels are required to achieve that, and how big is your room?

I'm unclear as to whether this is a trait of the side-firing woofers or something else. Intuitively it seems forward facing woofers are more likely to exhibit the characteristic 'chest-thump'.

Or is this a function of the midrange?

Despite have a reasonable system I very, very rarely experience this sensation, no matter how close or not I sit to my gear. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy music on my system immensely, and this would be the only thing I think I'm missing.

Thanks for your input.

 

[treitz3]

Hello and good evening to you. I hope you do not mind me answering your query, even though I do not have side firing woofers.

Back when I was looking for main speakers, this was one of the things I noticed with side firing woofers...the lack of visceral impact. Yeah, you had the sound but it was lacking "something". IME since then, I have discovered (IMO) that side firing woofers in a system lack exactly what you describe here. Mid range can help, but only with certain frequencies. The Tom hat for instance. Short, sharp and impactful....or has the potential to be.

It's when you move onto lower frequency instruments that, unless the drivers are pointed directly at you and not off to the side) seem to fade rather dramatically when you want to feel the impact and not just hear it. That crispness of the impact, the initial, natural impact is lost when the drivers are faced in another direction. You don't quite feel the impact hit your skin, go through the core of your body, and exit as quick as it hit...with the resulting sound residing beside it or following behind it. It just seemed to me that it was a subdued, slowed, or greatly diminished effect and was not as representative of real sound approximation as I felt it should be compared to other speaker designs.

That's the best way I can describe it and was one of the main reasons I choose not to go that route. FWIW.

If you have ever involuntarily blinked or immediately reacted (like an unexpected shotgun went off ) on an initial impact? You will know what I am referring too.

Tom

 

[Charles S]

I have never experienced side firing woofers but lack of bass impact is the criticism I have heard also. For me, I must have bass impact.

 

[Holmz]

Kia ora all

I'm interested in hearing from people with full range speakers that have side firing woofers - powered or not.

It is somewhat easier to get the forces to cancel if there are a pair of drivers that fire in different directions like a boxer engine.
So the boxes are not moving around as much.

I have heard a lot of these, but I do not have them.
Most of the better ones also were running sub woofers.

Do you feel the percussive impact on requisite music? If so, what tracks work for you, what sort of listening levels are required to achieve that, and how big is your room?

I'm unclear as to whether this is a trait of the side-firing woofers or something else. Intuitively it seems forward facing woofers are more likely to exhibit the characteristic 'chest-thump'.

Or is this a function of the midrange?

Maybe both…
I have seen some conjecture that the frequencies range from 30 to 120 Hz. So there is a visceral part and the harmonics part(s)

Despite have a reasonable system I very, very rarely experience this sensation, no matter how close or not I sit to my gear. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy music on my system immensely, and this would be the only thing I think I'm missing.

Thanks for your input.

There is also the room and its modes.
Many of the SP solutions, a specially when in regular rooms, are limiting the bass to achieve a flat steady-state response.

In a room that is say “treated for the base”, then the DSP ”trimming” is much less.
So the fast transcient thump is not pushed down, in order to also push down the resulting reflections.

And I suspect that sealed boxes may also have more attack and less overhang and post ringing… (maybe?)

 

[Kal Rubinson]

At the wavelengths relative to this discussion, bass output is omnidirectional and the orientation of the woofer driver(s) is less significant than their inherent performance, their integration with the rest of the drivers and their placement with regard to room boundaries. All of the multiple woofer/subwoofer drivers in my system, but one, are side-firing.

 

[Robh3606]

I have a mix in my HT system, 2 pairs of subs one pair forward one pair side firing. Used as subs crossed at 80Hz no difference I can hear or measure.

Depends on how high the woofers are used. As Kal said above as long as they are omnidirectional it should not matter.

WRT "Chest Thumping". In my untreated rooms without careful placement you can easily get too much from room modes driven by placement and room dimensions.

Rob

 

[LL21]

I have heard both the Rockport Altair speakers and the Rockport Arrakis speakers. And I am a bass freak. All day long I could live with either and particularly count the Arrakis as one my favorite speakers of all time. The AG Trio G3 is probably its superior other than from a more practical standpoint, it is simply too big.

And as for chest thump, I not only experienced that...but my pants were flapping during the bass...and when I touched the side of the cabinet and closed my eyes, I literally could not feel any vibration.

 

[Audiohertz2]

At the wavelengths relative to this discussion, bass output is omnidirectional and the orientation of the woofer driver(s) is less significant than their inherent performance, their integration with the rest of the drivers and their placement with regard to room boundaries. All of the multiple woofer/subwoofer drivers in my system, but one, are side-firing.

Err not so simple or most would have figured it out already , radiating output from the woofer is very directional …!

 

[Robh3606]

Err not so simple or most would have figured it out already , radiating output from the woofer is very directional …!

Well not really it depends on the frequency range you are discussing. At low bass, subwoofer it's omni as you go up the driver size and baffle width combine to start giving you some narrowing and directivity. Up at 800-900Hz with a 15" woofer you come in around to about 120/100 degree's on a typical baffle.

The smaller woofers stay omni over a larger range as again cone size and baffle width dictate directivity vs frequency. So the smaller systems are omni over at least an octave or more higher. Just look at polar plots pretty obvious. The first 2 plots only go down to 200Hz but the trend is there.

Overall I wouldn't call any woofer highly directional unless it was part of a DSP steered array. What does happen is playing a sub up too high, so it's location is audible, which is not the same thing.

Rob

8" JBL 708p vs 15" JBL 4367. Third plot Revel F206 plot all the way down. Omni almost up to 1K

 

[Kofi Baffour]

Kia ora all

I'm interested in hearing from people with full range speakers that have side firing woofers - powered or not.

Do you feel the percussive impact on requisite music? If so, what tracks work for you, what sort of listening levels are required to achieve that, and how big is your room?

I'm unclear as to whether this is a trait of the side-firing woofers or something else. Intuitively it seems forward facing woofers are more likely to exhibit the characteristic 'chest-thump'.

Or is this a function of the midrange?

Despite have a reasonable system I very, very rarely experience this sensation, no matter how close or not I sit to my gear. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy music on my system immensely, and this would be the only thing I think I'm missing.

Thanks for your input.

I myself do not have speakers with side firing but a colleague does and I have demoed his setup before (was one of the people that convinced me to get into speakers. I was primarily an IEM/headphone guy)
And it was super concussive, incredible gut rumbling and punching bass thanks to the meticulous placement, treatment, DSP and music used. Speaker didn't sweat at all reaching SPLs that are ear-damaging whilst maintaining control

and the sense of percussive impact depends on many factors:

- Recording itself must have such concussive impacts
- The speaker must be able to reach those transient peaks to average ratios that drive sense of slam
- The in-room response must not have nulls in regions of the low end that drive slam especially the midbass (approx. 60Hz to 200Hz) and the upperbass/low mids (200Hz to 500Hz)
- Instantaneous compression rejection should be a hallmark of the speakers you're using.

And I also went on to achieve same in my space and no, it doesn't matter if front or side firing, just the above parameters must be matched for that to be the experience

 

[Hear Here]

At the wavelengths relative to this discussion, bass output is omnidirectional and the orientation of the woofer driver(s) is less significant than their inherent performance, their integration with the rest of the drivers and their placement with regard to room boundaries. All of the multiple woofer/subwoofer drivers in my system, but one, are side-firing.

I have to agree with Kal on this - the direction that bass drivers face is largely irrelevant in how much bass is heard / felt at the listening position. How many subs are placed facing towards the listener - not that I'm a sub fan. Going back a few years, a Stereophile review summarised one speaker as "Overall, I consider the ??? ???s to be an engineering marvel and, by a clear margin, the best full-range conventional speaker money can buy", after describing the bass as "The quality and quantity of the bass octaves are exceptional—the best I've heard from a conventional full-range system. Bass power, impact, and clarity leave one breathless on orchestral spectaculars". This speaker featured twin 10" bass drivers entirely enclosed within their large cabinet - one facing upwards, the other down. I had these speakers for some years, and I never even saw their bass drivers, but they did deliver very convincing bass, as attested to by Stereophile.

Some years ago, I heard a Canadian brand (can't remember which) with side-firing bass drivers that were very convincing. Modern speakers are generally quite narrow, so installing decent-size bass drivers (10+") is often difficult, so side firing is an obvious option, particularly as opposing drivers can be installed in such a way that their effect on cabinet vibration can be minimised far more effectively than forward-facing ones.

PS - We are talking about genuinely low-frequency bass aren't we?

 

[Joe Whip]

I now have the new Vandersteen Quatro Evo speakers with Counterforce side firing powered subs, two per speaker. Fantastic sound.

 

[Anton D]

I've had Acoustic Research AR 9 speakers and they can deliver speedy 'thump you in the chest' bass. But, I think much of that is the woofer/mid combo rather than just a woofer phenomenon.

 

[WLGMuzza]

Thanks everyone for you replies, very infomative.

It seems others have experienced what I am, a potential lack of bass impact due to side firing woofers. For context I have Genesis G2r speakers in a 144 cubic metre room (8.6 x 6.2 x 2.7), so 2x 12" servo bass per side, with each drviver having it's own 400W amplifier.

In terms of genuine low bass, via the controls on the bass amplifers I have very useable output down to 25Hz, and output to 20Hz. I can get the pants flapping and various cabinets in the room vibrating in time to the music - no shortage low end power.

There are suckouts at 40 and 60Hz, but aside from that I believe the sounds is reasonably balanced. I've used REW to look at the in room response and to see whether I can ameliorate those suckouts via DSP, but REW suggests not.

I'm a bit limited as to where I can place the speakers (second living room) and room treatments I can use, so I guess I'll live with the perceived lack of bass ampact.

I'll have a play with minor positioning and see where that gets me, and I'll keep this thread posted.

Cheers

 

[andromedaaudio]

High Side firing is the best i would add a SUB in between the speakers as well , to create a wall of sound / fill the space with energy
(Ps I have heard many many designs over the years but i still love the design i made 10 years ago ).
Bass fills the room more / sounds more natural

 

[Audiohertz2]

Well not really it depends on the frequency range you are discussing. At low bass, subwoofer it's omni as you go up the driver size and baffle width combine to start giving you some narrowing and directivity. Up at 800-900Hz with a 15" woofer you come in around to about 120/100 degree's on a typical baffle.

The smaller woofers stay omni over a larger range as again cone size and baffle width dictate directivity vs frequency. So the smaller systems are omni over at least an octave or more higher. Just look at polar plots pretty obvious. The first 2 plots only go down to 200Hz but the trend is there.

Overall I wouldn't call any woofer highly directional unless it was part of a DSP steered array. What does happen is playing a sub up too high, so it's location is audible, which is not the same thing.

Rob

8" JBL 708p vs 15" JBL 4367. Third plot Revel F206 plot all the way down. Omni almost up to 1K

Plenty stuff there , but i did say radiating output not freq is what makes the loudspeaker power directional and in doing so affects localization …

Think downward firing woofers vs forward firing ..

 

[mtemur]

I haven’t heard a proper sounding speaker with side firing woofers, at least proper bass.

Side firing woofers is no go for me.

 

[Robh3606]

Think downward firing woofers vs forward firing ..

Hello

Not understanding the comparison you are making?

Rob

 

[Holmz]

Plenty stuff there , but i did say radiating output not freq is what makes the loudspeaker power directional

As the frequency gets towards DC the SPL is omni directional.

and in doing so affects localization …

Our ears are only able to localise things more in the range of 100Hz and above.
So some port chuffing of a 20Hz note in the 100s of Hz is localisable, and a 60 Hz tone is not.

Think downward firing woofers vs forward firing ..

I am not sure what I should be thinking, but I am imagining the speaker looking like it is on a pogo-stick and kangarooing across the room with the beat.